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willb2064 wrote: Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
Except they're not selling board game figures, they're selling a board game
That is a mighty heavy bucket of water to carry to claim that when one buys a board game from a miniatures company, that you are not buying miniatures and basically have no right to think critically about the miniatures or the associated costs of them. For many, the prices and 'value' is based upon the quality and quantity of the miniatures because if a game sucks and the rules are bad or unfun, at least you have miniatures which can be used elsewhere.
And when you are the only 'mars attacks' miniatures on the market, people interested in the designs will forgive material flaws because the alternative to getting those figures is 'nothing'. When you are going to do generic dungeon miniatures, if your quality is lacking, material sucks, or price is too high, people can buy the rules PDF to play your game and buy literally hundreds of better sculpted, better cast, better material stand-ins on the market, many of which for the same cost or cheaper. When people have choice, they will be comparing value.
So to say people can't complain or even judge the value of the figures because 'it is a board game' which is sold by a miniatures company is disingenuous water carrying. The last thing you want to do is tell a large portion of your customer-base which are serious miniature collectors 'It is a board game... you can't judge the quality of the figures."
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
NTRabbit wrote: "It is a board game, judge the figures as board game figures. Whiny wargamers please pay special attention to this before mentioning Mierce again"
Seems fair to me
Then if we judge them as 'board game figures' then why does the cost of the game seem to have quantities which seem to compare to HIPS and wargaming/resin miniatures?
If people judge them as 'board game' then they can easily figure out there are hundreds of alternative miniatures which can meet the quality and price elsewhere.
And calling people 'whiny'... very nice.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 18:02:58
Did you just not realize that the games you mentioned at the same price point each have about twice as many minis? And we can buy them right now and have them right now.
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
And being barley equivalent to full MSRP items available right now is the problem. Especially since many of the people can get it for 30% off MSRP. Why should anyone pledge now instead of wait for retail? Either what is barley equivalent to 100$ retail now will drastically increase in cost or decrease in models which makes it a non-starter at retail, or they will release it for 50$ at retail and add-on packs which means you could get close to the 100$ pledge at retail which means there is no reason not to wait for the models quality and sculpts to be finished.
Why should people give 100$ now for something which is questionable quality, unseen sculpts, no guarantee of good rules and the value now is not better than retail for competing products which means if mantic pumps the MSRP up for retail it will be suicide? It seems I see mantic products in the bargain bin before people even receive their KS pledges. Happened with Dreadball, KoW and Deadzone.
People can form their own opinions on what their time is worth and the value of waiting for a KS, cleaning models or having models of unacceptable sculpts and materials is worth to them. Judging the uality and value of miniatures even if they are 'board game' is totally reasonable. To try to claim they can't and shouldn't be judged as miniatures because reasons is stupid.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
Drizzt says 42 minis, Descent doesn't say how many on the store site, DS currently has 28 in what I assume is the retail box but backers get a current total of 53, and that's with the project still ongoing.
There's nothing stopping you from buying what's available right now instead, but if everyone took that attitude there'd be almost nothing coming out of kickstarter. Seems a bit of a simple minded attitude to take in a system where you have a month to stay in or pull out and don't get billed until the end.
Edit:: Seems like the cardinal rule of "ignore every nkelsch post in a Mantic thread" still holds true, foolish me for answering
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/20 18:18:55
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
Man you guys really do get shafted on prices in Australia. US MSRP for Descent is around $80 and Drizzt and Ravenloft are $65.
NTRabbit wrote: Drizzt says 42 minis, Descent doesn't say how many on the store site, DS currently has 28 in what I assume is the retail box but backers get a current total of 53, and that's with the project still ongoing.
There's nothing stopping you from buying what's available right now instead, but if everyone took that attitude there'd be almost nothing coming out of kickstarter. Seems a bit of a simple minded attitude to take in a system where you have a month to stay in or pull out and don't get billed until the end.
Edit:: Seems like the cardinal rule of "ignore every nkelsch post in a Mantic thread" still holds true, foolish me for answering
Stop carrying water and shouting down everyone who has valid questions or concerns about the KS then. If you allowed people to actually hold opinions about value and miniature quality opposed to trying to silence them, I wouldn't need to call you out on your behavior.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
Man you guys really do get shafted on prices in Australia. US MSRP for Descent is around $80 and Drizzt and Ravenloft are $65.
At least with boardgames they have shipping and import costs to cover, though surely not that much per unit. From my point of view at least Dungeon Saga fits right in pricewise, but not owning anything other than the original HeroQuest I can't compare component quality. Photos of Mars Attacks look like good quality board game minis, so if they meet that standard there's no complaints from me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 18:32:03
NTRabbit wrote: Descent doesn't say how many on the store site
For completeness: 46 models; 8 heroes and 38 monsters. Of those, 8 monsters (the elementals, ettins, shadow dragons and merriods) are fairly sizable figures well larger than a typical humanoid.
Not speaking to quality of any of that or DS, just putting that out there for people who are curious what the comparison looks like.
$460,000 BONUS HERO – Hratth Flamespitter, Salamander FighterSalamanders are hot-blooded creatures in the most literal sense, their very bodies emitting scalding vapours and their weapons channelling fiery energies with which to smite their foes. Hratth is no exception, having a fiery temperament to match his given name. His brood slaughtered in a great battle, Hratth was captured and used as a gladiatorial slave for the entertainment of a cruel master for many years. Winning his freedom, he found that he could not return to his home and so made a life doing the only thing he knows how to do – fight. As a mercenary, he is a tricky proposition – undeniably effective as a fighter but prone to lose his temper with often unpredictable results. It is a testament to the former that so many choose to risk the latter.
1.92$ a mini: Dungeon Saga Kickstarter Pledge with bonus figures - 100$: 12 heroes, 40 monsters
And look what appears in the core box:
Dungeon Saga Core box: 7 Heroes, 22 monsters
If this is released for anywhere over 50$ MSRP, it will be an unsustainable mess. If that reached retail at 100$ that would be a crime.
The 'value' is simply bad compared to retail alternatives right now. And bad/boring looking rules combined with non-existing rules and lots of sight-unseen sculpts and a questionable material and process after seeing the lack of quality on Mars Attacks, there are some legitimate questions. Most people expect 30-40% discount from retail for backing the KS, not 80% markup.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
I wonder when we'll see them proper in Kings of War then?
I like the concept of today's add ons. What would have been cool would have been for Mantic to include a PDF of the rules for the associated DKH game if you buy the figure pack. Maybe they did and I just didn't notice.
Hopefully once they open up a second or third expansion, and follow the pattern of adding a bonus figure or two in to the base game as well as the expansion, we can finally see the value arguments begin to taper off.
Then we can argue over the rules instead. Especially those advanced rules, because who knows what's going to end up in there.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Salamanders are part of the Forces of Nature army, as their own unit. I dunno what that means for them as a race, but probably it at least somewhat implies they won't be getting their own list at this point. Who knows, maybe popularity will take them there. Nature list looks cool, someone linked it in the comments there's a lot of potential to convert it, till they do KoW 2.0.
Probably gonna be a somewhat sower 12k to get the salamander, and then my guess is the next expansion will be the next, or next next goal to hit 500k. But it'll be small, as momentum is lost it'll be important to maintain enthusiasm so the project can dig in and rise up with the last 2-3 days curve, finishing out the expansion hopefully. At least we shouldn't see any large-scale backsliding since there's no bloodshed on the battlefield pledges that are camped and soon to be dropped
If the advanced rules for this are anything like deadzone, we'll be looking at a lot of paragraphs or single-page handling of the concepts. The DZ card deck is pretty simple, mostly there's a priority queue for the AI player's figures and the deck just tells you which one to move next. Extra mats, multiplayer, or extra points games are all handled in a few pages. Hopefully they do something more of a bestiary and character generation with at least a few options for them though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 21:02:04
The comparison of a current product e.g. Descent product(s) for $100 should be against the total of pledge contents at $100 rather than the base game only. Then you have a better like for like comparison.
Also, where does the assumption that the base game will retail at $100 come from? I'm pledging for what is shown and would be amazed if the base game retails at $100 (particularly given the expansion price). The graphic on the front page has the various sub-divisions shown i.e. base game 29 minis currently, advanced rules pack, evil dead booster 9 minis, green menace booster 9 minis, 3d furniture, plus 5 bonus minis (52 minis currently and likely to rise - next stretch soon). Put in $25 more and you're on 71 minis. Quality of the minis is a valid concern - mini count seems to be less of an issue for what appear to be similar boardgame type minis.
Hmm. These add-on prices look pretty good. What do you guys think? It's about the same price as the KoW: Two-Player Battle set, which I actually like because I prefer orcs and undead. May just go for these and the resin skull counters. Any comments?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 21:35:22
I haven't looked at the KoW prices lately, but the undead and elves are definitely worth at least a dollar a piece, so if I needed more of either I would be highly considering those myself.
Mantic should include the Kings of War baby book with any order that has those add ons... muahaha... must spread KoW...
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
I went into this project for $200 (plus shipping) in anticipation of being able to add on some cool stuff. This update finally offers some-- I really don't need any more dice, and while the counters are nice, one set should be more than enough. I may finally get to try out some Mantic skeletons!
Yeah, thought the price for the currently available sprues was a bit too much. Factor in the value of having models that exist paid for a year in advance at least. And they aren't exactly pricey on ebay...
Yeah, and they're cheaper. Granted, I'm not taking 3rd part r/etailers in mind with that... but you're getting 12 skeletons and 10 revenants, 20 of either would be 25 bucks off the rack, and then you get 7 dwarfs to boot. And in just the numbers for ye olde revamped DKH scenarios. Sure, not everyone needs these, but I don't think they're a bad deal at all.
Gaining a surprising amount of ground towards that Salamander, somebody must be finding the add-ons (or just the game itself) worth picking up, which is awesome. I'm really digging the curve on this project.
willb2064 wrote: Was looking forward to this KS, but the value just isn't there for me, and looking at those Mars Attacks production figures, their quality and value proposition are going in the wrong direction. Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
/nods sagely.
The sculpts look nice, but can you imagine the bendage on those skeletons, their limbs and weapons? I've just painted 6 bones skeleton archers, so I can.
nkelsch wrote: The 'value' is simply bad compared to retail alternatives right now. And bad/boring looking rules combined with non-existing rules and lots of sight-unseen sculpts and a questionable material and process after seeing the lack of quality on Mars Attacks, there are some legitimate questions. Most people expect 30-40% discount from retail for backing the KS, not 80% markup.
Don't concur on the rules, but I do wonder what the intended retail of this thing is? They should stick the terrain in to differentiate from other box crawlers, they also need rules for models not in the box to encourage shopping. If they did this for £30-35 on the shelf that would be pretty impressive in terms of impulse buys, or presents. That less than some GW regiment sets...
For what the goal is I would expect it to be similar to the expansion - 18 models for $25 (1 per $1.39 in your calculation) - though it is still a shame there is no orc furniture in it. So quite a few models more to add to the core $100. Expansion probably an indication of retail price as well as Mantic KS's seem to mirror the discounted price you ultimately get online at retail. So a $30-35 expansion and $50-60 core game.