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I just feel like this whole release pattern is out dated. In contrast, I've spent the day lurking the new PP releases which got pushed to my phone halfway through the work day so I could read up on the new casters. PP could have easily said "no rules leaks!" on their forums, but they don't care. They know that getting people talking about how to effectively used their new models gets people interested and buying.

I know I'm ready to drop money on a Brad pre-order + a Lord of Feast and a Rotterhorn for my Una to play a list for him. And I'm eyeing eAbby super fierce.

Instead, here, we get drip fed rumors from Grey Knights, and all the bad ones first that are just turning people off left and right. A good release would have been keeping the Inq and Assassins in the book, making GKs have a bonus of not needing them as separate detachments given their close work with them and just keeping Inquisition a separate release for everyone else along with the dataslate. It's win-win, then. GK players of all types keep their armies and other Imperium folks could buy their Assassins and Inquisitors at a much cheaper rate than $50 for a new hardcover.

But no, GW refuses to use logic and sense. I paid $60 for all the rules for Warmachine forever (or at least Mk2?). For the same cost as the Space Marine book, I'm always apart of the zeitgeist of a new release which makes me wanna go grab minis, which is the real bread and butter.

The GK release is already a stinker for invalidating armies and making people pay more. Now it's a case of people either saying "Nuh-uh, it's not bad for me, because I'm a True GW Scotsman™ " or "Well, what do we have left to work with." Argue over the GKs themselves as much you want, but this is bad business.

 TheKbob wrote:
*snip*

I don't play Warmahordes, so I'm curious - how many times has PP invalidated parts of an army in an update?

 puma713 wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
*snip*

I don't play Warmahordes, so I'm curious - how many times has PP invalidated parts of an army in an update?

Mk1 to Mk2? Probably a bit to a lot, but the game changed a great deal. During Mk2, or at least from my point of view, never. The basic casters released at the start of Mk2 are still the same casters now and are still considered staple parts of good armies. My Cryx can still cause buttholes to pucker if I drop pDenegrah (the basic HQ that comes in the starter box).

Their updates never change models. Much like other games such as Malifaux and to an extent, Infinity (limited knowledge on the latter). As they should, if they make a model too underpowered or underdeveloped, they will release a unit attachment, solo, or caster to help benefit that unit or play style, but in a controlled fashion. There is no points escalation in Games Workshop games. There are some units that are considered stinkers, but that's not quite like "Mandrake" or "Pyrovore" bad. And all it takes is a UA or Solo and they could be turned around if that's in the game's design.

I'm looking forward to the codex. Everyone cried doom and gloom when Tyranids got their codex and I've done just fine with it. I've won 5/6 games I've played with them.
I will be sad to see Psybolts go, but that means I'll just have to develop a new strategy.
I already have the Codex: =][=, so that doesn't bother me in the least.
I also really like the idea of the no witnesses thing. I've always wanted to be able to do that.

in fairness armies are always to one degree or another invalidated with a new release but yeah this is a pretty big one,

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness armies are always to one degree or another invalidated with a new release but yeah this is a pretty big one,

And I'm saying that's bad business. Games should grow and your new stuff should be value add, not take away.

Tyranids lost a complete play style. IG lost a ton of flavorful characters and became "Codex:Cadia" for all intents and purposes. Orks lost force organization changes and units. Spaces Wolves lost them, too, and gained fluff crippling, mind-numbing units. Grey Knights are now losing characters and, what, 9 or so other units? (Inquisitors, Coteaz, Valeria, Karamazov, Warbands, Chimeras, 4 Assassins... missing something?). That's a hell of a bummer of a release. And no, offering to pay more to get it all back is absolutely dumb idea.

Codex: Cadia is not what the IG is. Those characters were almost never taken, in my experience. I never once saw them used outside of anecdotal stuff here on Dakka.

So... a $30 price rise for an 'update' that essentially just removes a bunch of stuff from the previous codex.


I can't help but think that players would be better off just tearing a few pages out of their current codex and calling the job a good 'un.

 insaniak wrote:
So... a $30 price rise for an 'update' that essentially just removes a bunch of stuff from the previous codex.


I can't help but think that players would be better off just tearing a few pages out of their current codex and calling the job a good 'un.

That's what I'm going to do. That and use a marker for points costs. Upgrade complete and under budget.

 TheKbob wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness armies are always to one degree or another invalidated with a new release but yeah this is a pretty big one,

And I'm saying that's bad business. Games should grow and your new stuff should be value add, not take away.

Tyranids lost a complete play style. IG lost a ton of flavorful characters and became "Codex:Cadia" for all intents and purposes. Orks lost force organization changes and units. Spaces Wolves lost them, too, and gained fluff crippling, mind-numbing units. Grey Knights are now losing characters and, what, 9 or so other units? (Inquisitors, Coteaz, Valeria, Karamazov, Warbands, Chimeras, 4 Assassins... missing something?). That's a hell of a bummer of a release. And no, offering to pay more to get it all back is absolutely dumb idea.

actually more along the lines of "Codex: Cadia and Catachans" but I get your point.

I don't disagree that removing stuff is a bad thing. cause it is. (I tend to in the case of 'nids at least more hold it against GW not releasing minis of whats in a codex. that was dumb.)
so yeah in this case GKs are proably the worst off. even if you credit warbands as a single type of unit with multiple differnt weays to build it. even if you ignore Valeria (no mini so her going was to be expected) GKs still lose a fair bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Codex: Cadia is not what the IG is. Those characters were almost never taken, in my experience. I never once saw them used outside of anecdotal stuff here on Dakka.

Funnily enough, I've played against multiple armies that included Chenkov... and have never to date seen Creed on the table.

And pretty much every Guard army I played against in 5th edition included Marbo.

No witnesses sounds so cool

raoiley wrote:
No witnesses sounds so cool

agreed. it sounds great fun. especially as it strikes me as a fun thing to enchourage GKs to take guard allies or something.

How is the vindicare? I always wanted to use one for potent Anti-tank. If they keep it much the same i might get one

raoiley wrote:
I don't need new models. The current ones are all good.
Don't care about losing inq or assassins. Neither is part of GK. A GK army shouldn't be all henchmen. If you're too cheap to buy the rules then use a torrent and stop whining.

Some new war gear, point tweaks, and hopefully cool warlord traits and formations will make things fun and tweak the game play. Lots of awesome potential

Agree 100 percent. Im pretty excited to see what the relics do.

yeah, I imagine the curiass will be the oblogatory 2+/4++ armor or whatever.

If I were to guess, I'd say it might have the Brotherhood Champion's final attack psychic power as the ability.

 jetstumpy wrote:

raoiley wrote:
I don't need new models. The current ones are all good.
Don't care about losing inq or assassins. Neither is part of GK. A GK army shouldn't be all henchmen. If you're too cheap to buy the rules then use a torrent and stop whining.

Some new war gear, point tweaks, and hopefully cool warlord traits and formations will make things fun and tweak the game play. Lots of awesome potential

Agree 100 percent. Im pretty excited to see what the relics do.

"No True GW Scotsman™ would ever run a GK army different from me and should thus be punished to buy $100 worth of rules for what was previously $33!"

The argument, made short and concise. Meaning it's a bad argument because it's entirely based on a fallacy and supports bad business. Remember, same company that said buying is the hobby. In court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Codex: Cadia is not what the IG is. Those characters were almost never taken, in my experience. I never once saw them used outside of anecdotal stuff here on Dakka.

Funnily enough, I've played against multiple armies that included Chenkov... and have never to date seen Creed on the table.

And pretty much every Guard army I played against in 5th edition included Marbo.

I saw Creed a great deal. I know specifically one individual making a full custom "Chenkov" Russian style army because he loved the character. He was sculpting long coats on all his Cadians to match the theme. Great move for him, right? I sold my allied detachment because I could no long field Marbo. He was the literal epitome of forging narratives and always a source of "the lulz."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How is the vindicare? I always wanted to use one for potent Anti-tank. If they keep it much the same i might get one

He hits reliably and the statistical average, as it stands, is "17" (meaning 3 + 4d6 avg = pen result of 17) and he's Ap1. I've had plenty of games where you smoke or cripple a land raider first turn, but also had plenty of games where my 145pt snowflake eats a krak missile and that's that.

 TheKbob wrote:

 jetstumpy wrote:

raoiley wrote:
I don't need new models. The current ones are all good.
Don't care about losing inq or assassins. Neither is part of GK. A GK army shouldn't be all henchmen. If you're too cheap to buy the rules then use a torrent and stop whining.

Some new war gear, point tweaks, and hopefully cool warlord traits and formations will make things fun and tweak the game play. Lots of awesome potential

Agree 100 percent. Im pretty excited to see what the relics do.

"No True GW Scotsman™ would ever run a GK army different from me and should thus be punished to buy $100 worth of rules for what was previously $33!"

The argument, made short and concise. Meaning it's a bad argument because it's entirely based on a fallacy and supports bad business. Remember, same company that said buying is the hobby. In court.

Can you stop pissing in their cheerios please? You got a serious case of "Stop liking what I dont like" going on

Sorry people being excited offends you so

Though go ahead propping your scotsman up with your strawman. A strawscotsman I believe

 TheKbob wrote:


He hits reliably and the statistical average, as it stands, is "17" (meaning 3 + 4d6 avg = pen result of 17) and he's Ap1. I've had plenty of games where you smoke or cripple a land raider first turn, but also had plenty of games where my 145pt snowflake eats a krak missile and that's that.

It's an average of 18 now with the new 7th sniper rules isn't it?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Can you stop pissing in their cheerios please? You got a serious case of "Stop liking what I dont like" going on

Sorry people being excited offends you so

Yes, as soon as they stop saying "You were doing it wrong," or to that effect. Or use a sense of rationality to see taking 1, putting it into 3 parts, and tripling the price is asinine. Because it is. It's not about people being excited. It's people being excited about being taken while what I'm happy about is being ruined and being told "I was doing it wrong." And then further explanation that my meta only allows 2 sources because of the terrible way the game is written. So why don't you try to have some empathy. Because if this kind of crap continues, you won't be getting new releases from Games Workshop.

It's not like people hate 40k. It's that Games Workshop drives you away if stop allowing them to firmly put wool over your eyes. I have committed no logical fallacy. The value of the release has gone down objectively. My army is invalidated. My fun, as it was, is ruined.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

thraxdown wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:


He hits reliably and the statistical average, as it stands, is "17" (meaning 3 + 4d6 avg = pen result of 17) and he's Ap1. I've had plenty of games where you smoke or cripple a land raider first turn, but also had plenty of games where my 145pt snowflake eats a krak missile and that's that.

It's an average of 18 now with the new 7th sniper rules isn't it?

Could very well be. I do not know how the sniper rules changed for 6E to 7E. That number is without accounting for rending, which the old rifle could still rend on 6s which make the average closer to a 20 usually. Was hilarious to get like a 22 armor pen roll.

 TheKbob wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Can you stop pissing in their cheerios please? You got a serious case of "Stop liking what I dont like" going on

Sorry people being excited offends you so

Yes, as soon as they stop saying "You were doing it wrong," or to that effect. Or use a sense of rationality to see taking 1, putting it into 3 parts, and tripling the price is asinine. Because it is. It's not about people being excited. It's people being excited about being taken while what I'm happy about is being ruined and being told "I was doing it wrong." And then further explanation that my meta only allows 2 sources because of the terrible way the game is written. So why don't you try to have some empathy. Because if this kind of crap continues, you won't be getting new releases from Games Workshop.

It's not like people hate 40k. It's that Games Workshop drives you away if stop allowing them to firmly put wool over your eyes.

Clearly the ignorant boobs dont deserve the pleasure of 40k and the 'Truth'

Or it could be that not everyone things or agrees with the things you do. But do continue talking down to people, its sure to garner more support for your position

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Clearly the ignorant boobs dont deserve the pleasure of 40k and the 'Truth'

Or it could be that not everyone things or agrees with the things you do. But do continue talking down to people, its sure to garner more support for your position

If you choose to not listen or believe in facts, then that's on you. Don't be mad at people pointing them out. Your opinion or disagreement with facts does not change them. I'm not talking down to anyone. I was, however, pointing out a fallacy. If they were "supposed to be played" a certain way, then GW would have never released that book. It's the same nonsense that always divides the 40k community; poor rules and poor community support. And now you get the joy of paying triple for it.

Or are you going to say a person with a full Mordrak themed force is doing it wrong or not a true GK army? A spore pod Tyranids list? A Wolf Guard terminator drop pod list? Wazdakka Ork army? Because I'm sure all those people would beg to differ.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Everyone cried doom and gloom when Tyranids got their codex...

And they were right to. The book is objectively worse than its predecessor, a book GW acknowledged as flawed, and it's the second time Cruddace has messed up 'Nids.

 insaniak wrote:
So... a $30 price rise for an 'update' that essentially just removes a bunch of stuff from the previous codex.

Yeah, this really is releasing an hard-backed errata for a high price. This is even more of a cynical short-term cash grap than the damned 1-unit Knight Codex. That was at least joined by a cool model.

While I have chosen to face to codex's release, as it is, with a good attitude, I will be incredibly sad to see Mordrak go.

I have a full unit of ghosts that are some of my favorite miniatures I've painted (I like to think I did a very fine job on them) and he has been my main HQ for basically the entirety of the 5th ed's codex lifespan. I'd considered repainting them as living Grey Knights, but after looking at them again, I decided to just say screw it, they're staying Ghosts.

Who knows, maybe there will be a relic that still enables the ghosts to be used (though i seriously doubt it). But I'll keep playing Grey Knights and try to enjoy it as best I can.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
While I have chosen to face to codex's release, as it is, with a good attitude, I will be incredibly sad to see Mordrak go.

I have a full unit of ghosts that are some of my favorite miniatures I've painted (I like to think I did a very fine job on them) and he has been my main HQ for basically the entirety of the 5th ed's codex lifespan. I'd considered repainting them as living Grey Knights, but after looking at them again, I decided to just say screw it, they're staying Ghosts.

Who knows, maybe there will be a relic that still enables the ghosts to be used (though i seriously doubt it). But I'll keep playing Grey Knights and try to enjoy it as best I can.

I know how ya feel; got a unit of ghost knights my self; I also have to re-evaluate my shunt punch list

I can honestly see both sides of the argument here. It's pretty crappy that you have to pay extra to use models you already have. I just got back from 40k night at my FLGS and we were all talking about it (that is after I got my teeth kicked down my throat by an Eldar/IG list but I digress lol). To me I don't even really need new models. They would be nice but not something I'll be angry about if they aren't present. To me its how slim the codex is going to be. If they reworked how some of the weapons worked and simply added new unit entries in a way that wasn't "oh these strikes squads are just like strike squads but they get teleporters! oooooo" I'm really curious as to what the psilencer is going to be like. I really hope they don't leave it as it is.

I just hope we get some info from inside the codex soon rather than an army builder

For the record, I don't need new models either. I will hope the PA guys get better to justify their points cost, but then that means I'm buying the Dreamforge minis.



Too good and the price is right. It's going to be curious how the hammer and sword change on the dreadknights, too. They could stay the same and just be cheaper, that'd be fine by me. That would mean (130 base + 30 PT + 20 Hv Inc + 10 Sword) 190pt Dread Knights that used to be 265. That feels about right in the world of Riptides and Wraithknights. A fifth wound be just fine, too, but I doubt it happens.

 korghan wrote:
I can honestly see both sides of the argument here. It's pretty crappy that you have to pay extra to use models you already have. I just got back from 40k night at my FLGS and we were all talking about it (that is after I got my teeth kicked down my throat by an Eldar/IG list but I digress lol). To me I don't even really need new models. They would be nice but not something I'll be angry about if they aren't present. To me its how slim the codex is going to be. If they reworked how some of the weapons worked and simply added new unit entries in a way that wasn't "oh these strikes squads are just like strike squads but they get teleporters! oooooo" I'm really curious as to what the psilencer is going to be like. I really hope they don't leave it as it is.

I've bolded the point I think is understated.

We have to buy a new codex and LOSE the models we have already, if we used any =][= in our last army setup.

THEN we have to buy 2 new books/dataslates to use them again.