Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 trexmeyer wrote:


Over 2000 nuclear devices have been detonated in the past 60 years. Probably in excess of one hundred in the western United States alone. Fallout appears to be largely a myth.

The majority of those devices were detonated underground, specifically because of concerns about fallout, which is very, very real. There are more than a few cancer-riddled veterans who spent the early 1950s walking toward mushroom clouds who can vouch for that. Also everyone who worked on that John Wayne Genghis Khan movie (filmed on location in a radioactive wasteland!)...

 whembly wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
whembly, there was a lot of "Zionist" terrorism by two groups, Irgun and Lehi after WW2.

It was roundly condemned by pretty much all Jews outside of those organisations as far as I recall.

Yeah... I realized that... for some reason I thought he was talking about *now*.

when in regard to israel has anything not beeen referred to as now? israel had a brief empire of about 200 years, everything else was under, untill 50 years ago.

What's going on in this thre...

Oy vey!

 Bullockist wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
whembly, there was a lot of "Zionist" terrorism by two groups, Irgun and Lehi after WW2.

It was roundly condemned by pretty much all Jews outside of those organisations as far as I recall.

Yeah... I realized that... for some reason I thought he was talking about *now*.

when in regard to israel has anything not beeen referred to as now? israel had a brief empire of about 200 years, everything else was under, untill 50 years ago.

Sigh... and why should it matter now?

Just think what could have been.

Israel left Gaza in 2005. The vast international aid that flowed to Gaza could have been used to build the foundation of a nation.

Israel left this in 2005:


This is what it looks like now:


Rather than forging economic ties with the world and ya know, building their own nation, they chose to have military ties with Iran and Hezbollah to achieve the goal of the Hamas charter... the destruction of Israel.

The Hamas built tunnels and rocket infrastructures to achieve that objective.

The amount of concrete used to build those tunnels amounted to approximately 800,000 tons. Which is an incredible amount...

It took only 110,000 tons of concrete to build this in Dubai:

 whembly wrote:


The amount of concrete used to build those tunnels amounted to approximately 800,000 tons. Which is an incredible amount...

It took only 110,000 tons of concrete to build this in Dubai:

Spoiler:

Just jumped back in to say that that's a bit of a false equivalence.

Whembly they are an occupied country. Things don't work in an occupied country unless the opressor works with the operessed. ref: any modern fight that wasn't between armies.

Yeah it took concrete to build, have you ever noticed that building materials for the most part are banned? they build it with magic?

If building world ties was so important to building a nation explain why the US was one of the few to vote against...surely freedom.supply a nation who is the enemy of every one close to it? That's peace.

ISRAEL HAS OCCUPIED GAZA FOR 60 YEARS. IF THAT WAS YOUR COUNTRY, WHAT WOULD YOU THINK?

it was egypt who invaded israel, not palestine.

Israel have marked time on the peace process from mid 90's onwards, they chose not to take a great peace.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why support israel? it makes no sense for the US particularly with its worries of terrorism

 Bullockist wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why support israel? it makes no sense for the US particularly with its worries of terrorism

Because Israel doesn't participate in terrorism.

His point is that by supporting Israel, the US is now a target for more terrorist groups.

Thanks whitey, not only are you witty, you also get things

 Bullockist wrote:
Whembly they are an occupied country. Things don't work in an occupied country unless the opressor works with the operessed. ref: any modern fight that wasn't between armies.

So why is Israel in the occupied territories? Explain the justification.

Yeah it took concrete to build, have you ever noticed that building materials for the most part are banned? they build it with magic?

The ones identified as dual-use, yep. There's a reason for that blockaid.

If building world ties was so important to building a nation explain why the US was one of the few to vote against...surely freedom.supply a nation who is the enemy of every one close to it? That's peace.

Um... wut? You're not being coherent here...

ISRAEL HAS OCCUPIED GAZA FOR 60 YEARS. IF THAT WAS YOUR COUNTRY, WHAT WOULD YOU THINK?

Not since 2005.

it was egypt who invaded israel, not palestine.

So, now you admit that palestine as a country didn't exist?

Israel have marked time on the peace process from mid 90's onwards, they chose not to take a great peace.

Wut? Another incoherent sentence...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
His point is that by supporting Israel, the US is now a target for more terrorist groups.

O.o

We'd still be a target even if we didn't support Israel. Osama Bin Laden's own letter to American stated as such.

Israel is in gaza and the west bank to gain territory, nothing more. Trouble is they have done a gak job of it and rely on another countries funds to do it.
They have made a territory that is not able to be held with their own military budget. Since in the 50's Britain made the best attempt vs irregular forces in Maylasia (I don't think anyone has "won" since Israel defininately are not making any effort to pacify the country...in fact I'd argue the opposite. to actually win an irregular war


Israel hold themselves up as people that can build schools ect in Gaza...I gather you see the problem there.

If the US wants a good ally why choose the one country that everyone hates and is on a war footing (singularly in the world about 4 countries. It makes no diplomatic sense.

oh not since 2005? in lebanon not since 1995? I'm glad that people have such short memories of people who invade their country PEOPLE REMEMBER!


Israel had the best peace offer ever off fatah in the mid 90's , they chose not to take it. That is Israels choice.
Lose the 1960's Israel victim mentality....ffs it's 2014

You're misunderstanding. I specifically said "more", whembly.

The US would yes, still be a target for various groups. By supporting more people it will as a consequence be targeted by more also. Just how it is. When you align yourself to more issues, you gain more people who hate/love you. That's just how it works.

I have not stated whether I agree with America supporting Israel or not in saying this, I'm just explaining what Bullockist meant.

whether you agree or not the US supporting Israel makes it a bigger target. is there an anti israel party in the democrats? I've nevber heard of one

 MrDwhitey wrote:
You're misunderstanding. I specifically said "more", whembly.

The US would yes, still be a target for various groups. By supporting more people it will as a consequence be targeted by more also. Just how it is. When you align yourself to more issues, you gain more people who hate/love you. That's just how it works.

I have not stated whether I agree with America supporting Israel or not in saying this, I'm just explaining what Bullockist meant.

I gotcha.

*meh* we're everyone's punching bag.

 Bullockist wrote:
whether you agree or not the US supporting Israel makes it a bigger target. is there an anti israel party in the democrats? I've nevber heard of one

Isn't support of Israel something both parties quietly agree on? Could be wrong.

whembly, when a country is that big and has its finger in that many pies, everyones gonna be looking at it from the corners of their eyes.

 Bullockist wrote:
Israel is in gaza and the west bank to gain territory, nothing more. Trouble is they have done a gak job of it and rely on another countries funds to do it.
They have made a territory that is not able to be held with their own military budget. Since in the 50's Britain made the best attempt vs irregular forces in Maylasia (I don't think anyone has "won" since Israel defininately are not making any effort to pacify the country...in fact I'd argue the opposite. to actually win an irregular war


Israel hold themselves up as people that can build schools ect in Gaza...I gather you see the problem there.

If the US wants a good ally why choose the one country that everyone hates and is on a war footing (singularly in the world about 4 countries. It makes no diplomatic sense.

oh not since 2005? in lebanon not since 1995? I'm glad that people have such short memories of people who invade their country PEOPLE REMEMBER!


Israel had the best peace offer ever off fatah in the mid 90's , they chose not to take it. That is Israels choice.
Lose the 1960's Israel victim mentality....ffs it's 2014

Not sure if serious...

Israel = the only true democratic state in the region. Has forged a lasting peace with both Egypt & Jordan and has equality laws similar to our own. (ie: you do realise that there are Palastinian judges, members of parliament and other high ranking & respected jobs in big, bad, "apparently the most evil nation on Earth" Israel?)

Hamas = Islamist nutt jobs who's only goal in life is to systematically exterminate every last Jew on Earth... and then follow it up by exterminating every non-Muslim, as well as those Muslims who aren't "true Muslims" by their definition, such as the supposedly sub-human Ahmadii Muslims.


But sure, let's all decry Israel as vilest country of all time and throw our lot in with the psychos who want nothing more than to kill us all, because "reasons"

 whembly wrote:

*meh* we're everyone's punching bag.

I have a solution, stop sticking you nose in every ones business....lets face it the only people who believe the whole ":worlds policeman" are dumb americans.It's about power and nothing else. Worlds policeman? Oh yes Britain did it 100 years ago and it did so well for india.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:
whether you agree or not the US supporting Israel makes it a bigger target. is there an anti israel party in the democrats? I've nevber heard of one

Isn't support of Israel something both parties quietly agree on? Could be wrong.

Sorta.

I remember Pat Buchannon (a Republican) claimed that Bush only went into Iraq because of Israel.

whembly, when a country is that big and has its finger in that many pies, everyones gonna be looking at it from the corners of their eyes.

Yup... 'cuz, 'Murrica!

 whembly wrote:

I remember Pat Buchannon (a Republican) claimed that Bush only went into Iraq because of Israel.

I would try to understand his reasoning, but I don't want to hurt myself.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:
Israel is in gaza and the west bank to gain territory, nothing more. Trouble is they have done a gak job of it and rely on another countries funds to do it.
They have made a territory that is not able to be held with their own military budget. Since in the 50's Britain made the best attempt vs irregular forces in Maylasia (I don't think anyone has "won" since Israel defininately are not making any effort to pacify the country...in fact I'd argue the opposite. to actually win an irregular war


Israel hold themselves up as people that can build schools ect in Gaza...I gather you see the problem there.

If the US wants a good ally why choose the one country that everyone hates and is on a war footing (singularly in the world about 4 countries. It makes no diplomatic sense.

oh not since 2005? in lebanon not since 1995? I'm glad that people have such short memories of people who invade their country PEOPLE REMEMBER!


Israel had the best peace offer ever off fatah in the mid 90's , they chose not to take it. That is Israels choice.
Lose the 1960's Israel victim mentality....ffs it's 2014

Not sure if serious...

Israel = the only true democratic state in the region. Has forged a lasting peace with both Egypt & Jordan and has equality laws similar to our own. (ie: you do realise that there are Palastinian judges, members of parliament and other high ranking & respected jobs in big, bad, "apparently the most evil nation on Earth" Israel?)

Hamas = Islamist nutt jobs who's only goal in life is to systematically exterminate every last Jew on Earth... and then follow it up by exterminating every non-Muslim, as well as those Muslims who aren't "true Muslims" by their definition, such as the supposedly sub-human Ahmadii Muslims.


But sure, let's all decry Israel as vilest country of all time and throw our lot in with the psychos who want nothing more than to kill us all, because "reasons"

Not sure if you realise but Israel can do anything they want with the land( with palestinians) with no legal recourse. yep 40 year old olive groves...that's a settlement. what can you do? oh yes go to a military court.
democratic state doesn't mean gak......ally with the one state that everyone hates and where does that get you? oh yes everyone loves democracy automatiically.

I can paint the right wing party of israel in a similar light...and yes they have said it. Why does the US support a group that will lose unless they have military support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 whembly wrote:

I remember Pat Buchannon (a Republican) claimed that Bush only went into Iraq because of Israel.

I would try to understand his reasoning, but I don't want to hurt myself.

sad butr probably not wrong

 Bullockist wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:
Israel is in gaza and the west bank to gain territory, nothing more. Trouble is they have done a gak job of it and rely on another countries funds to do it.
They have made a territory that is not able to be held with their own military budget. Since in the 50's Britain made the best attempt vs irregular forces in Maylasia (I don't think anyone has "won" since Israel defininately are not making any effort to pacify the country...in fact I'd argue the opposite. to actually win an irregular war


Israel hold themselves up as people that can build schools ect in Gaza...I gather you see the problem there.

If the US wants a good ally why choose the one country that everyone hates and is on a war footing (singularly in the world about 4 countries. It makes no diplomatic sense.

oh not since 2005? in lebanon not since 1995? I'm glad that people have such short memories of people who invade their country PEOPLE REMEMBER!


Israel had the best peace offer ever off fatah in the mid 90's , they chose not to take it. That is Israels choice.
Lose the 1960's Israel victim mentality....ffs it's 2014

Not sure if serious...

Israel = the only true democratic state in the region. Has forged a lasting peace with both Egypt & Jordan and has equality laws similar to our own. (ie: you do realise that there are Palastinian judges, members of parliament and other high ranking & respected jobs in big, bad, "apparently the most evil nation on Earth" Israel?)

Hamas = Islamist nutt jobs who's only goal in life is to systematically exterminate every last Jew on Earth... and then follow it up by exterminating every non-Muslim, as well as those Muslims who aren't "true Muslims" by their definition, such as the supposedly sub-human Ahmadii Muslims.


But sure, let's all decry Israel as vilest country of all time and throw our lot in with the psychos who want nothing more than to kill us all, because "reasons"

Not sure if you realise but Israel can do anything they want with the land( with palestinians) with no legal recourse. yep 40 year old olive groves...that's a settlement. what can you do? oh yes go to a military court.
democratic state doesn't mean gak......ally with the one state that everyone hates and where does that get you? oh yes everyone loves democracy automatiically.

I can paint the right wing party of israel in a similar light...and yes they have said it. Why does the US support a group that will lose unless they have military support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 whembly wrote:

I remember Pat Buchannon (a Republican) claimed that Bush only went into Iraq because of Israel.

I would try to understand his reasoning, but I don't want to hurt myself.

sad butr probably not wrong

Man... that is some serious tortuous moral relativism there.

I only said that because I assumed rightly that pat buchanin was political deadwood ( I never even knew who he was until you spouted him) ...and man was i right.

WD wembley!

On a logical note, non pat buchanin, why support Israel?

Bullockist, you keep stating that Israel is an 'occupying power'.They really aren't, by any possible definition of the word. They do not hold political sway, they have no troops garrisoned there, and they make no claims with regards to owning it.

Israel took the territory temporarily after a war with Egypt some time back. They withdrew all troops, dismantled all settlements, and gave the Palestinians political independence back in 2005.

Whereupon the Palestinian populace turned around and legitimately and democratically elected a Government that had an express manifesto of invading/destroying Israel. So Hamas aren't a fringe group that can be separated from the Palestinians, they won a MAJORITY in an election over there. And having won that election, they then proceeded to stockpile as many missiles as possible, butcher all political rivals within the country, and dig assault tunnels on Israel.

Gaza is not an occupied country with Hamas a plucky minority group of freedom fighters. Gaza is an independent country with an elected government that has declared war on Israel. When the V1's came flying into Britain,(Godwin time) we didn't sit here and talk about how the Nazi's were actually a minority in Germany and worry about the consequences of retaliation upon German citizens. We just threw as many bomber craft back as we could. This is a similar scenario, albeit this time with the side being attacked being considerably better armed than the one doing the attacking.

Reality is a thing.

 Bullockist wrote:
Reality is a thing.

The reality appears to be that you keep mixing up the West Bank with Gaza, amongst many other factual inaccuracies.

 whembly wrote:
[

Without US military support Israel could not exist, think about that.

*meh* they've been on their own for awhile dude.

That's somewhat disingenuous there

http://www.haaretz.com/business/u-s-aid-to-israel-totals-233-7b-over-six-decades.premium-1.510592

The United States has provided Israel with $233.7 billion in aid ‏(after adjusting for inflation‏) since the state was formed in 1948 through the end of last year, research by TheMarker has found.

Sure alot/most of that gets recycled back into the the pockets of fat rich white guys who pay for lobbyists and own companies er .. the USA

Since then, U.S. aid has been about $3 billion annually, of which $1.8 billion is military assistance with the rest for civilian purposes. In 1998 Benjamin Netanyahu, in his first term as prime minister, led a drive to convert the civilian portion to military aid, totaling $2.5 billion to $3 billion a year.

Some 70% of the aid is designated for Israeli purchases of military equipment from American companies.

But they're not really "on their own" as you put it.


Which, TBF, is probably just as well as I don't think the nation would have survived otherwise.

And given the ...... "extreme" ... views held by many of their neighbours with regards to Israel's inhabitants one doubts the population would have fared well if the nation had/does fall.

 reds8n wrote:

 whembly wrote:
[

Without US military support Israel could not exist, think about that.

*meh* they've been on their own for awhile dude.

That's somewhat disingenuous there

http://www.haaretz.com/business/u-s-aid-to-israel-totals-233-7b-over-six-decades.premium-1.510592

The United States has provided Israel with $233.7 billion in aid ‏(after adjusting for inflation‏) since the state was formed in 1948 through the end of last year, research by TheMarker has found.

Sure alot/most of that gets recycled back into the the pockets of fat rich white guys who pay for lobbyists and own companies er .. the USA

Since then, U.S. aid has been about $3 billion annually, of which $1.8 billion is military assistance with the rest for civilian purposes. In 1998 Benjamin Netanyahu, in his first term as prime minister, led a drive to convert the civilian portion to military aid, totaling $2.5 billion to $3 billion a year.

Some 70% of the aid is designated for Israeli purchases of military equipment from American companies.

But they're not really "on their own" as you put it.


Which, TBF, is probably just as well as I don't think the nation would have survived otherwise.

Well, yeah... but, he made is sound like the US Military itself was supporting Israel...

Which, honestly, Israel doesn't need that kind of help.

 Bullockist wrote:
you guys lose every time you get in a foriegn war...you just got to stop doing them.

France still speaks French, and Australia still speaks English doesn't it?? I'd say we're actually pretty damn good at the war part of things.





Back on topic.... I'm to the point where, I don't support Israel, but I don't NOT support them either.... At the same time, I definitely do NOT support Hamas.

I recall amongst the T-shirt vendors in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv .. or maybe even Eilat ...? ... back in 199ohcrapwasitthatlongago! aside from the usual "hilarious" and "amusing" slogans and images there was several designs along the line of : image of a gun or a helicopter with the caption underneath of " America don't worry Israel is behind you!"


.. say what you like but gotta admire the Chutzpah there

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:
you guys lose every time you get in a foriegn war...you just got to stop doing them.

France still speaks French, and Australia still speaks English doesn't it?? I'd say we're actually pretty damn good at the war part of things.

Spoiler:

Back on topic.... I'm to the point where, I don't support Israel, but I don't NOT support them either.... At the same time, I definitely do NOT support Hamas.

Let's not forget that the "westward expansion" was also the most successful act of Imperialism in the last few centuries. It was horrific, but textbook. Send in colonists and exterminate the native population.