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Hamas Chain of Command is not totally located in Gaza. Good portion of them are in West Bank and the Leader of Hamas is in Qatar
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
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For those of you who keep asking why the US supports Israel yet are to lazy to do the research it is simply this:
The Suez Canal and a safe strategic forward marshaling point for ground forces to control the overland trade route between the Middle East and Africa.
Also-
Israel is the US's insurance policy against the Suadi's suddenly deciding to become militant.
In all honesty, aside from a desire by some religious types to have a stable group in charge of the holy place they want to visit. Most Americans don't really give a hoot about the Israeli's except that they are an ally and help us project military force in support of american interests.
For those that are judge-mental-"ists" about the US involvement in the area, I would point out that the US didn't create the middle east problem. In fact we tried to talk our European allies from making this and other mistakes after the world war.
Yeah, 'murica didn't create this problem but when the gak boiled over and started to stink up the world we have worked hard at trying to reduce the heat and to put the lid back on.
Later,
ff
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/02 06:08:33
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
focusedfire wrote: Most Americans don't really give a hoot about the Israeli's except that they are an ally and help us project military force in support of american interests.
The Israelis are our "ally" in the sense that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are our "allies". It's a pretty lopsided relationship.
I don't care what they do - obviously both sides in this conflict are pretty enthusiastic about killing tons of Palestinians, so go have a blast I guess, guys - I just would like the US to stop supporting them with equipment and funds.
We have a lot of crumbling infrastructure at home that the 1.1 billion dollars (and counting!) we've thrown at Iron Dome could have fixed up.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/02 06:29:29
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ketara wrote: If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.
That might have something to do with the fact that Hamas is a murderous bunch of thugs who have a tendency to kill people who disagree with them, no?
MrDwhitey wrote: whembly, there was a lot of "Zionist" terrorism by two groups, Irgun and Lehi after WW2.
It was roundly condemned by pretty much all Jews outside of those organisations as far as I recall.
In 1948 Lehi murdered the UN mediator Folke Bernadotte. 1949 an amnesty was granted to all members of the group. 40 years later Yitzhak Shamir had become prime minister. There's even a military decoration named after Lehi. There's been a nominal condemnation, but the actions seem to speak otherwise.
Considering Bernadotte was instrumental in the rescue of thousands of concentration camp prisoners during WWII, I'd say that's a rather strange way to thank him.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Ketara wrote: If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.
That might have something to do with the fact that Hamas is a murderous bunch of thugs who have a tendency to kill people who disagree with them, no?
If that's your belief, then surely you'd be in favour of the Israeli Army attacking in force to destroy the oppressing Hamas overlords of the Palestinian people, right?
Besides which, the electoral roll would seem to indicate that they're not exactly just a fringe extremist movement. They actually, y'know, got a lot of people to vote for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/02 10:09:33
Again... that's the US giving *stuff* to Israel... rather than the US Military "supporting" them. Big distinction... we're essentially one big arms trafficer.
Yeah but the Palestinians are not stupid, and neither are the surrounding countries. They know the shells that are killing Palestinians are supplied by the US, so the only conclusion they can draw is that the US must at best absolutely not care about Palestinian lives and at worst, the US hates Arabs, since it always sides with Israel against the various Arab nations, and keeps Israel propped up.
Any serious answer to the question "Why do people in the middle east hate america" has got to have "Support For Israel" near the top of the list.
Ketara wrote: If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.
That might have something to do with the fact that Hamas is a murderous bunch of thugs who have a tendency to kill people who disagree with them, no?
If that's your belief, then surely you'd be in favour of the Israeli Army attacking in force to destroy the oppressing Hamas overlords of the Palestinian people, right?
Besides which, the electoral roll would seem to indicate that they're not exactly just a fringe extremist movement. They actually, y'know, got a lot of people to vote for them.
I would if it weren't for the fact that such action will just drive more people to Hamas. Bombing to win the hearts and minds of people doesn't really work.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Ketara wrote: If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.
That might have something to do with the fact that Hamas is a murderous bunch of thugs who have a tendency to kill people who disagree with them, no?
If that's your belief, then surely you'd be in favour of the Israeli Army attacking in force to destroy the oppressing Hamas overlords of the Palestinian people, right?
Besides which, the electoral roll would seem to indicate that they're not exactly just a fringe extremist movement. They actually, y'know, got a lot of people to vote for them.
I would if it weren't for the fact that such action will just drive more people to Hamas. Bombing to win the hearts and minds of people doesn't really work.
If Stalinists came to power here, declared war on the US, and started lobbing missiles, you can bet I'd be rooting for the US to blow the crap out of them.
Oh wait. Are we still pretending that Hamas doesn't already have the 'hearts and minds of the people'? (or at least a large chunk of them)
Ketara wrote: If you are prepared to let your Government commit violence and hostility in your name, then you stand complicit. I see no demonstrations against Hamas, no peace movements. Nothing that would leave me to believe that the Hamas Government is not generally representative (to at least 50%) of the people of Gaza.
That might have something to do with the fact that Hamas is a murderous bunch of thugs who have a tendency to kill people who disagree with them, no?
If that's your belief, then surely you'd be in favour of the Israeli Army attacking in force to destroy the oppressing Hamas overlords of the Palestinian people, right?
Besides which, the electoral roll would seem to indicate that they're not exactly just a fringe extremist movement. They actually, y'know, got a lot of people to vote for them.
I would if it weren't for the fact that such action will just drive more people to Hamas. Bombing to win the hearts and minds of people doesn't really work.
If Stalinists came to power here, declared war on the US, and started lobbing missiles, you can bet I'd be rooting for the US to blow the crap out of them.
Oh wait. Are we still pretending that Hamas doesn't already have the 'hearts and minds of the people'? (or at least a large chunk of them)
Your comparison is off. Did the Stalinists live in the UK and then get kicked out because the rest of the world felt like it?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Your comparison is off. Did the Stalinists live in the UK and then get kicked out because the rest of the world felt like it?
...what? Sorry, last time I checked, the Palestinians in Gaza haven't been kicked out of anywhere(they still live in Gaza. hence the existence of a problem?). What's more, in my comparison above that you've quoted, the Stalinists are representative of Hamas, not the Palestinians generally. Thus rendering your above comment completely moot.
Indeed. You say "lobbing missiles with no reason" but that is completely disingenuous.
Okay. Allow me to expand my example for you ( also I never said 'no reason' in that statement, look again).
Let's assume in my example that Britain was once part of a United Nations of Europe that went to war with the USA. The USA won and temporarily occupied Britain, but withdrew all troops nine years ago, giving Britain political independence. The British then immediately turned around and voted in a Stalinist party with an express manifesto of obliterating the USA. The Americans responded by instituting a blockade of Britain. Now nine years on, the Stalinist Party has started launching missiles and amphibious infiltration squads against the US because it knows that if it can't break the blockade, its days of rule are numbered. The US hits the launch sites where it can, but unfortunately, the Stalinists base as many missiles as possible next to schools and hospitals, so that they can trumpet about civilian casualties (whilst trying their best to kill as many Americans civilians as possible).
That more in line with what you were looking for?
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The British then immediately turned around and voted in a Stalinist party with an express manifesto of obliterating the USA.
It's like you don't seem to remember they had other political parties before Hama's.
Because it's irrelevant to my example? The Stalinist party was voted in, and is currently in power at the time of the conflict nine years later in my example. I mean, I could detail every evolution of the Whigs and Liberal Democrats a hundred years before this fictional scenario and more, but it's hardly relevant (unless you have a pressing desire to learn about British political history).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/02 13:46:49
And how far should the Palestinians be punished for supporting Hamas? 1.7 million people live in the Gaza Strip. How much should these people be punished for supporting the militants who are now engaged in a death struggle with Israel? How much sympathy can be wrought if the number of dead escalates into the thousands and the displaced population approaches one million?
I will say this. If my Government was advocating chucking missiles at the US for no reason, initiated hostilities, and we were currently under aerial attack from the US for that very reason, I wouldn't be blaming the US. I'd eithe rbe fleeing the country, or if that wasn't possible, trying to find some way of toppling my Government from whatever insanity had taken them. Because that's what it is. In the same way the UK could not hope to defeat the US militarily right now, Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel. It's war for the sake of war, blood spilt for the sake of spilling blood.
I see no sort of Palestinian attempt to topple Hamas. Why? Because Fatah knows that this time around, the two are playing for keeps. And after Israel crushes Hamas into the ground, Fatah can pick up the pieces whilst still decrying Israel the whole time. So they're more than happy to sit back and watch Hamas be smooshed.
The example in your more recent post is simiplified to the point of being meaningless. You've left out the transplanting of people from the fertile, useable lands they were living in to small strips of useless boarderland. If the US administration in question had pushed the entire population of England into Scotland and Wales, your analogy might by starting to gain some traction, but in the end it's useless to talk about what any of us would do in the same situation. I know I'd probably be supporting Hamas if I was a Palestinian living in Gaza, perhaps even militant enough to fight for them.
The example in your more recent post is simiplified to the point of being meaningless. You've left out the transplanting of people from the fertile, useable lands they were living in to small strips of useless boarderland. If the US administration in question had pushed the entire population of England into Scotland and Wales, your analogy might by starting to gain some traction, but in the end it's useless to talk about what any of us would do in the same situation. I know I'd probably be supporting Hamas if I was a Palestinian living in Gaza, perhaps even militant enough to fight for them.
Far enough on the quote Da Boss, I thought you were referencing my previous post and example, not several posts back.
With regards to transplanting people, this is the first I've heard on Israel having done Soviet style forced migrations. Source please?
EDIT:- I've done some poking around, and the closest thing I can find is the relocation of people from the Al-Shati Camp in 1971, but that was a refugee camp of people fleeing from the Arabic invasions of Israel (so they weren't based there originally to begin with), and they were only being moved to another part of Gaza, not outside of it. Not only that, most of the current Gazan population wasn't alive at the time. So I'm not sure what this transplanting of people you're referring to is.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/02 13:59:04
A lot of people in this thread seem to have their head in the sand. I really can't believe some of the things that people are typing. Just unbelievably ignorant. While I'm not going to get into the issue too deeply, I'll just state one observation on the current situation.
There have been almost 1700 Palestinian deaths since the Israelis started this last operation. The UN estimates that 60% of these are civilian. That's over ONE THOUSAND CIVILIANS killed. I have it on good authority, that actual number is higher, however.
I don't think anyone is disputing that the civilian loss of life is overwhelmingly on the Palestinian side, or that it's tragic. It's when you try to use that as a basis for making some other argument that it gets slippery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/02 14:23:42
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: I don't think anyone is disputing that the civilian loss of life is overwhelmingly on the Palestinian side, or that it's tragic. It's when you try to use that as a basis for making some other argument that it gets slippery.
This, in a nutshell. Civilian casualties are nasty. Alas, war isn't just a matter of subtracting one sides casualties from the other sides ones, and declaring the one with the most the moral victors.
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Not exactly, Ketara. My apologies for being so brief on all these posts, as we could be here all day arguing, and I don't really want to get into this thread too much. Last one on this topic.
In Nazi Germany there were many educated people who read the papers and truly believed that they knew what was going on in the world. The situation has not changed much today, even in the "West".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/02 14:50:33
The 4th and 5th paragraphs are relevant, as is the link to the partition plan which awarded 56% of the land (and most of the best land) to the Israelis.
"Zionists attributed Palestinian rejection of the plan to a mere intransigence. However, Palestinians and Arabs as a rule always reiterated that a partition was unfair: it gave the majority of the land (56%) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7% of it and remained a minority (33% in 1946[88]) of the population.[89] There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45% of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.[89] However, most of the proposed Jewish state was the Negev desert.[43][90] The plan allocated to the Jewish State most of the Negev desert that was sparsely populated and unsuitable for agriculture but also a "vital land bridge protecting British interests from the Suez Canal to Iraq"[91][92]"
Bear in mind that after the 1948 war Israel took even more of that land, and later expansions have made a mockery of even that lopsided distribution of land.
1.8 million Gazans live in an area half the size of Ireland's smallest county.
Oh wait. Are we still pretending that Hamas doesn't already have the 'hearts and minds of the people'? (or at least a large chunk of them)
Hamas has the "hearts and minds" of the people in large part because they have lots of guns, and haven't demonstrated a particular interest Palestinian lives. Also, they control the tunnels, which means they control much of the influx of food into Gaza.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Godwinned! Oh those Westerners, being all Nazi-like by assuming they know what's going on because they read articles from various sources on the subject. If reading articles is not a way to establish an informed opinion, how may I do so without being an accidental Fascist, Barksdale?
Allow me a counterpoint- Germany invented the V-1, the original militarily useless anti-civilian terror rocket. Now, unlike Hamas, they didn't hide them in schools and surround them with children, but they did enjoy launching them at their enemies.
The USA was clearly the more reprehensible of the two nations- their reckless carpet bombing and unnecessary ground invasion killed tens of thousands of German civilians, and the USA suffered very few civilian casualties!
And now for my bonus round- this war had gone the same way 20 years ago! Germany , naturally, had every right to fight its 'rebellion' against the harsh economic penalties that were placed upon it for waging war with most of Europe.
Look, everyone stinks in this situation- and I really doubt that Israel set out to kill civilians, or that the Palestinians want to die for Hamas. Nobody voted in the Nazis because they wanted every Jew slaughtered, it just came with the extra territory and economic boost.
What I oppose is waging war by targeting civilian centers, and hiding your means of warfare behind children. Being inept does not give you the right to plead the victim while firing rockets at cities. For that reason, I sincerely hope that Israel is able to remove Hamas from the region, though I have no idea what it will take to do that. Separating an insurgent from a civilian is nearly impossible if they aren't actively firing a weapon, or launching a rocket.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Rarely have forces like Hamas been destroyed through force- but through delegitimising them, compromising with them, and removing the need for their existence by improving living standards.
However, I am not optimistic that that would work in the case of Gaza, as it is so extreme and the hatreds run so deep on either side.
Meh no biggy this happens all the time israel is pulling a russia... or is it the other way around since it's founding israel has been pushing their boreders then saying hey look when I push them they hit me now I get to shoot them.
I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me.
Da Boss wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_Israel
The 4th and 5th paragraphs are relevant, as is the link to the partition plan which awarded 56% of the land (and most of the best land) to the Israelis.
"Zionists attributed Palestinian rejection of the plan to a mere intransigence. However, Palestinians and Arabs as a rule always reiterated that a partition was unfair: it gave the majority of the land (56%) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7% of it and remained a minority (33% in 1946[88]) of the population.[89] There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45% of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.[89] However, most of the proposed Jewish state was the Negev desert.[43][90] The plan allocated to the Jewish State most of the Negev desert that was sparsely populated and unsuitable for agriculture but also a "vital land bridge protecting British interests from the Suez Canal to Iraq"[91][92]"
Bear in mind that after the 1948 war Israel took even more of that land, and later expansions have made a mockery of even that lopsided distribution of land.
1.8 million Gazans live in an area half the size of Ireland's smallest county.
I didn't realise that we were rolling back to the nineteen forties here. When I made my comment about firing off missiles, I was talking about the current administration and conflict. Quite frankly, I'm not sure you can use the relocation of your great-grandparents as a legitimate reason to start trying to kill civilians.
Well, I suppose you could, but as my great-grandparents went through something similar, and I'm not busy trying to bring down various Governments, I like to think that not everyone has to follow that reasoning.
Oh wait. Are we still pretending that Hamas doesn't already have the 'hearts and minds of the people'? (or at least a large chunk of them)
Hamas has the "hearts and minds" of the people in large part because they have lots of guns, and haven't demonstrated a particular interest Palestinian lives. Also, they control the tunnels, which means they control much of the influx of food into Gaza.
What about the 2005 election results? Note that I don't necessarily disagree with you here about how Hamas has managed to keep the 'hearts and minds' so to speak, but I do think that support of Hamas is based on more than just the power equation and economic coercion.
Da Boss wrote:Rarely have forces like Hamas been destroyed through force- but through delegitimising them, compromising with them, and removing the need for their existence by improving living standards.
However, I am not optimistic that that would work in the case of Gaza, as it is so extreme and the hatreds run so deep on either side.
The funny thing is, I think that this may actually remove Hamas as a power. Perhaps then, things will finally be able to move forward. One thing that is certain is that whilst Hamas controls Gaza, there will be no chance for things to get better. Removing them can only help the equation.
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However, I am not optimistic that that would work in the case of Gaza, as it is so extreme and the hatreds run so deep on either side.
Not to mention in other countries.
I vividly remember being a symposium on Israel/Palestine in Chicago. A guy asked me why we don't see more stories coming out of Palestine, and I suggested its because their telecom network is bad, and most anything directly sourced from there would be written or spoken in Arabic. His immediate response was "Well, that's not Israel's fault!". And I said "I never said it was." He then said "Well, you insinuated it!". And continued to browbeat me for like 5 minutes, deliberately talking over me and making a scene until I Vir Cottoed him and walked away.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Ketara: The reason you're not trying to bring down governments despite your great-grandparents losing their lands might be because you are living a fairly comfortable life in Britain, not still trapped in the same place they were with the people who took the land in question a stone's throw away. It's a little difficult for the Gazans to move on without leaving the area, something the desperate poverty and limitations on movement makes pretty damn difficult.
You seem pretty dead set on having no empathy for the Gazans though, so I may be through arguing with you on this point.
What about the 2005 election results? Note that I don't necessarily disagree with you here about how Hamas has managed to keep the 'hearts and minds' so to speak, but I do think that support of Hamas is based on more than just the power equation and economic coercion.
I think its a lot like Tammany Hall. In case anyone isn't familiar with Tammany Hall, when immigrants would come off the boat stateside Tammany would send guys down to the docks with food to hand out. They also hired thugs to crack the heads of opposing party supporters. The difference with Hamas is that everyone is effectively fenced in by Israel and Egypt, they control a lot of the continual food supply, and a lot of Gaza residents resent the fact it needs to be the case. But they blame Israel because Hamas has lots of guns and control over their food supply.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09 
