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Scythes and Annihilation Barges need ~50 pt bumps.

Lych Guard could be cooler and more useful.

Kangodo wrote:
I was more thinking of MSS activation before the challenge, seems most people don't know how that works.

Necron players have no motivation to go around advertising that. I personally have never even seen it played like that in a game.

"Excuse me opponent, would you like some sound tactical advice? Due to MSS and challenges technically happening at the same time during the fight sub-phase, during your active turn you can force me to expend it uselessly before the challenge puts us in base contact, thereby robbing me of my best chance to live to see the I2 step and fight back. You are welcome!"

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Also, why do you think it's balanced for a 15 point piece of wargear to make a 200 point MC completely helpless in a challenge?

Thing is, you're taking a big risk that it will make said MC completely helpless.

I mean, there's usually going to be a 50% chance that said MC won't be affected - and can proceed to mash the overlord to a pulp.

RivenSkull wrote:
Get rid of that I2, at an army wide level, and there isn't a need for MSS.

I disagree.

I2 isn't the issue - the issue is that even our HQs are WS4, 3 attacks and can't upgrade either. Also, they don't get an invulnerable save as standard, and there's no way to get a cheap one - you either fork out 45pts, or you rely on just a 2+ save.

Really though, the problem is that Overlords seem purpose-built to not do anything. They're just big, slow-moving blocks. Sure, they can be a pain to kill, but they rarely do enough to even warrant the effort. What they really need is more purpose.

- Are they meant as force-multipliers? Ignoring for now they crypteks and a SC have already stolen some of their best support-wargear, if they're meant to be force multipliers then they should be able to do it without upgrades. Otherwise it would be like if marines were charged 75pts for Psykers with 0 mastery levels, and asked if they wanted to pay extra to give them some psychic powers.

- Are they meant to be combat support? If so, why are they so abysmal in combat? Even with a decent weapon (which there are exactly one of) you've got 3 attacks at WS4. Their main weapon is getting enemies to kill themselves - because the overlord is aware that if he tried to do it himself, he'd only cock it up.

- Are they meant to be shooting-support? If so, why do their guns have a maximum range of 12"? In fact, why don't we have a sodding shooty HQ? We are a shooting army, aren't we? Are Tau commanders made to take a HQ who can only take power weapons? Are IG Command Squads made up entirely of models with Chainswords? No? Then why are all our HQs tailored for melee-combat?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Scythes and Annihilation Barges need ~50 pt bumps.

I don't know about Scythes, but I think +30pts would be more reasonable for barges.

 vipoid wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Scythes and Annihilation Barges need ~50 pt bumps.

I don't know about Scythes, but I think +30pts would be more reasonable for barges.

Scythes are better than Valkyries in literally every way except AV, yet cost less.

Better cargo, safer transports, dedicated transports, better weapons, can fire its primary weapon if it jinks, etc.

How does that work?

 Ashiraya wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So when an overlord was choosing their body, prior to the transfer to the metal form, you dont think a female necrontyr would maybe prefer a slightly feminine form - assuming their concept of feminine is the same as most of ours?

The male overlords do not have dicks, so a female overlord should not have breasts or anything either.

Armour tended to not include dick shaping. Femae armour, on the other hand, tended to.

Sig - the necrontyr specifically designed their own bodies - overlords did, at any rate. The codex covers this, so your opinoipn is noted, but is belied by the written words otherwise.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Scythes and Annihilation Barges need ~50 pt bumps.

I don't know about Scythes, but I think +30pts would be more reasonable for barges.

Scythes are better than Valkyries in literally every way except AV, yet cost less.

Better cargo, safer transports, dedicated transports, better weapons, can fire its primary weapon if it jinks, etc.

How does that work?

It works because Necrons are a well balanced army that are highly competitive without being overpowered. Those vehicles may look cheap, but as an army Necrons do not benefit from psychic force multipliers or AM orders and so on, relying almost entirely on a core of solid, good value for points units.

A 50% nerf to two of the best Necron units like you are proposing would simply drop them out of contention for being a strong army. It would also reduce the number of models they can field in a battle, hurting GW sales figures.

Tekron wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Scythes and Annihilation Barges need ~50 pt bumps.

I don't know about Scythes, but I think +30pts would be more reasonable for barges.

Scythes are better than Valkyries in literally every way except AV, yet cost less.

Better cargo, safer transports, dedicated transports, better weapons, can fire its primary weapon if it jinks, etc.

How does that work?

It works because Necrons are a well balanced army that are highly competitive without being overpowered. Those vehicles may look cheap, but as an army Necrons do not benefit from psychic force multipliers or AM orders and so on, relying almost entirely on a core of solid, good value for points units.

A 50% nerf to two of the best Necron units like you are proposing would simply drop them out of contention for being a strong army. It would also reduce the number of models they can field in a battle, hurting GW sales figures.

The aforementioned advantages and the changes to Jink in this edition account for a points increase of that magnitude.

Vendettas received a 40 point increase and multiple nerfs mainly due to a change in Flyer rules in 6th edition. Expecting Anni Barges and Scythes to stay the same cost despite two successive editions worth of buffs is kind of crazy...

RivenSkull wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS have a roughly 50% chance against LD 10 right now. Regular LD would make them completely useless.

Average roll on a 3d6 is 11, so they pass against Ld10 on average, and do even better going down from there. On a regular leadership test they'd be going through around 40% of the time.

A good player would know how to play around that to not make them useless.

Like, why are you sending your overlord against a Hive Tyrant?

Also, why do you think it's balanced for a 15 point piece of wargear to make a 200 point MC completely helpless in a challenge?

Because without it, my 175 point IC sits there at I2, letting everything smash on his T5 body.

Get rid of that I2, at an army wide level, and there isn't a need for MSS.

Necrons are not the only I2 army out there. Tau and Orks fall into that category, and neither of them has something even remotely as powerful as MSS. Ork ICs don't even have access to an invulnerable save in combat, unlike Necron ICs, and Orks are SUPPOSED to be in close combat.

Also, keep in mind that the "assault during your own turn" only works if that charge doesn't put you in BtB with the IC to begin with. As a CD player, I can say its not easy at all for a MC to avoid getting into BtB with a Necron IC because they are often used to tank wounds with their 2+/3++ save while protecting the crypteks or destroyers. About the only time that doesn't happen for me is when a Destroyer Lord is with a squad of Wraiths.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


Necrons are not the only I2 army out there. Tau and Orks fall into that category, and neither of them has something even remotely as powerful as MSS. Ork ICs don't even have access to an invulnerable save in combat, unlike Necron ICs, and Orks are SUPPOSED to be in close combat.

Also, keep in mind that the "assault during your own turn" only works if that charge doesn't put you in BtB with the IC to begin with. As a CD player, I can say its not easy at all for a MC to avoid getting into BtB with a Necron IC because they are often used to tank wounds with their 2+/3++ save while protecting the crypteks or destroyers. About the only time that doesn't happen for me is when a Destroyer Lord is with a squad of Wraiths.

Tau, for example, have vastly superior fire power to compensate for their inferior melee abilities. And...sorry, but I don't see how it's "easy" for a MC to be "caught" by a Necron Overlord. And again: why aren't you assaulting them in your own turn?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The aforementioned advantages and the changes to Jink in this edition account for a points increase of that magnitude.

Vendettas received a 40 point increase and multiple nerfs mainly due to a change in Flyer rules in 6th edition. Expecting Anni Barges and Scythes to stay the same cost despite two successive editions worth of buffs is kind of crazy...

I'm not saying they won't get changed, I'm saying their current price point within the Necron lineup as a whole is justified by the overall performance of the army. Every other flyer and skimmer in the game received the same buffs (albeit without the advantages of Tesla), but you are suggesting the AB should become more expensive than an upgraded Wave Serpent.

With the new codex a large amount of buffs and nerfs will be handed out and Necron players have to hope we come out no worse for it overall. But imagining we made your proposed changes right now in isolation, Necrons would drop out of top tier competitive status immediately.

The problem is that Necrons are top tier right now despite not being overpowered. The entire army is balanced around good, but not top tier, shooting that's limited by its short range and, in general, poor melee capabilities with one notable exception (Wraiths). What adds to it is the total lack of any psychic powers or psychic defense (Prisms aren't any mean of reliable defense as they cannot do anything against buffs).

Minor nerfs are very sufficient to keep the codex in place. Increases by 30+ points are pointless from an objective point of view.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not sure if trolling or...
Any Necrons can be female if you want: they're metal skeletons. Genderless. Hell, nothing stops you from having an all-female Necron army! What do you actually expect to see on a female Necron that's different to a male Necron?

Ment more character wise. It just seems everyone is a male, or is read like they are all males. Would be nice to have a Queen or what ever a Pharoe (sp?) version of a Queen is.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:


Necrons are not the only I2 army out there. Tau and Orks fall into that category, and neither of them has something even remotely as powerful as MSS. Ork ICs don't even have access to an invulnerable save in combat, unlike Necron ICs, and Orks are SUPPOSED to be in close combat.

Also, keep in mind that the "assault during your own turn" only works if that charge doesn't put you in BtB with the IC to begin with. As a CD player, I can say its not easy at all for a MC to avoid getting into BtB with a Necron IC because they are often used to tank wounds with their 2+/3++ save while protecting the crypteks or destroyers. About the only time that doesn't happen for me is when a Destroyer Lord is with a squad of Wraiths.

Tau, for example, have vastly superior fire power to compensate for their inferior melee abilities. And...sorry, but I don't see how it's "easy" for a MC to be "caught" by a Necron Overlord. And again: why aren't you assaulting them in your own turn?

My regular Necron opponent knows that I can get around his large squads, so he doesn't even bother with MSS for them, but he does use them for small royal courts containing the S8 AP2 ranged staffs. Small squad of crypteks with an Overlord in the front tanking wounds....with an assaulting MC, its damn near impossible to NOT end up in BtB with the Overlord. Then there is the Wraith/Destroyer Lord squads who are typically on the offensive, and being fearless with 3++ saves its pretty much impossibl to wipe them out in one phase even if you do manage to assault first, so the "Assault during your turn" strategy isn't very effective in that case either. You also have the CCB which allows Necrons to assault rather easily (and effectively) during their own turn.

Simply put, if the MSS were as weak and easily managed as you are suggesting, they wouldn't be carried by virtually every single IC in a Necron army. It needs to be nerfed, and not just a small points increase.

Anything blast / large blast AP2. Kills of the Royal Court and even if the Overlord survives, the Court stays dead. Buff your models with psychic powers, Necrons cannot dispel them. Drop pods, DS, Infiltrate etc.

MSS aren't weak. They are pretty good. But at the same time, there are (reliable) ways to play around them. And their low price is justified by the weak body they're usually on.

Honestly? With ward gone, I can see necron and dark elder getting the tyranid/ork treatment and getting "better internal balance" while taking away any competitive edge they had. To be fair they are more shooty oriented, so probably wont be as hamstrung, but the writing is on the wall at GW. Make the goodguys powerful and heroic, and everyone else the NPC factions.

 Orock wrote:
Honestly? With ward gone, I can see necron and dark elder getting the tyranid/ork treatment and getting "better internal balance" while taking away any competitive edge they had. To be fair they are more shooty oriented, so probably wont be as hamstrung, but the writing is on the wall at GW. Make the goodguys powerful and heroic, and everyone else the NPC factions.

Uh... Tyranids are pretty awful internal wise, orks are a bit better but they still have plenty of issues between "Must Haves and Must Not have", and even then Ward had the best internal balance when it came down to it between the three main book writers.

Also Ward never wrote DE, seriously,

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Necrons are not the only I2 army out there. Tau and Orks fall into that category, and neither of them has something even remotely as powerful as MSS. Ork ICs don't even have access to an invulnerable save in combat, unlike Necron ICs, and Orks are SUPPOSED to be in close combat.

That seems a bit deceptive.

Tau might not have any combat ability as good as MSS,but they have some of the best firepower in the game. And, since necrons are more shooty than CC, I'd happily sacrifice MSS if it meant access to that kind of firepower.

Also, whilst an Ork Warboss doesn't have MSS, it can have 4 S10 AP2 attacks at WS5 - considerably better than what an overlord puts out. And, of course, it may well be cheaper. A Warboss with Power Claw is still 5pts cheaper than the base Necron Overlord.

Anyway, I honestly have no idea what should happen to MSS (I really can't think of any way to make it more reasonable, without making it worthless), nor any idea what will. But, what I don't want is for MSS to be nerfed/removed, and then Overlords being otherwise unchanged - as if they're fine.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The problem is that Necrons are top tier right now despite not being overpowered. The entire army is balanced around good, but not top tier, shooting that's limited by its short range and, in general, poor melee capabilities with one notable exception (Wraiths). What adds to it is the total lack of any psychic powers or psychic defense (Prisms aren't any mean of reliable defense as they cannot do anything against buffs).

Minor nerfs are very sufficient to keep the codex in place. Increases by 30+ points are pointless from an objective point of view.

Actually, I largely agree with this. Most of the changes that are needed aren't major. Small tweaks here, simple clarifications there, and the army should be fun to play with and against. I think from a rules perspective, the only thing that needs an overhaul is RP, and really, just a few added limitations would clean it up enough even if they keep the clunky mechanic intact.

Here are my suggestions:

MSS - seems to be a hot topic, instead of a major rules change or outright removal, how about make it 1-use only.
RP/EL - add in stipulations that it can't be used if the attack has the ID rule or if no wounds are dealt but the model is removed as casualty, to prevent conflicts with Sweeping Advance and other such rules.
Tesla - no extra hits with snap fire hits is almost a given and really is enough of a fix.
Nightscythes - points increase, unit that disembarks can only snapfire.
CCB - lose the sweep attacks, rider loses the IC rule.
Deathray - make it a beam or torrent weapon.

Finally, throw in some points increases and decreases where needed, and the jobs done.

Just revert RP to WBB. It was far superior rule.

MSS is difficult to balance because on the one hand, it's a very cheap upgrade, but on the other hand, it's part of a body that's either very expensive or sucks in melee (Phaseshifter or not), in army that, in general, sucks at melee.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

MSS - seems to be a hot topic, instead of a major rules change or outright removal, how about make it 1-use only.

If you want it to never see play, sure.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

RP/EL - add in stipulations that it can't be used if the attack has the ID rule or if no wounds are dealt but the model is removed as casualty, to prevent conflicts with Sweeping Advance and other such rules.

You could return to the old WWB rule, with Resurrection Orbs overriding that effect.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Tesla - no extra hits with snap fire hits is almost a given and really is enough of a fix.

But.. why? Are we also going to say you can't twin-link snapshots?

I mean, I thought the effect happening on 6s was one of the main paints of the rule - si that it *does* interact with snapshots.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Nightscythes - points increase, unit that disembarks can only snapfire.

No objections, but then I don't use them.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

CCB - lose the sweep attacks, rider loses the IC rule.

Might depend on what happens to Overlords.

Out of interest, how do you feel about the Overlord and barge being linked (i.e. if you kill one, both die; RP bringing back the barge as well etc.)?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Here are my suggestions:

MSS - seems to be a hot topic, instead of a major rules change or outright removal, how about make it 1-use only.
RP/EL - add in stipulations that it can't be used if the attack has the ID rule or if no wounds are dealt but the model is removed as casualty, to prevent conflicts with Sweeping Advance and other such rules.
Tesla - no extra hits with snap fire hits is almost a given and really is enough of a fix.
Nightscythes - points increase, unit that disembarks can only snapfire.
CCB - lose the sweep attacks, rider loses the IC rule.
Deathray - make it a beam or torrent weapon.

Finally, throw in some points increases and decreases where needed, and the jobs done.

Getting the impression some Necrons have been giving you a hard time recently.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just revert RP to WBB. It was far superior rule.

MSS is difficult to balance because on the one hand, it's a very cheap upgrade, but on the other hand, it's part of a body that's either very expensive or sucks in melee (Phaseshifter or not), in army that, in general, sucks at melee.

Aren't MSS takable on Lords as well?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just revert RP to WBB. It was far superior rule.

MSS is difficult to balance because on the one hand, it's a very cheap upgrade, but on the other hand, it's part of a body that's either very expensive or sucks in melee (Phaseshifter or not), in army that, in general, sucks at melee.

Aren't MSS takable on Lords as well?

Yes, on an even worse body

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Aren't MSS takable on Lords as well?

They are, though I struggle to find a reason to take Lords - with or without MSS. Like Overlords, I think they could do with having more purpose and synergy with necrons in general.

I wouldn't mind Lords losing access MSS, though I'm not sure how much that would solve.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Honestly? With ward gone, I can see necron and dark elder getting the tyranid/ork treatment and getting "better internal balance" while taking away any competitive edge they had. To be fair they are more shooty oriented, so probably wont be as hamstrung, but the writing is on the wall at GW. Make the goodguys powerful and heroic, and everyone else the NPC factions.

Uh... Tyranids are pretty awful internal wise, orks are a bit better but they still have plenty of issues between "Must Haves and Must Not have", and even then Ward had the best internal balance when it came down to it between the three main book writers.

Also Ward never wrote DE, seriously,

yes, they are pretty awful, hence the sarcastic quotes, like what they got was supposed to make up for what they lost. And I was just saying that dark elder are going to get the nid/ork treatment along with necrons, and that necrons don't have their spiritual liege matt ward to protect them from it anymore. I know he had nothing to do with the dark elder.

Tekron wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Here are my suggestions:

MSS - seems to be a hot topic, instead of a major rules change or outright removal, how about make it 1-use only.
RP/EL - add in stipulations that it can't be used if the attack has the ID rule or if no wounds are dealt but the model is removed as casualty, to prevent conflicts with Sweeping Advance and other such rules.
Tesla - no extra hits with snap fire hits is almost a given and really is enough of a fix.
Nightscythes - points increase, unit that disembarks can only snapfire.
CCB - lose the sweep attacks, rider loses the IC rule.
Deathray - make it a beam or torrent weapon.

Finally, throw in some points increases and decreases where needed, and the jobs done.

Getting the impression some Necrons have been giving you a hard time recently.

A good Necron army will give most other armies a hard time (except for maybe Eldar). They've been a top tier army ever since their 5th edition codex came out.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Tesla - no extra hits with snap fire hits is almost a given and really is enough of a fix.

But.. why? Are we also going to say you can't twin-link snapshots?

I mean, I thought the effect happening on 6s was one of the main paints of the rule - si that it *does* interact with snapshots.

Tesla predates Snap Fire, so it was never really established that is was one of the main parts of the Tesla rule. Other effects that trigger on To Hit rolls of 6 have been given this nerf, so its not unreasonable to expect it on Tesla.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

CCB - lose the sweep attacks, rider loses the IC rule.

Might depend on what happens to Overlords.

Out of interest, how do you feel about the Overlord and barge being linked (i.e. if you kill one, both die; RP bringing back the barge as well etc.)?

Actually, I don't mind the RP bringing back the barge. I do mind the free S7 AP2 Armourbane hits though, especially since my Daemon chariots lost the ability to sweep with the change in Chariot rules.

What are you Necron players thoughts on Quantum Shielding? My regular opponent is kind of torn. He likes the AV13, but hates the part about keeping up with which vehicle has the bubble popped, plus the added headache of multiple shots being resolved. Would you rather keep the same shield rule or have a blanket AV increase with a points increase to go with it?

Tekron wrote:
Necron players have no motivation to go around advertising that. I personally have never even seen it played like that in a game.

"Excuse me opponent, would you like some sound tactical advice? Due to MSS and challenges technically happening at the same time during the fight sub-phase, during your active turn you can force me to expend it uselessly before the challenge puts us in base contact, thereby robbing me of my best chance to live to see the I2 step and fight back. You are welcome!"

I do have that motivation!
Tournaments players already know this and I would happily trade in a few wins if that means people stop with the "CRONS ARE OP"-nonsense.
It's quite annoying if people look at you as if you are some WAAC-player because they don't know how something works.
And I don't like winning because my opponent is unaware of the rules, it takes the joy out of winning for me.

And I'd prefer it if people focus on the things that are actually too strong instead of the things that seems OP when you take a small peek at it.

Reanimation Protocol:
It sounds very strong, but people tend to forget Necrons pay 13 points for that.
Comparing that to Fire Warriors, Ork Boyz or Space Marines makes them look less 'OP'.
Against a wound with AP5 a Necron Warrior has a 65% chance of surviving.
A Tactical Marine has a 66% chance of survival, and for only 3 additional points they have much better rules, more power in melee, the option to take Heavy Weapons and protection from AP4.

MSS:
If you are charging, it's nearly impossible to get affected by MSS.
Besides that Overlords are around 175 points with their average equipment; Lords only 75 if you skip the 3++.
And even if you DO charge badly and get your IC to kill itself, the other models will probably win combat and you end up Sweeping the entire unit.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
What are you Necron players thoughts on Quantum Shielding? My regular opponent is kind of torn. He likes the AV13, but hates the part about keeping up with which vehicle has the bubble popped, plus the added headache of multiple shots being resolved. Would you rather keep the same shield rule or have a blanket AV increase with a points increase to go with it?

I think QS is okay, and I would prefer to keep it.
Reason: It's something special and I prefer special stuff over "AV12 all around".

The downside of QS is that:
-It only works on front and sides, which leaves them very vulnerable on the rear.
-It means they all have AV11 on the rear.
-Once you get a single pen, it leaves you with an AV11 vehicle.
-That is also open-topped and it will die.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

A good Necron army will give most other armies a hard time (except for maybe Eldar). They've been a top tier army ever since their 5th edition codex came out.

What's wrong with that? They have done well for three editions so now it's time to exile them to the display cabinet for a few years?

I don't understand these proposals to nerf them out of top tier status. Necrons are not overpowered, they are just plain good, and they are hanging in there largely on the basis of those rules you want to neuter. Don't we want more top tier armies, not less?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

I do have that motivation!
Tournaments players already know this and I would happily trade in a few wins if that means people stop with the "CRONS ARE OP"-nonsense.
It's quite annoying if people look at you as if you are some WAAC-player because they don't know how something works.
And I don't like winning because my opponent is unaware of the rules, it takes the joy out of winning for me.

MSS avoiding shenanigans like that are a bit WAAC themselves in my opinion. It requires telling your opponent that they have to use their wargear before they want to. Really it's exploiting the fact that MSS rules were written before challenge rules were released. Technically legal but leaves a bad taste, especially when Necron CC HQs are so weak without it.

Tekron wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I was more thinking of MSS activation before the challenge, seems most people don't know how that works.

Necron players have no motivation to go around advertising that. I personally have never even seen it played like that in a game.

"Excuse me opponent, would you like some sound tactical advice? Due to MSS and challenges technically happening at the same time during the fight sub-phase, during your active turn you can force me to expend it uselessly before the challenge puts us in base contact, thereby robbing me of my best chance to live to see the I2 step and fight back. You are welcome!"

Can someone explain that, or at least point me to a thread that does ?

New codex usually means new models, so I'm envisioning new plastic pariahs.

Seems like every race is also getting some giant walker (knight, morkanaut,etc) so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a super sized Necron or gargantuan scarab monstrosity

Kangodo wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I will say that as a Chaos Marine player, MSS feel like they're designed to target CSM. Our codex encourages (forces) us to make or accept challenges with our characters. This means that for 15 points necron players get at worst a 50% chance to kill of our leadership. Maybe if fearless negated MSS it wouldn't be so bad.

So? Charge them!
It's your turn, so first you force them to activate MSS and THEN you challenge, keeping your awesome Character out of harms way.

The problem is that no matter what, I have to challenge or accept a challenge. The only way out of it I see is force feeding my squad leaders who are highly unlikely to last longer than one round. Then in the next round of melee combat my opponent gets to challenge first and my lord goes down because he apparently has a death wish.