Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 djones520 wrote:

No it is not. It is not easy to grab the army of a knife wielding wild child. People need to get that through their head.

The arm of a claiming to be suicidal child who doesn't have to stab you, just themselves. The action was to prevent the child from injuring themselves. Sounds like the best solution. Alternative would have been pepper spray as it would have been the only way to deal with a person at range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:


I have done it on at least 20 seperate occassions this month alone. I have a brother who's 11, prone to tantrums and is quickly approaching puberty. He thinks knife flashing is acceptable. Presumably the officers were wearing Stab-Proof vests at the very minimum having recieved a call about a knife.
You distract the girl as mention, quickly step inside the arce of the swing and grab hold of the wrist, hook your fingers inside hers and around the knife handle and pull it out. I can do it solo and 4 cops can't? Bull gak

When the child is claiming to be suicidal and has been seen by both the baby sitter stabbing at herself. Cops being in god damn suits of armor doesn't prevent a child from stabbing themselves. The act of rushing the child to disarm her physically would have given her plenty of time to cut herself with the knives... which is what she was threatening and they were trying to prevent.

And your 11 year old brother throwing tantrums with a knife is going to murder you and your family in your sleep. You better be getting him help and not just bro-fisting on how cool you are for disarming him even with a knife.

Prevent the child from harming herself by subjecting her to a potentially lethal shock. Riiiiight.

If they couldn't take a knife off an eight year old, what the hell are they doing in the police.

I can see tasing a teenager, but christ almighty, an eight year old is taking the piss.

Edit: Murder him and his family in his sleep? Hah!

I mean, like all these stories, we weren't there, and perhaps there's some information I'm missing. But with the information as presented, I take the parent's side.

From the sophisticated military armor I understand current police to generally be wearing, along with the training in using measures such as four on one tactics and takedown holds that they're supposed to have, I would have thought that a taser might have been unnecessary.

 daedalus wrote:
From the sophisticated military armor I understand current police to generally be wearing, along with the training in using measures such as four on one tactics and takedown holds that they're supposed to have, I would have thought that a taser might have been unnecessary.

I don't have extensive knowledge of police training and operations, so I can't say for sure. I don't understand the outrage though. The child wasn't harmed.

 daedalus wrote:
From the sophisticated military armor I understand current police to generally be wearing

The average officer has no reason to wear their armor on what they assume to be a standard mental health call that suddenly changes direction without warning.

They were only lucky the kid wasn't harmed. And that's if you think being tased doesn't count as harm.

My dad is a retired policeman, I just told him this story. His reaction was to shake his head and say anyone who can't take a knife off an eight year old doesn't deserve to be in the police. Though he's retired from a police force armed with sticks, not guns, so I guess he has a different perspective.

 Random Dude wrote:
I don't have extensive knowledge of police training and operations, so I can't say for sure. I don't understand the outrage though. The child wasn't harmed.

Well, the child wasn't injured. "Harmed" is a more ambiguous concept I'm not sure anyone without first hand evaluation of the situation can evaluate.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
I'm pretty sure a kid who feels the need to act out whilst in possession of a knife isn't going to react rationally when confronted by Americas finest.

I do wonder what led to the babysitter calling the cops though. A kid acting out? something more?

be interesting to see how this develops.

Maybe the kid was threatening to stab the babysitter or cut herself. If anyone is brandishing a knife you should call the cops.
however, the cops acted ridiculously and it was excessively violent, imo. Easy enough to grab her arm and take the knife away. Job done.

No it is not. It is not easy to grab the army of a knife wielding wild child. People need to get that through their head.

I have done it on at least 20 seperate occassions this month alone. I have a brother who's 11, prone to tantrums and is quickly approaching puberty. He thinks knife flashing is acceptable. Presumably the officers were wearing Stab-Proof vests at the very minimum having recieved a call about a knife.
You distract the girl as mention, quickly step inside the arce of the swing and grab hold of the wrist, hook your fingers inside hers and around the knife handle and pull it out. I can do it solo and 4 cops can't? Bull gak

stab-proof vests? Officers on standard duty do not wear Kevlar vests.

Well that is dumb. Pure stupidity. What happens when someone jumps them with a knife? Where I come from the cops where stab-proofs all the time, its just common sense. Better to have and not need than need and not have is my opinion.
And like I said, if someone calls up the cops the cops should come prepared. If you said that there's a guy on the top floor with a shotgun or rifle, the cops send in men in bullet-proof vests with flashbangs and assault rifles. If you called the Fire Brigade they won't show up without a hose pipe and go "Well, guess we should blow the thing up." You don't see the ambulance show up with no gurney, trauma gear or first aid kit. So why should the cops show up without the proper equipment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

No it is not. It is not easy to grab the army of a knife wielding wild child. People need to get that through their head.

The arm of a claiming to be suicidal child who doesn't have to stab you, just themselves. The action was to prevent the child from injuring themselves. Sounds like the best solution. Alternative would have been pepper spray as it would have been the only way to deal with a person at range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:


I have done it on at least 20 seperate occassions this month alone. I have a brother who's 11, prone to tantrums and is quickly approaching puberty. He thinks knife flashing is acceptable. Presumably the officers were wearing Stab-Proof vests at the very minimum having recieved a call about a knife.
You distract the girl as mention, quickly step inside the arce of the swing and grab hold of the wrist, hook your fingers inside hers and around the knife handle and pull it out. I can do it solo and 4 cops can't? Bull gak

When the child is claiming to be suicidal and has been seen by both the baby sitter stabbing at herself. Cops being in god damn suits of armor doesn't prevent a child from stabbing themselves. The act of rushing the child to disarm her physically would have given her plenty of time to cut herself with the knives... which is what she was threatening and they were trying to prevent.

And your 11 year old brother throwing tantrums with a knife is going to murder you and your family in your sleep. You better be getting him help and not just bro-fisting on how cool you are for disarming him even with a knife.

Ok, first, he's cool and that's my business. He thinks its cool to see me do it. Second, I was explaining exactly how easy it is.
A child of 8 years old has reaction speeds so slow that it would barely register the knife being taken out of its hand by the time it happens. The cops stand about 6 feet away, the child is not going to stab itself. Then move quickly. The child won't even know what happened. Easy and simple.

Okay, taser, 8 year old girl. I only got one thing to say: was that taser gay-looking?

Small town (2200) cops here as well as county sheriff's ALLwear kevlar vests...all the time, everywhere they are on duty. Just sayin.

And there is nothing "standard" about 1) any mental health call and 2) a mental health call that has a knief wielding, suicidal person of any age.

Would a baton to the head be more acceptable?

 Deadshot wrote:


A child of 8 years old has reaction speeds so slow that it would barely register the knife being taken out of its hand by the time it happens. The cops stand about 6 feet away, the child is not going to stab itself. Then move quickly. The child won't even know what happened. Easy and simple.

Yes... a Kid who is holding knives to her own body to stab herself, from 6 feet away you will grab the knife before she stabs herself. The report showed from multiple witnesses that the child was holding the knife to her own body to cut herself.

And then the mother sues because the child was allowed to stab herself by police due to inappropriate 'rushing' to get the knife.

Negligent mother was gonna sue 'regardless'. Terrible child is terrible. No one should be required to get knife wounds while trying to subdue a suicidal person simply because they are 8 years old.

impartial investigation and eye witness showed the cops acted fine and it was the least risky of the options available to them and best way to safeguard the suicidal child. Going all last action hero is all good in your mind but hardly works out in real life.

 daedalus wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
I don't have extensive knowledge of police training and operations, so I can't say for sure. I don't understand the outrage though. The child wasn't harmed.

Well, the child wasn't injured. "Harmed" is a more ambiguous concept I'm not sure anyone without first hand evaluation of the situation can evaluate.

You're right. I should have said injured.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
And there is nothing "standard" about 1) any mental health call and 2) a mental health call that has a knief wielding, suicidal person of any age.

From an EMT's standpoint, you'd be surprised how inaccurate that statement is.

Mental health calls don't just mean medical mental issues and suicides.

So, my question is: does the tazing get covered by medical insurance as the first session of electroshock therapy this girl will need as part of her psychiatric evaluation? I fail to see why an 8 year old girl waving a knife around isn't the big deal in this case. Seems like there's some issues going on there. Without knowing the exact situation involving the events in question (positioning, room arrangement, etc) I'm willing to accept that this was the safest way to deal with the situation in a manor that does not harm the officers or the (I don't even know what word to use here... let's just go with the safe one) child.

Also, since I'm amazed this has gone to the 2nd page without someone saying this already: "she was asking for it." I'm sorry.

 Byte wrote:
Would a baton to the head be more acceptable?

Unless you're actually trained to use the baton for disarmament... no.

Baton will shatter bones.

 Byte wrote:
Would a baton to the head be more acceptable?

On an 8 year old child? Doubtful.

It'll be interesting to see what the investigation reveals of the girl's actions directly proceeding the taser being deployed - was she actively attempting to harm herself and/or others, and was there any reasonable prospect of preventing said harm by methods other than a taser.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Would a baton to the head be more acceptable?

On an 8 year old child? Doubtful.

It'll be interesting to see what the investigation reveals of the girl's actions directly proceeding the taser being deployed - was she actively attempting to harm herself and/or others, and was there any reasonable prospect of preventing said harm by methods other than a taser.

That's way too reasonable! We should rush to judgement without knowing all the facts.

Police wear total body concealing stab proof vests now? That's amazing. I wonder when the military will get those types of vests.

Knowing that these things completely cover arms and hands, it makes perfect sense that the officers should have been reaching for the knife then. No reason at all to fear massive lacerations on their appendages.

*rolls eyes*

 Deadshot wrote:

Ok, first, he's cool and that's my business. He thinks its cool to see me do it. Second, I was explaining exactly how easy it is.
A child of 8 years old has reaction speeds so slow that it would barely register the knife being taken out of its hand by the time it happens. The cops stand about 6 feet away, the child is not going to stab itself. Then move quickly. The child won't even know what happened. Easy and simple.

Are you seriously comparing disarming your little brother, a person who knows you and likely trusts you, to disarming an 8 year old irrational, stranger?

At any rate, once she picked up the knife there is no way this situation could have ended well as even physically disarming an 8 year old places the girl at physical risk and the officers at legal risk, particularly given her race.

Sometimes police wear vests, but not always.

Depending on how sharp the knife is, it wouldn't take much force to slash someone up quite well, which even a child would be capable of doing. Of course a child is more likely to make slash type gestures and not stabby ones, its not that easy to grab someone who is slashing a knife around violently, it is easier to grab someone who is trying to do a lot of damage with a knife and doing arcing upward stabs.

Kids come in all shapes and sizes, and most aren't very rational or empathic.

I sure as hell wasn't there thankfully, because that looks like a crappy situation to be in regardless.

 djones520 wrote:

Knowing that these things completely cover arms and hands, it makes perfect sense that the officers should have been reaching for the knife then. No reason at all to fear massive lacerations on their appendages.

Not to mention genitalia, the organs right about at stab height for an 8 year old.

 dogma wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Knowing that these things completely cover arms and hands, it makes perfect sense that the officers should have been reaching for the knife then. No reason at all to fear massive lacerations on their appendages.

Not to mention genitalia, the organs right about at stab height for an 8 year old.

Also that lovely, lovely artery running along the inner thigh about that same height that bleeds very profusely when severed.

This is a horrible situation and Im sure the cops are feeling gakky. But sometimes things like this are unavoidable.

Yet again the lethality of the 8 year olds is displayed.

Those bastardos are going to take over the world, I tell you.

Didn't know standard kevlar vests covered arms now. I'd use the Tazer to. Beter safe than sorry, both for the kid and the officer (instead of getting a knife in the leg or groin.) The woman should go raise that kid like a mom should instead of sueing. At least that way you'd might be sure she wont go on a suicidal hissifit again.

I think the bigger question than how she is going to interact with law enforcement in the future is what drove the kid to grab a knife and get all slashy with it that hte cops had to be called.

the kid already needed help, and sounds like no one is going to be addressing that.

My brother, from the age of 5 has suffered from extreme anger and other issues (he is like 4 years younger than me, and recently stopped wetting the bed etc).

By the time I moved from home as the age of 17, he has attacked me with shovels, axes, rakes, shears, hammers, brooms and sporting goods. Very scary

Very rarely was I harmed. Children who are angry are far from intelligent and its easy to disarm them even when you are unarmed. I personally feel, a tazer is a bit over the top. If you, being 15+ years older than an 8 year olds, cannot disarm them when they ARE NOT ACTIVELY ATTACKING YOU then you have screwed up. Its pretty easy.

I will admit, I was not present and dont know all the facts, nor am I taking away any blame from the kid. But I wouldnt have tazered them in that situation. Plenty of nicer ways to go about it, especially when the public is watching you.

 Swastakowey wrote:
My brother, from the age of 5 has suffered from extreme anger and other issues (he is like 4 years younger than me, and recently stopped wetting the bed etc).

By the time I moved from home as the age of 17, he has attacked me with shovels, axes, rakes, shears, hammers, brooms and sporting goods. Very scary

Very rarely was I harmed. Children who are angry are far from intelligent and its easy to disarm them even when you are unarmed. I personally feel, a tazer is a bit over the top. If you, being 15+ years older than an 8 year olds, cannot disarm them when they ARE NOT ACTIVELY ATTACKING YOU then you have screwed up. Its pretty easy.

I will admit, I was not present and dont know all the facts, nor am I taking away any blame from the kid. But I wouldnt have tazered them in that situation. Plenty of nicer ways to go about it, especially when the public is watching you.

Indeed. I and my older brother fought lots of times in our youth but we never really hurt each other despite some serious anger going on.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yet again the lethality of the 8 year olds is displayed.

Those bastardos are going to take over the world, I tell you.

Dude... my youngest kid is 8.

And it's scary with the stuff he does now... o.O