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Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
What I'm pointing out here is that, on average, Tau are faster learners than human beings. That would translate to military skills as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The problem, I think, isn't that Tau are BS3- it's that rank and file Guardsmen are BS3. Fire Warriors are all professional soldiers- by all rights, they should be on the same level as Storm Troopers and Veterans. Tau should have the same BS as Stormtroopers and Veterans.
That being said, I also don't think that mortal humans (excepting the top.001% of humanity) should be on the same level as a Space Marine. By rules, a good human soldier is on the same level as the veteran of hundreds of battles that has lived over a century.
Points (and in a few cases, number of shots) should be adjusted for the new BS, but as I see it, to reflect fluff, Orks and conscripts should be BS1. They both barely know how to point the thing, let alone hit something without shooting a LOT. A snap-shot is made when you have no idea how to fit something or you don't have time to aim, and human conscripts wouldn't have any practice... and Orks wouldn't really care. Ya just need more dakka if ya ain't shooin' it.
Guardsmen should be BS2. They've had a few weeks of training and maybe a few battles, but they're not professional soldiers.
Professional soldiers (including Fire Warriors) should be BS3. We'll throw Guardians on this list as well, given their thousands of years and training. They know how to shoot a gun well and keep doing so under fire. They live, breath, and die war.
Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and other super-humans should be BS4 (as well as things with high levels of technological assistance for targeting, like Eldar and Tau tanks and suits).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 21:33:03
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 23:39:36
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Guardsmen are sort of like Defilers. They really, really want to be two different things at once, things that are not entirely compatible.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
Heck, you'd think that after getting their Titans torn to ribbons by hastily-constructed Tiger Sharks, that *some*one would have had the bright idea to strap a bunch of anti-aircraft weapons to a Titan or to make an anti-aircraft version of the Hunter-Killer missile, but no.... that's apparently a little too hard for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 13:46:38
EmpNortonII wrote: Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Conscript = the guys handed a rifle after stepping off the soviet train in WW2 movies. "When the man carrying the rifle gets shot, the man following picks it up" = BS2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ3bzg-Tvt4
BS1 = shooting an invisible target, aka not aiming.
BS2 = PDF = cops, lazy nat guard/reserve/army guys who barely passed marksmanship after basic/ait.
BS3 = Guard = non-lazy guard/reserve/army guys, your hilly billy possum hunters
BS4 = Vets = US Marines (everyone is a marksman), your hilly billy squirrel hunters
BS5 = Marine Sharpshooters, your redneck prairie dog at 300yd snipers
BS6 = Some rare specialist $#!+. The quickdraw skeet shooter pistol guys, etc.
The original post has a strong "buff my army" feel to it. Request a massive advantage, offer a minimal loss to it:
Ork Boys should be WS5, but only BS1 in fair exchange.
The fact that Tau are already at WS2 just makes it funnier as a trade off.
Thunderfire cannons should be S10 and use large blasts. To balance that out, they shouldn't be able to move and fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 17:41:46
My scale is
1: Someone who is bad at shooting or has to fire quickly, ect.
2: Your average joe.
3: Trained infantryan.
4: Veteran or superhuman (i.e battlesuits).
5: Commander level or veteran superhuman.
6: Command superhuman and experts.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Ashiraya wrote: >Implying US Marine Sharpshooters are better shots than gosh-darn Space Marines.
Well, taken literally I said that the the best (or one of, whatevs nationalism) of human military (USMC) are as good as the average space marine... Assuming the USMC is using a modern sighted rifle, single firing and not moving out of shooting position and the power armoured space marine is running around with a 100-1000 year old gun they don't know how to re-engineer anymore, with a 20+ kg chainsword in one hand and one-handing his rifle which sprays explosive rpg style style rounds in the other John woo style. Yeah, I think that's a non-preposterous claim I can stand by. Especially since mutant little people (ratlings) are BS4 and the marine analogs (vets) are also BS4.
Since 40k is a D6 game, it helps to be able to abstract stuff. For example, touching the edge of your base into a ruin doesn't give you cover, it defines the outer edge of where your guy can duck behind some bricks at the last second where he hears a mortar/arty shell whistling in on him. An assault cannon isn't firing precisely 4 shots - its spraying dozens, 4 or so of which will be aimed accurately enough to rip through even the densest piece of 4+ armor while keeping the enemy fearful enough of moving/charging that they will generally not stand up and run in sprinter's position. Power armour means the marine stands triumphantly as he strides towards the foe, not cowering behind every brick like a guardsman. that's where you can forge the narrative. It certainly isn't rolling on warlord and psychic tables to figure out what your good at :p
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Co'tor Shas wrote: My scale is
1: Someone who is bad at shooting or has to fire quickly, ect.
2: Your average joe.
3: Trained infantryan.
4: Veteran or superhuman (i.e battlesuits).
5: Commander level or veteran superhuman.
6: Command superhuman and experts.
Your average joe *is* someone who is bad at shooting. He doesn't really know how to shoot the gun... that's the thing. It requires training to use a weapon beyond "point it and hope you hit."
Your average Guardsman is probably not a professional soldier, as Guardsmen die so often and in such volume that almost none actually live long enough to call it a profession. Reading about the Damocles Crusade, even Imperial tank regiments operated off the "just wash the tank out and give it a new crew 15 minutes later" philosophy, as Tau railguns that failed to blow up the tank would hit at such speed that the crewmen would be sucked through the slug-sized hole and rendered messy paste.
At any rate, if we look elsewhere in BS 3, does it make sense that the average humans be on the same level as a Space Marine Scout (a professional soldier)? Should Vets or storm-troopers really be better than a SM scout? Don't they both represent the very best humanity can achieve without a century of experience and full genetic adaptation to war? Should BS4 Eldar reservists *really* be on the same level as genetically-modified super-soldiers with a century, if not more, of nearly non-stop combat experience?
I think my chart makes the most sense. Untrained is 1, competent yet mediocre (most US Army) 2, good (Army infantrymen and Marines) 3, and 4 is beyond natural human.
With that in mind, it may also be true that Tau sniper drones may be a little *too* awesome for what they are and what they do. There isn't a single more dangerous sniper unit in all of 40k. While a point of pride, I wonder if that might not be too much.
Ashiraya wrote: >Implying US Marine Sharpshooters are better shots than gosh-darn Space Marines.
Well, taken literally I said that the the best (or one of, whatevs nationalism) of human military (USMC) are as good as the average space marine... Assuming the USMC is using a modern sighted rifle, single firing and not moving out of shooting position and the power armoured space marine is running around with a 100-1000 year old gun they don't know how to re-engineer anymore, with a 20+ kg chainsword in one hand and one-handing his rifle which sprays explosive rpg style style rounds in the other John woo style. Yeah, I think that's a non-preposterous claim I can stand by. Especially since mutant little people (ratlings) are BS4 and the marine analogs (vets) are also BS4
I think you're giving Marines too much credit in a way. Individually, members of the various SOCOM branches are all-around better than US Marines, because they have higher recruiting standards. You couldn't take a handful of random Marines (even infantrymen) and expect them to hit a half-dozen pirates, in seconds, on a boat rocking with the waves from another boat rocking with the waves, while surrounded by civilians.
... in the real world, that doesn't matter much, of course. Marines have been used to perform operations (pilot rescue) that other branches use special ops for. Marine infantry probably could have pulled off the Osama bin Laden raid as well as the SEALs did (or better, since it would have been Marines instead of the Army providing the helicopters). Marines are scary on the battlefield because they have their own air support (and any who question the importance of *this* need to look at how hard the USAF is trying to scrap the most cost-effective and objectively effective CAS platform in the world, because Air Force brass could literally not care less about soldiers on the ground), its own tanks, its own artillery, and melds them into a perfectly-fitting combined arms force, in a manner most branches of most armed forces don't.
US Marines would be a lot closer to Space Marines than to Guardsmen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 19:25:27
all in all, because of the s5, i think that the BS 3 is jsut for balance, not based on fluff, because now-a-days, Tau have amazing eye sight, they just take time to focus, but even the super advanced amazing suits are BS 3 , and that is what seems off to me about Tau, why are veterans of AT LEAST 8 years (in the fluff) of war, still shooting like the year 1 recruit?
I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field.
Why should Shas'vre be BS4? At this point all other unit leaders should be +1 BS/WS depending on their shooting/combat orientation. This makes Tau (more) unbalanced in comparison to most shooty units.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Except that's not true. The AdMech invent new things all the time, it just doesn't allow it outside certain methods. While that is limiting, it's far fom "literally no imagination".
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 20:36:59
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?
Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
So disregarding everything that's in the Imperium's advantage, they suck? You don't say? There's probably some regiments that are rubbish. There's also some regiments that are DKoK, or Catachan, or Cadian, and so on and so forth. The advantage of the Tau is that their forces, just like their technology, hold an even standard across the board. If the Imperium shows up with shoddy regiments, so-so ships, and uninspired commanders, they're going to lose. If they show up.
You'll also note that, AFAIK, the Tau have only faced Warhound Titans so far. There might not be a need for the Imperium to invent counters to the Tau, it might just be that they need them to be there when the fighting starts.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Except that's not true. The AdMech invent new things all the time, it just doesn't allow it outside certain methods. While that is limiting, it's far fom "literally no imagination".
They literally have no imagination. That's using the the term literally, literately, not figuratively. They remove the creative half of the brain and replace it with a computer. They want to remove the creativaty from there brains. This is not to say they could not be better than the tau, they just aren't. And that pretty much some up the individual parts of the imperium, could be better, but are not. Because then they would be killed for heresy.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
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BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Your average joe *is* someone who is bad at shooting. He doesn't really know how to shoot the gun... that's the thing. It requires training to use a weapon beyond "point it and hope you hit."
Your average Guardsman is probably not a professional soldier, as Guardsmen die so often and in such volume that almost none actually live long enough to call it a profession.
Why do you keep saying this?
I mean... the fluff objectively states that you're wrong. PDF spend years training, and Imperial Gaurd are recruited from PDF.
Not counting Cadians, the "generic" Guardsmen, who can "field-strip a lasgun at age 10" as a bare minimum.
I mean... where are you getting this idea that the average Guardsmen is some country-bumpkin who was handed a lasgun on Thursday then throw into the meat-grinder on Friday? There is absolutely zero fluff pointing to that being the standard form for Guard recruiting and training.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 22:59:25
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?
Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.
Wow, something more than an energy drink.
It's time to go to work, so I can't keep going, but I'll handle this much.
You've named two items. The first, Mk VIII armor, was the creation of the Mechanicus. The prior version, the Mk VII, was created during the last stages of the Horus Heresy. It took TEN THOUSAND YEARS for the Mechanicum to improve- slightly- on an already-existing design. The Tau took six thousand years to go from throwing spears to rail guns on tanks.
For the second... do you have a source saying that the Mechanicus was actually responsible for Hellfire rounds? I can't find any. Granted, it's great that someone in the Imperium is capable of creating *any*thing new, but I imagine there's a reason on Space Marines use Hellfire rounds.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?
Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.
Wow, something more than an energy drink.
It's time to go to work, so I can't keep going, but I'll handle this much.
You've named two items. The first, Mk VIII armor, was the creation of the Mechanicus. The prior version, the Mk VII, was created during the last stages of the Horus Heresy. It took TEN THOUSAND YEARS for the Mechanicum to improve- slightly- on an already-existing design. The Tau took six thousand years to go from throwing spears to rail guns on tanks.
For the second... do you have a source saying that the Mechanicus was actually responsible for Hellfire rounds? I can't find any. Granted, it's great that someone in the Imperium is capable of creating *any*thing new, but I imagine there's a reason on Space Marines use Hellfire rounds.
You're moving the goalposts.
As a reference for the Hellfire rounds, it's either the Mechanicus or some Techmarines, i.e. the Mechanicus. The Chapter Techmarines are responsible for production and resupply of the Chapter's weapons. You'll note that I didn't ask you for a reference to make sure that the Earth Caste actually built the AX-1-0, since I thought that was patently obviousl, but while we're at it, what's your source?
You'll also note that the AX-1-0 is a weapons swap, in which case every single Razorback, Land Raider, Whirlwind, Chimera, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Titan, and so forth has to count as well.
For further innovation, there's the Nemesis Class Fleet Carrier, which is even from M41.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Basic Tau troops should not be BS4, that's a little too far IMO and would make the game more unbalanced than it already is. However, as some people have already pointed out, it makes perfect sense for more experienced warriors to have a BS of 4 rather than 3. If we take a look at the codex, the only non-vehicle unit that has BS4 doesn't even have a ranged weapon (ethereal guard) which is totally ridiculous.
Would a BS3 shas'vre suddenly jump to a BS5 commander? Almost certainly not. Suit shas'vres should be BS4 because that is the most logical conclusion and actually makes the upgrade worth it. As for the riptide however, many people would say that BS4 would make its power borderline silly (although realisticly, only skilled battlesuit pilots would be put in riptides)
13045273 wrote: Basic Tau troops should not be BS4, that's a little too far IMO and would make the game more unbalanced than it already is. However, as some people have already pointed out, it makes perfect sense for more experienced warriors to have a BS of 4 rather than 3. If we take a look at the codex, the only non-vehicle unit that has BS4 doesn't even have a ranged weapon (ethereal guard) which is totally ridiculous.
Would a BS3 shas'vre suddenly jump to a BS5 commander? Almost certainly not. Suit shas'vres should be BS4 because that is the most logical conclusion and actually makes the upgrade worth it. As for the riptide however, many people would say that BS4 would make its power borderline silly (although realisticly, only skilled battlesuit pilots would be put in riptides)
And really, all a BS4 riptide would result in is less markerlights needed to make it BS6 to avoid Gets Hot
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13045273 wrote: Basic Tau troops should not be BS4, that's a little too far IMO and would make the game more unbalanced than it already is. However, as some people have already pointed out, it makes perfect sense for more experienced warriors to have a BS of 4 rather than 3. If we take a look at the codex, the only non-vehicle unit that has BS4 doesn't even have a ranged weapon (ethereal guard) which is totally ridiculous.
Would a BS3 shas'vre suddenly jump to a BS5 commander? Almost certainly not. Suit shas'vres should be BS4 because that is the most logical conclusion and actually makes the upgrade worth it. As for the riptide however, many people would say that BS4 would make its power borderline silly (although realisticly, only skilled battlesuit pilots would be put in riptides)
And really, all a BS4 riptide would result in is less markerlights needed to make it BS6 to avoid Gets Hot
A Town Called Malus wrote: Though less points spent on markerlights is more points spent on pulse rifles and suits, so could have a bit of a knock on effect.
The points not spent on those markerlights would go into shas'vre upgrades. The majority of the army would still need markerlights anyway
