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2014/08/26 22:57:49
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
The idea that Anita could be a poisonous influence. That is why I emphasized that part.
Sigvatr wrote: I've made my point very clear. There's no evidence for media such as books, music, TV or video games to have a direct relation to a change in character / attitude and therefore, there...isn't.
Then why are you neglecting to quote and answer the part of my post that is relevant to books, music, and movies, and only just mention the part about video game? Also, why do you speak of change of character when we argue for change of opinion? That seems pretty different to me.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/27 03:40:24
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I think they understand what you said, they are just perplexed by how inane it is.
You're one to talk about inane, you've blindly defended her through this entire thread and some how ignored the towering evidence that she is a fraud.
Not that will but look up her relation to Bart Baggert, a known fraud artist that she worked for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 03:40:53
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2014/08/27 03:50:14
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Ravenous D wrote: You're one to talk about inane, you've blindly defended her through this entire thread and some how ignored the towering evidence that she is a fraud.
Not that will but look up her relation to Bart Baggert, a known fraud artist that she worked for.
There is no 'towering evidence' of fraud as there is not actual fraud. If there was anything remotely like real fraud and not just some weird internet butthurt by a minorty of warped haters there would have already been a lawsuit. As it is there hasn't been anything beyond very minor characters, and that is being charitable, making youtube videos. What actually exists is a small group of warped internet posters that are letting their passion for gaming cloud all good judgement and critical thinking.
I don't know her, I don't care about her really one way or the other, but what I do care about, and what is actually poisoning to gaming community is the sheer hate generated and misogyny tossed around, not someone trying to have a dialogue about female representation in gaming. All the latter means is that gaming can be taken as a serious subject for inquiry, the former is just an embarrassment to everyone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 03:52:50
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/08/27 03:55:07
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
The idea that Anita could be a poisonous influence. That is why I emphasized that part.
She has done conferences with EA and many others and gets paid to spread her gospel. They are even using her as a consultant on Mirrors Edge 2. So she is actively censoring games based on her views. She's been proven a fraud, I think anyone with an iota of morality can see that as her poisoning western gaming.
The fact she has admitted she is not a fan of video games, and has no interest in games that appeal to their target demographics I find it incredibly intellectually dishonest of her to come in and tell everyone that they aren't allowed to have escapism fantasy. Its like those jerk kids at the beach that cant stand other kids having fun and run around kicking over sand castles, but the second some one stands up to them, they cry and run to their parents and lie through their teeth.
Ravenous D wrote: You're one to talk about inane, you've blindly defended her through this entire thread and some how ignored the towering evidence that she is a fraud.
Not that will but look up her relation to Bart Baggert, a known fraud artist that she worked for.
There is no 'towering evidence' of fraud as there is not actual fraud. If there was anything remotely like real fraud and not just some weird internet butthurt by a minorty of warped haters there would have already been a lawsuit. As it is there hasn't been anything beyond very minor characters, and that is being charitable, making youtube videos. What actually exists is a small group of warped internet posters that are letting their passion for gaming cloud all good judgement and critical thinking.
I don't know her, I don't care about her really one way or the other, but what I do care about, and what is actually poisoning to gaming community is the sheer hate generated and misogyny tossed around, not someone trying to have a dialogue about female representation in gaming. All the latter means is that gaming can be taken as a serious subject for inquiry, the former is just an embarrassment to everyone else.
Speaking of warped, you don't even know the meaning of fraud, she has deceived people and is getting money. As Crow just mentioned, EA and the developers of Mirrors edge are paying her to consult on their games.
Omg... you just dropped the misogyny feminist scapegoat. You just devalued everything you said.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2014/08/27 08:06:24
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Ironically, after producing a video on the subject, Anita turned HERSELF into a straw feminist.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, let's keep in mind that her video series are just her opinions. She is not an academic, she does not carry out academic peer reviewed research. Her videos are just Anita pontificating on thing that p*** her off.
Gaming journalists give her opinions far too much credence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 09:24:26
2014/08/27 10:38:22
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Ahtman wrote: What actually exists is a small group of warped internet posters that are letting their passion for gaming cloud all good judgement and critical thinking.
Well, can we consider that it is just about their passion for gaming?
Oh wait, I remember the thread on Phil Fish on the video game section. Yeah, definitely could be just about gaming .
Mechanical Crow wrote: She has done conferences with EA and many others and gets paid to spread her gospel.
Yeah, okay. So she will influence video games from company that cares about what she has to say, got it. What about the poisonous part?
Oh, censorship like adding more female character that are not just Miss Male Character or Booby McBoob, that is censorship. Because we all know adding new, better stuff is all that censorship is about .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/27 11:00:29
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
If you hate her so much why do you follow her around so intensely? All press is good press.
EA doesn't give a gak if you're watching her videos because you hate her, they just see "people are talking about this" and "people supported her kickstarter" so maybe she's on to something. I have neither the desire or time to look in to all of her views but maybe her making in roads might actually allow "legitimate" representatives a foot in.
Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation and his Mate talk about it:
you all might find it interesting. They talk about it for the first 35 minutes.
I personally don't see it that big of a deal considering how common it bloody is.
What I don't like is the hype build up for games that have only been shown in a beta. Like look at watch dogs. You know how big the hype train was for that? It was incredible how big of a hype train it was!
How good was the game? Meh. It was okay.
There are many games journalists that say yeah that happens quite often.
Do you know a few games that should get recognized but don't?
Spec Ops: The Line.
Two Brothers,
The Last Dream,
And many others. These games had no hype behind them and were only spread by advertisement after the game was released offically and only from reviews of accredited people.
Currently the current advertising strategy falls short and is quite stupid.
We have people giving games that haven't even been released getting awards for best of show and most anticipated game. For one as a game designer. Ummm why? Who cares? Those games are now going to be extreme let downs now.
This goes double for a game I think a lot of people overrate and give way too much credit.
The Last Of Us.
Okay I got this game after all the hubbalo with this, Its the greatest game ever, and every reviewer basically calling it one of the best games ever. This game changed our generation of games forever. Not really. I felt like Spec Ops: The Line did a better post-apocalyptic story and delivery.
So here I was sitting infront of the game playing it on the computer. Waiting for the great moments of the game.... They never came. They never wowed me. I just sat there in confusion. Thinking to myself. I reflected on the game, thinking of any metaphors I could find, they were obviously not intended to be taken as one. I asked one of my friends what he felt like the metaphor for the game was. I got no answer. He stood there and said. "There was none."
It was okay, but not as good as everyone made it out to be. I thought the premise was quite well, Cliched for a zombie game, and underdeveloped. The world still felt like a game to me, I never felt immersed into it. The first 5 minutes of a game are extremely crucial if you do not drag me in the first 5 minutes, I am not interested. The game had good characters, but some parts just didn't feel right to me, they delivered on strong points and then forgot alot of others. I approached as a writer and designer, saw how they developed it and was kind of disappointed at the oh so great game of the year.
Overall I didn't enjoy the game at the slightest. Then I picked up a game you would call a point and click adventure game. Call the Walking Dead. Now. Here is the funny bit, I heard all the hype for this game. Guess what? I loved it. I thought it was more steady with its plot and design, it's ideas were solid and even better executed than it was in the Last of Us. I remember saying this in a game design class. And all the game designers basically disregarded my opinion because I was a freshman.
I played the last of us, and said it wasn't the best game of my gaming life, like so many people have said. I know only like two reviewers who said. "Yeah this is not all that its meant to be. And it tries to say something, but it says something completely different to me."
To me it panders to this who zombie phenomenon, it tries to tell a story and gets lost its delivery, a very big mistake on my opinion. Now many have argued that it was meant to be like. I don't think so. The game never gave me any clues as to how or why that would happen.
I still have to say that games like the Walking dead, Even though they are not triple A titles are probably some of the best games I've ever played. Because they remembered a lot of the qualities of being a good game. They delievered something the last of us forgot, and thats unity. We are built up that these two characters are family and all that they have left. Walking dead does something brave, the main characters are not white, infact its not even drawn to our attention that is a big deal. It uses all of the minorities without even batting an eye. And that is incredibly ballsy for a studio to do. (As sad as that is).
Anyway my rant is over. I think that gaming as a whole has a lot to improve on, journalism being the no.1 thing that needs work. (That and also story writing)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/27 15:08:43
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Spec Ops isn't exactly a good game either, infact now that people are pointing it out more people are actually tearing into the story, namely the fact that it cheapens itself by the major incident of the game being railroaded so hard that it starts trying to make you feel bad for something you were forced to do. Ironically as more people consider it and constantly hype it up through word of mouth, people think its rather just plain rather then real good after trying for themselves, which is somewhat ironic for the point you are making.
Do you mean Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons? While pretty, it was both a short and somewhat forgettable puzzle game, the characterizations were okay and it had a few good moments but I didn't personally like it myself.
Most of the games you listed had some sort of weak underlying game (Spec ops was just a weak shooter, you won't find much praise for it's gameplay) and two sons (It's puzzles were rather simplistic, another weak underlying game), with a bit of pretentious story telling for spec ops, and a 'tug at the heart strings' plot for two sons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:10:36
2014/08/27 15:20:56
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Spec Ops the line didn't get recognized? God, good to know that hours upon hours of people talking endlessly about how incredible the game is everywhere I turned were just in my imagination. BTW I also got the game after all the hype and all I saw was a trashy shooter whose only claim to fame was "omg you've killed civilians, LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE!" Been there, done that. Modern Warfare 2 was a better game <- and that's just damn sad.
You want to know why the game didn't get media coverage? The answer is 2k Games and Take 2 Interactive. The only game they've ever made that I saw any major media coverage for contain the names Sid Meir and Borderlands in the titles (and Bioshock I guess). These guys just don't advertise. Just because there's one conspiracy, doesn't mean everything is a conspiracy.
Do you know how much media coverage EA gave Dragon Age: Origins prior to it's release? None. They didn't even make a commercial add for it until the sales blew their minds away. The game had been out for weeks by the time the first commercial hit TV and the Net. Sometimes companies just don't advertise.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:27:31
Spec Ops isn't exactly a good game either, infact now that people are pointing it out more people are actually tearing into the story, namely the fact that it cheapens itself by the major incident of the game being railroaded so hard that it starts trying to make you feel bad for something you were forced to do. Ironically as more people consider it and constantly hype it up through word of mouth, people think its rather just plain rather then real good after trying for themselves, which is somewhat ironic for the point you are making.
Do you mean Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons? While pretty, it was both a short and somewhat forgettable puzzle game, the characterizations were okay and it had a few good moments but I didn't personally like it myself.
Most of the games you listed had some sort of weak underlying game (Spec ops was just a weak shooter, you won't find much praise for it's gameplay) and two sons (It's puzzles were rather simplistic, another weak underlying game), with a bit of pretentious story telling for spec ops, and a 'tug at the heart strings' plot for two sons.
Techincally the gameplay in spec ops the line is suppose to feel like that. As a designer I apperciate it quite a bit. As it doesn't just use the whole, you killed civilains stuff over and over again. It points at you and calls you the villain. It says this is your fault. All you had to do was stop. Call of duty does not do that. Call of duty uses it for shock value. Spec Ops is not in the least bit pretentious in story telling. It treats us as adults. It tells a story, it talks about how unrealistic video games are. You just don't play spec ops the line. You live the world it sets up for you. Stop thinking of all the aclaim for it. I do that for every game I play. I get rid of any prior knowledge and just play it and base it on its own merits.
I set up examples merely because it helps with understanding.
Spec Ops the line didn't get recognized? God, good to know that hours upon hours of people talking endlessly about how incredible the game is everywhere I turned were just in my imagination. BTW I also got the game after all the hype and all I saw was a trashy shooter whose only claim to fame was "omg you've killed civilians, LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE!" Been there, done that. Modern Warfare 2 was a better game <- and that's just damn sad.
You want to know why the game didn't get media coverage? The answer is 2k Games and Take 2 Interactive. The only game they've ever made that I saw any major media coverage for contain the names Sid Meir and Borderlands in the titles (and Bioshock I guess). These guys just don't advertise. Just because there's one conspiracy, doesn't mean everything is a conspiracy.
It was extremely underrated because of a lot of things. One thing the primary enemy in the game is Spec Ops the line. If you come to the game thinking this is going to be a call of duty rip off. You are going to see a call of duty rip off. The game feels generic. Just listen to the converstions between soldiers. There is a big difference between effectiveness
Modern Warfare 2 never, in its life showed us the consequences of your actions. For killing those people.
As slowly the men you grew to care about slowly widdled away to nothing.
Where men who had fought battles for their country were nothing but hardened husks.
If you can't take away any metaphorical value from that game, and not just stop and think. Then you played the game wrong. Its a game that asks you to think differently.
Think of portal. Try to approach like you would halo. It doesn't really work does it? Charging in head first won't work. It asks you one thing. Think with portals.
You can't play games and expect them to play like others. This game is quite special. Its not like the greatest game of all time, but it is apart of the gaming history now, and should placed as such. IT is a deep look at the connection between player and player character, the FPS genre, and how to use mechanics as metaphor.
IF you have played to the ending of the game you will see things that you have done. By that point you should have seen the things you have done. For me, I got a flash back of me shooting a woman in the head.
I know its just a game, but what if that really happened? Would I feel remorse? Would I feel anything?
I think you should stop treating it like a video game, and think of it as a visual art. It is trying to say something, but you won't let it speak it.
And don't you ever compared Call of Duty to Spec Ops: the line. They are two completely different franchises with different premises, and completely different points. Call Of Duty is not an intense look at the human condition its about how the Russians attack the united states and all of europe. (Wait what?)
Do you know how much media coverage EA gave Dragon Age: Origins prior to it's release? None. They didn't even make a commercial add for it until the sales blew their minds away. The game had been out for weeks by the time the first commercial hit TV and the Net. Sometimes companies just don't advertise.
I don't know there wasn't much coverage on Spec Ops: the Line. All we saw was three trailers and thats it. Dragon Age: origins was announced at big game conferences. Spec Ops: The Line wasn't. It was in development for five years. It got released and not many people heard about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:41:39
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/27 15:40:44
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Modern Warfare 2 never, in its life showed us the consequences of your actions. For killing those people.
Killing those people, started the entire storyline of the game which include essentially WWIII. Just because the consequence isn't thrown into your face by a voice screaming "you're bad and you should feel bad" doesn't mean we didn't see the consequence. We spent the rest of the game dealing with the consequence.
Modern Warfare 2 never, in its life showed us the consequences of your actions. For killing those people.
Killing those people, started the entire storyline of the game which include essentially WWIII. Just because the consequence isn't thrown into your face by a voice screaming "you're bad and you should feel bad" doesn't mean we didn't see the consequence. We spent the rest of the game dealing with the consequence.
Yeah but the character doesn't. WE don't see the character.
I could never relate to the characters.
There was no character development.
The characters started out as badasses and stayed as badasses.
Spec Ops: The Line had the character go from a badass, to a husk.
Call Of duty on the other hand did not.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/27 15:45:16
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Isn't the character murdered/executed shortly after participating in the events that are the impetus for the storyline? It seems like it would be hard to see the consequences when you are dead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:45:28
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/08/27 15:45:29
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Do you know how much media coverage EA gave Dragon Age: Origins prior to it's release? None. They didn't even make a commercial add for it until the sales blew their minds away.
Well, aside from Sacred Ashes.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/08/27 15:46:11
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Isn't the character murdered/executed shortly after participating in the events that are the impetus for the storyline? It seems like it would be hard to see the consequences when you are dead.
Hey man, he's watching in heaven (he says "my bad guys" btw).
Do you know how much media coverage EA gave Dragon Age: Origins prior to it's release? None. They didn't even make a commercial add for it until the sales blew their minds away.
Well, aside from Sacred Ashes.
Sacred Ashes didn't appear until October (a month before release) and only appeared on EA's site and Youtube. Most games have a trailer available months out. EA basically announced the game in 2008. Forgot about it. Mentioned it again during E3 2009. Forgot about it again. Had a trailer made and released it in October. The Sacred Ashes trailer didn't start hitting ad venues (as in banner ads, tv, etc) until after the game released.
Isn't the character murdered/executed shortly after participating in the events that are the impetus for the storyline? It seems like it would be hard to see the consequences when you are dead.
Yeah but that is a gimmick in all Call of Duty games,
It is the same cliche they use over and over again.
Its brillaint the first time its executed, but if you use the same card over and over again. It sort of loses its shock value.
The First oh crap moment was in Call of duty 4 with nuke. modernwarfare 2 with the airport scene Modernwarfare 3 with the child scene (Oh wow, I was actually expecting an emotional reaction)
So your telling me this....
Is less emotional... Than this?
Which do you think is more realistic and more grim? The first or the second.
I would go with the first one. Because of one thing. Watch the soldiers. They are still alive, and groveling in the dirt. They are screaming HELP ME, HELP ME GOD. PLEASE HELP ME.
They are both terrible scenes. One just executes it far better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:54:41
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/27 15:51:31
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Well lets be fare. Call of Duty and Infinity War/Treyarch rips all their missions and story lines from movies too
I had to giggle when playing Black Ops and realized they'd ripped entire scenes from The Last Castle. They were really scrapping the bottom of the barrel there.
The First oh crap moment was in Call of duty 4 with nuke.
modernwarfare 2 with the airport scene
Modernwarfare 3 with the child scene (Oh wow, I was actually expecting an emotional reaction)
Incorrect. The first oh crap moment was in Call of Duty:United Offensive, when Captain Price died to blow up the Tirpitz *salutes*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 15:53:32
LordofHats wrote: Well lets be fare. Call of Duty and Infinity War/Treyarch rips all their missions and story lines from movies too
I had to giggle when playing Black Ops and realized they'd ripped entire scenes from The Last Castle. They were really scrapping the bottom of the barrel there.
The First oh crap moment was in Call of duty 4 with nuke.
modernwarfare 2 with the airport scene
Modernwarfare 3 with the child scene (Oh wow, I was actually expecting an emotional reaction)
Incorrect. The first oh crap moment was in Call of Duty:United Offensive, when Captain Price died to blow up the Tirpitz *salutes*
I really don't include those ones as I haven't played those ones. The old COD games were great till they became formulaic.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/08/27 16:00:47
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Also, let's keep in mind that her video series are just her opinions. She is not an academic, she does not carry out academic peer reviewed research. Her videos are just Anita pontificating on thing that p*** her off..
To be fair...isn't this exactly what gaming journalism stands for nowadays?
So here's a win, a small win, but a win regardless, Kotaku is telling all of its writers to immediately cease any donations to developers (Zoe Quinn is freaking out because she just lost her $2000 a month for Rebel Game Jam that she hasn't updated in months) and Polygon is telling its employees to be straight up with their connections to the stories they write.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2014/08/28 00:13:34
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Oh, censorship like adding more female character that are not just Miss Male Character or Booby McBoob, that is censorship. Because we all know adding new, better stuff is all that censorship is about .
I mean more like taking out story stuff just because it offends her, like if something messed up happens and there happens to be a woman involved, she'll go off the deep end connecting it things that aren't apparent to anyone but her.
The poisonous part is the SJW insanity, especially the sex negative stuff, and the mass stupidity when you question the reasoning and logic behind their statements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenous D wrote: So here's a win, a small win, but a win regardless, Kotaku is telling all of its writers to immediately cease any donations to developers (Zoe Quinn is freaking out because she just lost her $2000 a month for Rebel Game Jam that she hasn't updated in months) and Polygon is telling its employees to be straight up with their connections to the stories they write.
Zoe Quinn loses funding
Kotaku admits fault
Polygon will show transparency
I'd say Nathan Grayson and Patricia Hernandez should have had some sort of recourse but they are basically black balled to the nerd community and wont live it down for a long while, so half win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 00:17:45
Mechanical Crow wrote: I mean more like taking out story stuff just because it offends her, like if something messed up happens and there happens to be a woman involved, she'll go off the deep end connecting it things that aren't apparent to anyone but her.
Uh, okay?
Mechanical Crow wrote: The poisonous part is the SJW insanity, especially the sex negative stuff, and the mass stupidity when you question the reasoning and logic behind their statements.
So, by “sex negative”, you mean that we will see less male character in heavily sexualized outfits and poses? Oh, too bad, there are so many currently that it will make a huge difference[/sarcasm]
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/08/28 02:33:45
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
.
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