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I am not sure on the not wanting to fail part, you are really against them for so long time, iirc it started because you did not like how the rules (d)evolved and snowballed ever since.

To be entirely honest I am hard to think you been positive about them or not encouraging someone to drop their pledge.

You may be right, that will not change the fact you seem to be really pushing on them to fail.

I have been unhappy with SPM's direction for a very long time, particularly how they've *completely* changed the rules, but that is very different from wanting them to fail.

Once it became clear that SDE's "Classic" rules were becoming something I didn't want to play (because they are objectively badly designed: slow, tedious and badly balanced), I walked way from those rules. But that wasn't a big deal, because I'd been working on alternate rules following the Forgotten King's rules debacle. I spent a *lot* of time developing multiple rulesets (Shadow Delve, Adorable Mayhem!, Attack of the Dire) specifically to continue using their existing SDE product, with the notion of adding more SDE product to the pile.

The problem for me is that there is nothing positive to say about them. For the past several months, SPM/ND has not actually done anything positive with respect to SDE. It's been all lies and smoke. Not a single bit of transparency or honesty from them. They're basically acting like Palladium for Robotech or any of the other scumbag scammers. I pointedly, and repeatedly asked SPM them for evidence that one could believe in them as a company, that they were actually doing the things they said they would, so that they could be held accountable to the backers. SPM/ND consistently failed to do so. They would say they would do something, and then completely fail to follow through. And then, they would ignore any related request, as if it would go away. Their behavior has been fundamentally dishonest for months.

So yes, for several months, I've been pointing out that they're a bad company. But wishing they would fail? Not really. Simply reporting the facts that they are failing.

If they actually had any good news to report about the SDE KS I had backed, I would have fairly credited them for that. For example, when they actually processed my refund in a timely fashion (because I'm a very squeaky wheel), I credited them for doing so. OTOH, when they held up others for over a month (because they were ignorable), I called them out for that, too.

Or, let me spin this a little differently: Why aren't YOU personally praising President Donald Trump for all the good things he's done? That's the exact analogy. There's basically nothing to say.

Em because I am not a US citizen? and while USA does affect many minor countries globally, it is has nothing to do with us? Besides why praise him or not praise him on a forum about wargames and boardgames?

On the actual conversation I think your "campaign" may have caused more damage and delays from people you persuade them to flee than SPM incompetence, you are after all as you admitted quite influential.

I don't know if their project is deliverable, I see they do sell other products and seem to go otherwise well, but their KS projects are quite the train-wreak.

J.H.D.D. is referred to as 'quite influential'?

Citation needed!

To be fair, Soda Pop seem to be spinning their wheels. SDE has missed all dates supplied so far, typically with nothing to show for it.

Kickstarter is, effectively, a venture capitalist site for the masses. The problem is that there is little recourse when folks don't live up to their deliverables and then obfuscate about them.

To make matters worse, they started loosing credibility when they began to run multiple new campaigns with nothing to show for the first. I'm glad RRI finally got sent, but SDE, and Relic Knights are in trouble, then they've got other projects that are in the works and all went late.

It is not unreasonable for people who put up money to be grumpy that there is no delivery and no end in sight. Essentially the lesson should be, buy and support nothing from them until it releases. They cannot be trusted to hit their dates (I gave them the benefit of the doubt after how long NAS was to ship, but am glad my co-backer was also having doubts over SDE, as it got ridiculous).

 Alpharius wrote:
J.H.D.D. is referred to as 'quite influential'?

Citation needed!

Indeed. It's not like my ego isn't inflated enough already!

Although SPM did censor me for asking the questions they didn't want to answer, so there might actually be something to the claim...

I'm going to chalk it up to flattery and leave it at that.

...and then there was Relic Knights, who seems to be following the tradition set forth by its forefathers of taking forever and a day with no end in sight.

Are Soda Pop and Prodos still working together?

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Are Soda Pop and Prodos still working together?

I believe they're using (Prodos') Unicast for Starfinder, but I don't believe they've admitted it's Prodos.

At least this far, they seem to be doing OK on the Starfinder line.

Perhaps Paizo is supervising them closely and/or has a contract with penalty clauses.

Is Starfinder in production / delivery?

It's easy to be "OK" before you have to spend *real* money.

I admit I stopped following the updates and comments from Legends since a long time, especially when they became too focused on rule previews and complains. How the game is balanced isn't really what I'm after - it's really the art design and the miniatures. I know I will barely play the game at all.

Kickstarters projects tend to have more and more delays and are less interesting these times in comparison to before, IMHO. So I think Legends will be the last one I will support.

Censorship isn't a good thing, to me. Sure, it's not enjoyable to see constant negativity in the comments, but there is always a reason behind. Just shutting people up isn't the answer, from my point of view.

I still want the miniatures...and I think if I'm pulling the plug out now, there is a certainty I won't get them. Yes, I know, I must be stupid for still clinging to that hope, but hey...I waited that long and I already gave that money two years ago. Getting it back now would certainly be good, but it's not like I made my current budget hoping to have it right now...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is Starfinder in production / delivery?

Yes, but only partially so. The basic sculpts are out, but the Starfinder Masterclass minis have yet to emerge.

 schoon wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Is Starfinder in production / delivery?

Yes, but only partially so. The basic sculpts are out, but the Starfinder Masterclass minis have yet to emerge.

"Production" means that they are making the actual product (minis, in this case) that will go to the backer / consumer. This would be piles of miniatures in trays, along with stacks of boxes and so forth.

Right now, ND is only showing digital renders of proposed product from their design team. That is all very inexpensive (relatively speaking) stuff that counts as days of designer labor. Some would say that ALL of the concept and design work should have been completed prior to KS launch, but maybe SPM needed KS money to pay the designer.

SPM/ND haven't even done any of the pre-production work like 3-D printed masters, much less hard tooling and verification, before "pressing the button" to make 1,000s of each item, and packaging them for shipment, prior to delivery of getting final product into backer hands. That's the stuff that starts to cost real money, and SPM isn't anywhere near there at this point.

Right now, Starfinder is where Legends was 18-20 months ago: Pledge Manager open, and asking for more money.

Given that:
1. SPM is now running 60+ days late at processing KS SDE:Legends refunds;
2. SPM got "fired" by SSE/S7
https://www.shinobi7.com/diamond-alliance-and-new-ownership.html

At this point, it looks like SPM is out of cash, with bankruptcy looming. I would be shocked if SPM survives the year.

I would strongly advise people to wait for SPM/ND product to hit the shelf (immediately followed by MM clearance) before spending any money on their product.

Were Ninja Division distributing that stuff prior?

Seems like going with Diamond/ Alliance is almost a no- brainer for an up and coming hobby company though.

Better question would be are Ninja Division's products getting sold through Alliance?

I'm starting to worry my relic knights won't be getting made after all.

Alliance seem to be trying to move to an exclusive distribution model (they've now got one with Asmodee which is pretty huge in terms of their market share)

so it's not impossible that staying with Soda Pop (who don't want to play that game.... or havn't been invited to?) would have been a foolish move for SSE

or JohnHwangDD might be right

but

Way of the Figher is real and they will have stock as that's why the Rail Raiders stuff was delayed for us in Europe so WoTF could ship in the same containers, (although the WoTF has yet to ship in Europe it is here and just waiting for a list of addresses from Soda Pop

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Were Ninja Division distributing that stuff prior?

Seems like going with Diamond/ Alliance is almost a no- brainer for an up and coming hobby company though.

Better question would be are Ninja Division's products getting sold through Alliance?

I'm starting to worry my relic knights won't be getting made after all.

Previously, SSE was a joint venture with ND, presumably using ND for production aspects, as ND had successfully produced and delivered Forgotten King.

Diamond/Alliance is indeed a much better choice. Tho I'm not sure whether Diamond/Alliance handles their stuff. I suppose they could.

That's a very legitimate concern, given that absolutely nothing is happening on for Legends production.

I'd warn against making predictions that Relic Knights 2 won't be delivered, that Ninja Division will go under (declare bankruptcy), etc.

I've been fairly critical of ND in the past (some of their recent decisions have frustrated me to no end). But KS delays are commonplace these days, and ND had run into the normal challenges faced by small companies (key personnel with sickness, etc.).

Curious to see how things turn out, but best not to speculate, reason being it can create worry and make more people request refunds - a spiral which then ends in self-fulfilling prophesy...

...and I really want more Relic Knight models....

Mez

And why shouldn't anyone predict the looming failure of SPM/ND?

There is a very big difference between a "commonplace" delay, and the outright shenanigans that SPM/ND are pulling and the bald-faced lies that go with them. SPM/ND are lying with respect to goods to be delivered and financial obligations, so that makes them cheats and fraudsters to boot. This is ALL based on by SPM's actual words and actions, and would be defensible in a court of law, along with California's anti-SLAPP law).

Commonplace delay is simply that, a delay. But the actual business of delivering the Kickstarter continues. The business continues to deliver on its obligations and fulfills its financial obilgations in a timely fashion. Tangible progress continues to be demonstrable, and the only visible change is that the timeline is extended from the previous estimate.

In the case of SDE:Legends, SPM/ND has made absolutely no effort to deliver the KS to backers. They have made repeated claims about being ready to enter production, but and those deadlines have been glaringly missed without any update or comment. When pressed for evidence of progress, or even some sort of plan, SPM is completely silent - because they have no progress to show, and no plan to ever deliver. The only "production" that SPM has shown are pre-production masters and white packaging. Not the piles of miniatures and stacks of print that people had expected.

Lately, the only time they bothered to communicate is when they came hat-in-hand for more money (i.e. Starfinder), and even then, they rebranded as "Ninja Division" (the 2nd) because the SPM brand was overly tainted by both the SDE and RRI KS debacles. During this time, SPM/ND stated refunds were available, and said they would be processed within a certain timeframe, first several days, then a week or two, then the claimed a month backlog. At this point, multiple backers are stating that SPM has delayed refunds for months, multiple months, and that SPM is now refusing to acknowledge demands for payment owed as agreed.

As for my speculation, well, the latest run on refunds in the SDE:L KS isn't my doing. SPM force refunded me a while ago, specifically to prevent me from commenting in the KS. At this point, it's the KS backers themselves finally figuring out that SPM has been lying to them for months, and that there is absolutely no way for SPM to deliver as most recently promised. There simply isn't enough time in the year Previously, this was a reprisal that SPM applied to Insider714, who had openly questioned SPM's financial health, along with RRI backers who had tried to warn Starfinder backers about SPM's shenanigains.

And looking at RRI, SPM surprised backers by cutting corners on packaging (which allowed them to save on shipping). They also unilaterally held up shipment in to further save on shipping. Then they unilaterally replaced several larger pledged items with a handful of (much smaller & cheaper to produce and mail) playing cards. Then, they tried to cheap out on SDE packaging, and only relented when backers referred back to the Campaign page of what SPM was offering.

It all adds up to an excessive amount of penny pinching and cash holding that is indicative of a company that is broke, if not actually bankrupt. At this point, the only way I'd believe SPM not to be bankrupt is for them to release their Big 4 audited tax returns for review.

Mark my words, these are the last gasps of a company that is about to go under. Not a company that is merely delaying delivery.

And the (real solid) evidence for it are?

Look, you may be right, you may be completely wrong, but what you say is just a speculation on your part without any real evidence, on top of the fact you were negative about them even when they were delivering, it is not a really neutral opinion you have, hence why I said earlier you simply what them to fail.

Why should they give you (or anybody else) their financial records? aren't those secret? the industry behaves with them as if they are a fully functioning company is that an indication they are doing ok?

Way of the Fighter looks a little bit like an Aristeia! knock off...

And while nothing prevents speculation about a company's finances, there's really no way to tell for sure for private organizations.

There are plenty of companies with crummy business practices that have done fine, good ones that have failed, and everything in between.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And the (real solid) evidence for it are?

Look, you may be right, you may be completely wrong, but what you say is just a speculation on your part without any real evidence, on top of the fact you were negative about them even when they were delivering, it is not a really neutral opinion you have, hence why I said earlier you simply what them to fail.

Why should they give you (or anybody else) their financial records? aren't those secret? the industry behaves with them as if they are a fully functioning company is that an indication they are doing ok?

The evidence is how SPM is not spending money:
* RRI stretch goal non-delivery
* RRI non-retail packaging
* RRI substitution of SGs
* RRI non-US fulfillment delay
* SDEL split into Wave 1 & 2
* SDEL Wave 1 production not started
* SDEL non-retail packaging
* SDEL refunds delayed for months
* SDEL Updates suspended indefinitely
* Justin out
ALL of those are where SPM is cutting corners and not delivering against their promises, and the common thread is that they ALL cost money. One or two of them in isolation aren't an issue, but combined, they form a pattern that provides clear proof that the company is lacks the cash to provide refunds or deliver product. The fact that they no longer communicate except to ask for money only adds to it.

Again, it's not me wanting them to fail; rather, it's me seeing that they are a failed concern, that they are no longer a viable company, and are no longer capable of delivering Legends. If they were viable, then those would have been minor setbacks, and they would have started actual production by now. And they would have communicated that to the backers, and processed the refunds that they promised to people. Instead, they've gone from testable lies to silence.

Also WRT financials, please read more carefully. I believe that SPM is bankrupt, that their liabilities exceed cash on hand. I can be persuaded otherwise, by verifiable proof, which would be their audited financials. They are not a secret, as evidenced by their publication by all public companies, although I can understand why SPM would want to keep them a secret.

As evidenced by SSE/S7 terminating their business partnership with ND, the industry clearly does not act as if they are a fully functioning company. SSE/S7 voted with their feet, giving a very loud and clear "No Confidence" in ND going forward.

Finally, you need to distinguish between "being negative" and "assessing the facts". There are NO positive facts related to SPM/ND, and haven't been for a very long time, well, aside from them managing to raise some money on Paizo's Starfinder property. But that positive is heavily colored by SPM/ND having to rebrand themselves to do so, trying to get around the fact that SDEL and RRI were both hugely overdue and failing KS... But you tell me this: If SPM/ND is actually a healthy company, by what basis would you say so? What are they doing that makes you think so? Do you have any evidence that they are fulfilling any of their business obligations, as opposed to the growing litany of voices to the contrary? Go on, I'm a patient man.

What's going on w RRI stretch goals/non-delivery? I have it coming, but kind of zoned out on that one.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:
What's going on w RRI stretch goals/non-delivery? I have it coming, but kind of zoned out on that one.

I was hoping you could tell us, as you've a backer and hopefully they're keeping you up to date in the...updates!

I'm not a RRI backer (dodged that bullet!), but I have been following the RRI comments from time to time, as RRI backers had been alluding to SPM's bad behavior on that KS, and were concerned it would carry over to SDEL. As I understand it:

SPM has been basically ignoring RRI and not giving them the Updates that they had originally promised, then promised to restore (at the time of the Starfinder campaign, after several disgruntled RRI backers started bombing the "ND" Starfinder campaign).

In short, during the KS campaign, SPM showed RRI retail packaging for the base game, and unlocked SGs for additional blinds and stuff. When KS backers received their stuff, everything was packed into the KS-exclusive "bonus" box, replacing the retail game packaging; however, SPM was delivering retail product in the retail boxes. SPM simply up and decided not to include the retail box that was shown in the campaign.

Then, as backers unpacked their stuff, they were consistently short-packed, missing all but one the SG-unlocked blinds.

Then, non-US backers found out that they weren't getting shipment until it could be combined with another SPM delivery, so they were iced for months, without any way to get refunds.

Ultimately, instead of providing the blinds, etc. that were promised during the KS, as backers had expected, SPM announced that everybody would get a few cheap cards instead of the slightly more expensive items that they were supposed to deliver.

From a contracts POV, SPM unilaterally breached the contract and pushed an inadequate cure without informing the backers. SPM refused to acknowledge refund non-US requests due because they had claimed the 8-week window had passed, even tough the non-US backers were heavily delayed.

It's a complete failure of business ethics.

And all this time, SPM has basically refused to communicate with the RRI backers who have been demanding answers to their legitimate grievances.

I fully expect ex-RRI backers to show up in force to burn down any other SPM/ND project going forward.

I backed and the only thing I remember is

1. the stretch goal for a fancy KS box meant the retail box got removed (although the actual KS info suggested we'd get both)

2. There was a stretch goal for card sleaves (but never enough to cover all the cards so it was always going to be pointless unless you bought extras) which it turned out they couldn't get done for some reason (too expensive?, manufacturers wouldn't take such a small order? too long a waiting time? who knows, I've certainly has crazy long waits for sleave restocks from Swan and FFG so that might be true)

so we got given a few extra loot cards which for actually playing the game is better (although not what we backed for)

"too expensive" was definitely the reason!

I never got my RR kickstarter, got my way of the fighter one minus miniatures, which is most of what I wanted. Oh well Rising Sun and Smog should be delivered soon. SDE is never coming out as far as I can tell

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

It's a complete failure of business ethics.

Hmmm...they certainly sent updates a less lot frequently than in the first months, but from my point of view as a RRI and SDEL backer (and everything SDE before, to be honest), it's not as bad as you are saying here.

They kept doing updates, even if they didn't have much to say and they were more spaced in time. While I think they indeed seem to have taken a bit too many projects at the same time (and wasn't really sure of their strategy of redoing the whole game system after the kickstarter was funded), to say it's a complete failure of business ethics feel a bit too much to me.

After all, RRI pledges are being delivered. Sure, SDEL seems to have some way before that step.

Not saying it's going smoothly, far from it, but I have seen much much worse as a Kickstarter.dealing company.

I fully expect ex-RRI backers to show up in force to burn down any other SPM/ND project going forward.

I dunno... I got my RRI pledge and everything is fine inside. I think it's more general for Kickstarters, though. I feel like they are less interesting than in the past, with delays becoming more common. It really feels more like pre-orders with a much higher waiting time. So yeah, I think I'll be good waiting for the product to be in stores. Who knows what I will be playing in one or two years later, after all.