Soda Pop Miniatures / Ninja Division, (Web store back up, Masterclass resins available again)

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**PsychoticStorm**

"IF"

They may fail, they may pull themselves together and deliver, but all your scenarios are based on your desire for them to fail.

**highlord tamburlaine**

I think doing resin releases like this is a step in the right direction.

It's what kept Kingdom Death afloat after all. Adam's said as much.

Reasonably priced limited release window models aren't going to break the bank, take forever to cast, or require exorbitant up front costs.

If this helps guarantee future products getting in our hands, then I'm all for it!

**JohnHwangDD**

PsychoticStorm wrote:
"IF"

They may fail, they may pull themselves together and deliver, but all your scenarios are based on your desire for them to fail.

No wishing, and no "scenarios".

Merely stating the obvious.

**Vertrucio**

It's only obvious that they're in trouble, but that in and of itself is so obvious that it's not really some special idea that needs to be iterated multiple times per page.

What's not obvious is whether they'll get it together. So, stating the obvious isn't really news, especially when already said so many times.

To get back on topic. SPM has its own niche market. As crappy as it is to put out tiny morsels for sale when so much has yet to be delivered, it generates cash flow into the company from their established niche. It's as good a strategy as any for keeping the cash flowing, which over time can enable a company to get out of trouble.

I do think they needed to diversity their market for a long time now. But they need their own original IP instead of buying licenses that are questionable in their selling strength. This then wastes production capacity.

**JohnHwangDD**

If SPM had just focused on making SDE the best chibi dungeon game ever, everybody would be happy.

**JohnHwangDD**

SPM "Update" today!

Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:Production

First and foremost, as most of you have surmised, wave one will not be arriving in April as we had previously estimated. As we have shown in multiple updates, development and layout for most rewards is complete. (Development will be covered in more detail below.)

Production has obviously faced some major hurdles and delays. To overcome them, we have had to move the production of the Super Dungeon: Explore core game to a new manufacturer. We are beginning this shift with just Explore in order to iron out the process. We will then work with both of our manufacturing partners towards the creation of all of the additional rewards.

We have done (and will continue) all due diligence to ensure that all Super Dungeon product remains consistent and of the high quality you expect across all products. It is every bit as import to us, as it is to you, that the final Super Dungeon product is an exceptional experience.

This shift naturally leads to the question of timelines. While we have done our best to provide you with accurate estimates of timelines, we have obviously not been successful in our estimates. We apologize for this. It has not been our intention in any way to mislead you. Estimates were made based upon the best information we had available at the time. Going forward, we will no longer be providing time estimates. We will only be providing concrete milestones once they have been achieved. While this does not provide the false “comfort” of a delivery estimate, it will make it so that when we update you with a production milestone it will have the weight of having been hit.

Refund Policy Update

At this late stage in the Kickstarter we are officially ending the open refund period, effective immediately. While we understand the delay in fulfilment is frustrating, because we are in the production process we must be able to have firm numbers in order to plan logistics and production.

If you have previously requested a refund during the open refund period, it will remain in our queue and you will receive your refund. We apologize for any delay you may have encountered in receiving your refund. They are not forgotten, and will be processed as they move through our queue

Future Updates and Community

Updates will continue every other week on Wednesdays. The only reason this update fell differently was due to our GAMA attendance. Our next update will be April 4th.

This Kickstarter is delayed, and as a backer you have every right to be frustrated with us. This was not a preorder, it was a product in development.

Obviously, they're not delivering Wave 1 to people's door by mid-April. We all knew that back in February, but it took SPM a long time to acknowledge reality. Their failure to provide notice of refund closure is poor form, and a likely a "Bad Faith' breach of contract. Particularly as they're not planning to start shipping within the next 8 weeks.

It would be nice if SPM were to re-read the Campaign Page and other Updates that they posted prior to the KS Campaign Close, as they form the actual contract between SPM and Backer. As of this latest Update, SPM intends to unilaterally and willingly breach that contract. Specifically the refund clause which says that they would accept refunds up to 8 weeks prior to shipping. If I still wanted a Refund, I would demand it to be paid within 8 weeks, or else to accrue penalty interest as of the 8th week. I'd charge whatever the going rate is at a Paycheck Loan company.

**caylentor**

This update annoyed me so much. No more milestones until they hit them? That's a terrible way to run a project, especially with investors/stakeholders. To compound it, no more refunds so if you're unhappy with this situation you can get stuffed. What an awful company.

I'm still in because I wrote off the invested money ages ago and on the off chance something gets delivered I do want the minis, but this is essentially confirmation that the company is on the way out. I've put in a refund request anyway and will just unsubscribe from the Kickstarter updates so I never have to deal with them again.

**Kurgash**

I kept giving SPM the benefit of the doubt but this is getting to be a bit much now with the sudden 'ok no refunds now' out of nowhere. We're at...2 years post end date for SDE and nothing? Ok Relic Knights will be my last KS with them until they get their act together.

**Sarouan**

What made me raise a brow in their update is the part talking about them changing manufacturers because of whatever causes the delays/hurdles. And they're saying they will start with Explore, meaning the other rewards aren't included. I feel that won't be done in a few months, to me.

Yeah, plenty of reasons to be upset. And since they won't accept "free" refunds from now...that means it will be harder to get your money back if you're really not happy about waiting more.

The explanation about why they release resin SDE new miniatures is fair, to me. I'm not really okay with the price going up, but well...seems like it's becoming more common with chibi miniatures on the market, these days.

**Azazelx**

They've permanently burned their bridges with me. I won't ever buy anything from them again.

Not that I think it will matter. I expect them to go under before delivering at this point. If we're super lucky they'll deliver a Wave 1 of a core box to retail (and then to backers) before taking another two years to finally fold.

From what I can gather in the comments, they haven't actually been honouring refund requests for some time anyway....

**caylentor**

No, they haven't, which is one reason I didn't bother asking.

I'm done with them too. I'd be surprised if they deliver anything other than a token release before either abandoning the project or folding completely.

The scale of mismanagement is staggering.

**highlord tamburlaine**

No mention of the phone shot of the Relic Knight "production proof?"

You'd think SDE would be a priority. But we get RK shots instead.

How much would people flip out if we actually saw Relic Knights 2.0 ship before any SDE stuff ever released?

**warboss**

With his latest delay in the Nov 2015 SDE Legends kickstarter, has anything been produced yet? Did they split it into waves of have they produced nothing?

**JohnHwangDD**

SPM hasn't done anything except talk, and get samples.

SPM changing factory means they can't afford production that they had originally planned, same with reducing from Wave 1 to Explore (cut-down SDE 2.0 without Arcade rules) only. SPM simply cannot afford to tool and produce the full Wave 1, much less the original KS. They are functionally out of money, which is why they stopped providing refunds, and unilaterally stopped accepting refunds (despite being more than 8 weeks from shipping).

**warboss**

Thanks, I'll pass this on to Starfinder backers.

**Sining**

I got my refund for SDE last year already so I'm good. Still in for RK 2.0 since that actually looks to be delivering. I wonder if they've run into issues with their china manufacturing for SDE since I know a lot of factories got hit by the new strict environmental regulations that came into effect last year and basically had to close down for auditing until they passed or went bust.

**nkelsch**

The thing is, we are told they are using a new factory, but not told why. A legitimate WHY would go a long way. If they had one, I suspect they would be "blazing it from the mountains" to quote SPM's owner.

The only options are:
*The factory went out of business: Which would be a slam dunk disclosure and place the blame.
*The Factory produced poor quality work: Again, valid explanation.
*Factory prices went way up: Not great, but a valid explanation.

Now if they had an explanation, they would have given it. But they didn't. So all we can assume is:
*The factory is 'too busy': Which means SPM poor planning missed their window.
*The factory Dumped them as a client: Which means SPM is a bad customer.
*They couldn't afford the factory: Which means they looking for cheaper options.

We are looking at 8-12 months for now *JUST* SDE:Explore core. Which we will see Core at retail months before anything is delivered to backers as SPM won't eat 3 waves of shipping.

So they will make SDE: explore, release it to retail, and backers won't see anything until they get everything else through the snake, which means 18-24 months for backers to see even a single piece of this product in their hands.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Not if they hope to use the factory or those affiliated with the owners again (and they might as they did good work depending on why they couldn't use them this time)

especially since they hope to become a big time publisher

game companies are never going to be big enough to make turning down their business something an offended owner can't afford to do

(not that I necessarily think you're wrong in your analysis, just there are other options)

**JohnHwangDD**

It's pretty obvious that SPM has burned too much of the SPM money on other things that didn't pan out.

Prior to the SDE:L KS launch, SPM had a quote to produce all of the KS in one go, but rules issues held things up (because SPM didn't actually work on the rules like they were supposed to), so that quote expired out.

As a result, SPM ended up breaking the product into Waves, with a greatly reduced "Wave 1" (2.0 cut down to Explore, just the Warbands). This would have been late 2017 (actual) production with delivery starting mid-Q1 2018 consistent the "April 2018" claim. SPM obviously weren't able to do that, either, and the quote expired at the end of 2017. During 2017, it comes to light that SPM is no longer able to afford PVC tooling for retail distribution, and has to switch to Prodos' resin.

Now, we're in 2018, and SPM can only produce Explore, without the Warbands. This is the minimum viable production run that makes something that could be sold at retail. And they need to look at getting yet another quote together, with a new manufacturing window, etc. But this is a problem, because SPM can no longer afford to produce things at the scale (and quality) originally spec'd. They need to find a manufacturer who will allow them to name their price. Lowest cost manufacturer who will squeeze them in, when they can. Zero priority.

Meanwhile, they have to preorder their special items, because they can't afford to produce additional stock that doesn't get sold immediately.

And now, SPM can't afford to process refunds at all.

Functionally, SPM is out of cash. They don't even have the $100-200 that it would take to refund backers. This is all due to SPM's inability to manage themselves.

**Vertrucio**

That's literally the same thing you've been saying for the past 10 pages. Got anything actually news worthy?

**JohnHwangDD**

Only spotlighting that SPM now can't even afford to produce "Wave 1" or provide refunds.

**Vertrucio**

Again. Not new and not news. And stating a lot of conjecture as fact is also neither, especially the same stuff multiple times per page.

The fact that SPM is in big trouble is something that everyone else realized already.

The spotlight is already on them. Now it's like a kid has grabbed the spotlight controls and is waving it around the forum so he feels special for putting the spotlight on things that it was already pointing at.

**caylentor**

SPM have done everything in their power to avoid admitting the trouble they're in (they still haven't been clear on the extent and cause) so this latest update actually confirming problems is valid news.

Without clear communication from SPM then conjecture is all we have and given the completely farcical way they've handled the project then all we can assume is that there are deep structural problems and backers will be phenomenally lucky if they see delivery of any physical products.

If you have information to the contrary please share it, otherwise this thread serves as a way to vent for those of us who are likely to lose money on this venture and a warning to other potential backers or consumers not to get involved.

**nkelsch**

Agree... The only relevant communication from SPM since December 2017 is news... and the messed up thing is they still didn't really tell us much of anything. And since they have a history of bold-face lying to us, all we can do is look to past performance for an indicator of future performance.

The big 'change' right now is a factory change. Also the apparent 'killing off' of all games/product which are plastic driven as they seem like they will have no way to reprint anything until after this KS. NAS is dead and gone from the ND store. RRI will probably run until it sells out its stock and be gone. WotF has no Plastic minis. SDE inventory will reach rock bottom and not be reprinted. So that is a sign that future KS, won't maintain retail support, which makes it hard to buy-in to a game system to the tune of 300$+ if it is dead and unsupported 6 months later.

It is also clear they are in a rush to get SDE core to retail for retail purchase to save the franchise and infuse cash. There is no sign that KS backers will get that first shipment of SDE: explore core box.

The reneging on the refund policy is also news as it shows that John at SPM will breach a business agreement whenever it feels it suits him and they are not just bad at business but unethical as well. People explicitly backed the KS because they had the option to bail out with a full refund if it went pear shaped. SPM added that bit to explicitly draw in backers who might not have backed regardless of 'KS is not a pre-order'. Also, they allowed explicit PRE-ORDERS via their web store which has nothing to do with KS. So those people now being unable to get a refund is against consumer law. This is news as it lets people know what they should expect in future campaigns. It is easy to be ethical and responsible when everything is going well.

So those developments are news.

**JohnHwangDD**

Edited by Manchu

**warboss**

Is it true that they've contracted with Prodos to make the resin minis for their lines? If so, can someone post a link to the admission/press release? If that is the case then likely all the Starfinder miniatures will probably be coming from them as well as they're "masterpiece" resin.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Originally they were working with Prodos, but now, I don't know. I thought there was a falling out or something.

**nkelsch**

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/40006/ninja-division-pulling-back-kickstarter

NINJA DIVISION PULLING BACK FROM KICKSTARTER
'It's Not Responsible for Me To Expose My Brands to That.'
Posted by Milton Griepp on March 27, 2018 @ 3:51 am CT

Game publisher Ninja Divison has had considerable success funding projects on Kickstarter, but will no longer be funding large projects on the platform, Ninja Division Co-Owner and Creative Director John Cadice told ICv2 at GAMA Trade Show.

"It's important as publishers, and as studios and developers, as we start to get our feet under us to take a real hard look as how it is and why it is we use Kickstarter as a business," he said. "We have a great community we've been able to build up over time, but we've come to recognize that in our time working and developing in Kickstarter that you run the risk, as a business, of your eyes getting too big for the plate. You build big projects. You want to be ambitious. You want to go after all of this opportunity to give your customers all the things they want. We have gone through and redesigned whole products from scratch based on the feedback we get. We've added time to our time frames, everybody thinking that it's OK."

"But the added toxicity, …the way that it's swung online has made us shy away from wanting to even be a part of it. I don't think that it's responsible for any of our external business partners to have to be exposed to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my employees to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my brands to that."

Cadice didn’t rule out ever using Kickstarter if the project is right, but the company won’t be using Kickstarter for large projects. "If we're ever going to consider going back to Kickstarter it's going to be because we have something small, tidy, and tight that's finished and we're ready to go," he explained. "We don't need to be out there with a hat in hand asking for huge development monies for a thing, because it's not a place where we need to be. Yes, there's an opportunity for developers, both big and small, to make money in that environment, but it is a poisonous ecosystem that cuts both ways. It's smarter to step away if you have the chance to do so."

Ninja Divison’s last big project on Kickstarter was the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures, for which the company raised $457,539 from 2294 backers.

The company is not the first to withdraw from Kickstarter (Stonemaier was a highly visible departure from the platform back in 2016), and it’s not likely to be the last, although the overall trends are strongly positive, with 36% growth in 2017 (see "In-Depth Kickstarter Study Finds Healthy Games Category"). But the risks and consequences of problems are substantial, and for this publisher, it’s no longer worth it.

TL;DR: John blames KS for his poorly run project and 'toxicity', and claims to not want to use KS again to avoid negative feelings.

Truth: John Created toxicity with taking people's money, and delivering nothing with years of deception, lies, scope changes, poor business management and so on, and none of that has to do with KS. He can't use KS again, because people are on to him and he has maxed out his social credit cards on how much fans will cash advance him. That isn't KS fault, that is taking too much money with no way to pay it back with product.

If he wants to recover, he can assume the risk of development on his own money, make products which he has in-hand and sell them... FOR MONEY.

**warboss**

Indeed... whatever toxicity that exists is the result of Ninja Soda DIvision Pop's failures to deliver on time and/or in full for years on multiple projects, not the reverse.

**DaveC**

Seriously now they are trying to blame backers! Sorry but no all of SPM/NDs problems are of their own making they happily took the money but now can’t deliver, backers have absolutely no control over a project how it’s run or how the money is spent.

There is no goodwill left to trade on so they can’t go to the KS well again they’ve already used the “create a new account trick” to hide past projects and backers are savvy enough to root out the real people behind a project.

I’ll wait for SDE Legends whenever it gets finished but I’m done with SPM/ND very glad I got a refund for Relic Knights when it became clear that SDE was in trouble.