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Edit:

Revisiting the original post now that I have gotten the feel of how conversations on DakkaDakka work.

There are a few things I believe the Grey Knights need. The appropriate point costs are debatable, but I believe the Grey Knights need these changes, or at least changes to the same effect.

1: Strike Squads should have Infiltrate instead of Deep Strike. Deep Strike on Strike Squads is already more fluffy than anything. They're supposed to teleport in first to set up Teleport Homers to allow the Terminators to arrive in force exactly where they're needed. The current problem is that they don't do that, and the only way they could would be if they are already on the table when the reserve rolls are made. And being as the Grey Knights have a formation that sacrifices Objective Secured for a chance of 1st turn Deep Strike, the only way for the Strike Squads to have the homers set up for the Terminators is if they have Infiltrate, to represent their early arrival.

2: The Grey Knights need access to Missile Launchers with Flakk Missiles. Chaos has flying Daemons, and the Grey Knights only anti-air is the Stormraven. Chaos has Soulgrinders (AV13), and all the Grey Knights have for that are the Vehicles and the Psycannons, which only have a 24" range, and only that if the model is stationary or Relentless. Missile Launchers are already available to several other factions, and are not over-powered in any way, and fill a role that the Grey Knights should be able to handle Fluff wise, but currently can't.

3: Salvo needs changed. Whether the short profile is treated as an assault weapon, or if it always uses the maximum range, something needs done. Because of Salvo, the Psycannon is useless for PAGK, and I know other factions have similar problems with their Salvo weapons.

(So far those are the three changes I've liked that have met with some degree of approval from others on the thread)

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/09/15 18:18:53


 
   
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I really don't think the Psycannon needs a two profiles. Salvo was made for weapons like it (and the Sonic Weapons of Noise Marines) and I don't see a reason to change it back.

At most I'd up it's range to 36" to give PAGK an 18" mobile range with it. Plus it'd give it comparable range to a Heavy Bolter when stationary. Not too overpowering, but definitely friendlier to the army all around (like to the HS slot).

And with Grey Knights having gotten cheaper almost completely across the board the only way I think they should get reduced DS scatter is either with a points bump, or having to buy it (Servo Skulls).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 01:54:04


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
I really don't think the Psycannon needs a two profiles. Salvo was made for weapons like it (and the Sonic Weapons of Noise Marines) and I don't see a reason to change it back.

At most I'd up it's range to 36" to give PAGK an 18" mobile range with it. Plus it'd give it comparable range to a Heavy Bolter when stationary. Not too overpowering, but definitely friendlier to the army all around (like to the HS slot).

And with Grey Knights having gotten cheaper almost completely across the board the only way I think they should get reduced DS scatter is either with a points bump, or having to buy it (Servo Skulls).


Thank you for the constructive criticism. The reason it always had two profiles was so the assault-based Grey Knights could assault with it. But admitting the logical change is why I also suggested the 36" Salvo profile.

Sadly the Grey Knights did not get cheaper across the board. But I wouldn't be opposed to paying an extra 10 points per unit to reduce their own Deep Strike. It would certainly be better than the Teleport Homers, or Servo Skulls.

Removed
Grand Master Mordrak 200 --> Gone
He always arrived turn 1 from Deep Strike without scatter.

Justicar Thawn 75 + Squad cost --> Gone
Would always come back from death, regardless of the cause.

Inquisitors and Assassins now in Dataslates.

Went up in cost:
Brotherhood Champion 100 --> 150
Lost his cheesy power, but is better at surviving challenges.

Castellan Crowe 150 --> 175
Lost Rending on a 4+, Beastly at challenges, useless for anything else.

Grand Master 175 --> 185
Traded upgrade options for an extra Mastery Level, 10 points more expensive.

Purgation Squad 100 --> 110
Gained nothing, lost special rules, 10 points more expensive.

Razorback 45 --> 55
Gained nothing, lost Psybolt, 10 points more expensive.

Purifiers 120 --> 125
An extra Mastery level is great for 5 points, especially since all the non-walker vehicles lost Psychic Pilot.

Dreadnought 115 --> 125
Lost the Psybolt option, and got more expensive

Strike Squad 100 --> 110
Nothing new, just more expensive.

Same Cost:
Paladin Squad (165 for 3) --> 165 (for 3)
The Apothecary upgrade got much cheaper, but now they have to pay for any change of melee weapons.

Brother Captain 150 --> 150

Techmarine 90 --> 90
Lost a bunch of his options.

Interceptor Squad 130 --> 130
Incinerators are decently priced now for them.

Lowered Costs:
Land Raider (All varients) 255 --> 250
That's 5 points for Psychic Pilot and Sanctuary. Bad trade.

Venerable Dreadnought 175 -->150
Substantial enough, even without Psyflemen anymore.

Stormraven 205 --> 200
That's 5 points for Psychic Pilot and Sanctuary. Bad trade.

Rhino 40 --> 35
That's 5 points for Psychic Pilot and Sanctuary. Bad trade.

Terminators 200 --> 165
Now they're around 200 points after the upgrades, so it works out.

Lord Kaldor Draigo 275 --> 245
Yes, Draigo is better, even with the mild nerf to his Stat line.

Brother Captain Stern 200 --> 185
He was unplayably expensive before, we'll see if this is enough.

Librarian 150 --> 110
The new King of the Grey Knight HQs.

Some equipment got better priced, others got worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 02:51:59


 
   
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You're not factoring the points drops on many of those units in terms of wargear options. A unit of Paladins equipped the same way you did with the last codex is cheaper now than it was then. That goes for most things in the book. No one takes naked models with no upgrades and using the base costs alone as proof is misleading.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 02:53:58


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're not factoring the points drops on many of those units in terms of wargear options. A unit of Paladins equipped the way you did with the last codex is cheaper now than it was then. That goes for most things in the book. No one takes naked models with no upgrades and using the base costs alone as proof is misleading.

The Apothecary dropped 55 points, and now you have to pay for Hammers and Halberds. On my 10-man squad, loaded with 10 hammers and 4 Psycannons for hunting vehicles, the Hammers were free and the Psycannons were 100 points. Now the Hammers are 100 points, and the Pycannons are 80 points. That's a net loss of 25 points and Fearless. Yes other builds that use more Falchions or Halberds might slant the other way, but not by much.

Please don't overstate the facts. You said virtually everything got cheaper, I showed the base numbers to prove otherwise. You then said that "No one takes naked models with no upgrades". That is false, because I do. Against some enemies you can't afford upgrades and have to field as many bodies as possible.

Don't accuse me of being misleading when I'm presenting facts to support my position and you've presented none. I'm providing numbers, If they're wrong, then provide the right ones. Otherwise you're just being rude. Also, I did mention wargear towards the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the cost of the units isn't the focus of my original post, so let's try to stay on topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 03:59:02


 
   
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ForeverARookie wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're not factoring the points drops on many of those units in terms of wargear options. A unit of Paladins equipped the way you did with the last codex is cheaper now than it was then. That goes for most things in the book. No one takes naked models with no upgrades and using the base costs alone as proof is misleading.

The Apothecary dropped 55 points, and now you have to pay for Hammers and Halberds. On my 10-man squad, loaded with 10 hammers and 4 Psycannons for hunting vehicles, the Hammers were free and the Psycannons were 100 points. Now the Hammers are 100 points, and the Pycannons are 80 points. That's a net loss of 25 points and Fearless. Yes other builds that use more Falchions or Halberds might slant the other way, but not by much.

You are probably the only person I've heard of running 10 hammers in a single Paladin unit. Congrats, you have done something outside the meta, or you're yanking my leg to make a point. the thing is your average player is still looking at a cheaper army list than they had, even if your army list somehow isn't.

ForeverARookie wrote:
Please don't overstate the facts. You said virtually everything got cheaper, I showed the base numbers to prove otherwise. You then said that "No one takes naked models with no upgrades". That is false, because I do. Against some enemies you can't afford upgrades and have to field as many bodies as possible.

Again, you're the only one I've heard of who does this. Maybe it's more desirable now, but with the old codex I don't recall many people not running Halbreds and Hammers for their units. Basic swords and Falchions were pretty unheard of in most army lists I ever saw.

And honestly, you're feeling argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. The army list did get cheaper for most people, even if your lists didn't. Because of that a free DS scatter reduction for the army seems too good. Through wargear like Servo Skulls or Teleport Homers is perfectly fine in my book, but not for free.

ForeverARookie wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the cost of the units isn't the focus of my original post, so let's try to stay on topic.

It was my point in regards to your DS scatter reduction for free idea. So it's about 10,000% on topic. To give the army another special rule (beyond every Infantry model being a Psyker, beyond the bonuses to fighting Daemons, which is enough rules to basically count as Chapter Tactics for the Grey Knights) something would have to give: namely they'd need a points bump. Which then charges the people who don't want to run DS lists for a rule they won't use. So now we're punishing some players and pigeonholing the codex into specific builds for the benefit of players who want that build.

It's not a well balanced idea and doesn't really balance the army. You want a balanced one? Bring Servo Skulls back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 04:17:27


 
   
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My issue with the Psycannon is that many people seem to forget what it actually is. It's an Assautl Cannon with a +1 to Strength and the ability to fire on the move if you aren't a vehicle or wearing terminator armour.

I understand why a lot of GK players see Salvo as a nerf, but seeing as it actually should be Heavy 4, Salvo is a pretty good bonus. The fact that the Assault Cannon is 20 points for Space Wolves while the Psycannon is availabel for as litle as 15 points just makes it even better. I'd love to have such a weapon availble at that price for my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws.

Ultimately of course, if a piece of optional wargear doesn't work for a unit the way you want to play the unit, don't take it. I dont take the same Battlesuit Support Systems on Broadsides that I do on Crisis Suits, Stealth Suis or Riptides.


Now, in regards to Deep Strike. GK should be a good Deep Strike army. Not the best mind you, the Blood Angels should have that honour, but they should still be good. So whatever is done for the GK for Deep Strike should be better than average, but not as good as what the Blood Angels have/will have.

My thought is that in the special GK formation/detatchment, replace the Deep Strike + Run and Shoot with a reduced Deep Strike Scatter (either reroll or only 1D6, but not both). This makes for accurate deep striking, but without the ability to deep strike accurately, shoot and run all on the first turn. That would be too much and really overshadow the Blood Angels' abilities.

In regards to the HQ prices, I'm not sure that it's that the other choices are too expensive. It could be that the Librarian is too cheap.

I do think there needed to be more GK specific weapon options on the vehicles and the Dreadnoughts. Psycannon of course being the most logical of them. Incinerator and Psilencer options should be there as well.

My concern with the list of changes presented is that they almost all are buffs of some kind or another. Yes the changes form the 5th edition codex were depowering, but the 5th ed codex was overpowered when it came out (not the least of which because they got to use the Allies rules, without having to pay the 'allies tax' in an edition where allies were not part of the game).

My impression of the 7th ed GK Codex was one of a strong and solidly built codex that could compete well with, for example, the Space Wolves codex that immediately preceeded it. A few units needed a nudge up or down, but nothing seemed so badly overcosted relative its capabilities to be a horrible choice.

I think a lot of the sting in the GK codex is because there are so few choices, with only a couple options in msot circumstances, that the best choice stands out so obviously that the lesser choices seem far inferior. Add in the usual internet hyperbole and suddenly things like Strike Squads or Psycannons seem to suck isntead of being decent, but not as good as other choices.

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Jefffar wrote:
My issue with the Psycannon is that many people seem to forget what it actually is. It's an Assautl Cannon with a +1 to Strength and the ability to fire on the move if you aren't a vehicle or wearing terminator armour.

You saw the original profile. The Psycannon was unique (S6, AP4, Ignores Invulnerable Saves, with either 18" at Assault 3 or 36" at Heavy 3). It's just now devolving into an Assault Cannon. Fluff-wise the Grey Knights were given the best, so it makes sense, especially since we don't get any of the other Heavy Weapons the other Space Marine factions have access to, so this one has to fill the role of all of them.

I understand why a lot of GK players see Salvo as a nerf, but seeing as it actually should be Heavy 4, Salvo is a pretty good bonus. The fact that the Assault Cannon is 20 points for Space Wolves while the Psycannon is availabel for as litle as 15 points just makes it even better. I'd love to have such a weapon availble at that price for my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws.

PAGK pay 15 points for 12", S7, AP4, 2 shots, Rending. They only get 24", Heavy 4 if they are stationary, a luxury not often afforded by Maelstrom missions. Terminators who always have the 24" profile pay 20 points. Again remember this is our only option for high-strength ranged attacks apart from Lascannons on vehicles, with a highly restrictive number of shots for the point costs.

My thought is that in the special GK formation/detatchment, replace the Deep Strike + Run and Shoot with a reduced Deep Strike Scatter (either reroll or only 1D6, but not both). This makes for accurate deep striking, but without the ability to deep strike accurately, shoot and run all on the first turn. That would be too much and really overshadow the Blood Angels' abilities.

You are correct. But I didn't intend to suggest both. Reduced Scatter is better than running and shooting on the turn they come in under most circumstances.

In regards to the HQ prices, I'm not sure that it's that the other choices are too expensive. It could be that the Librarian is too cheap.

Here I flat out disagree. Even if the Librarian went up in cost, the others still need to come down to be viable. Most of them are glorified close combat machines without much more to them. Not enough to influence the game enough to be worth their costs anyway.

My concern with the list of changes presented is that they almost all are buffs of some kind or another. Yes the changes form the 5th edition codex were depowering, but the 5th ed codex was overpowered when it came out (not the least of which because they got to use the Allies rules, without having to pay the 'allies tax' in an edition where allies were not part of the game).

In my experience, the 5th Edition Codex hasn't been over-powered since the 5th edition rulebook. The rules changes and power creep in 6th edition brought them down to everyone else. They were a decent mid-range army, which was good because the edition was extremely unfriendly to armies that relied on assaults, much like the current 7th edition partially due to those same 6th edition Codexes still being around.
Inquisition was just part of the Codex, not allies. And the Assassins weren't what I would consider "allies" as they were in the same Codex as Elites. It's not like they were fielding Leman Russes or C'tan Shards.
If I have two options, and one of them is sub par to the other, I essentially have one option. All I've suggested is to make the other options for Grey Knights close enough to the good ones that they are worth considering. If you look at the codex, even if they got all of the "buffs" I suggested, they're not going to be tabling opponents. They would simply have better variety in their list-building, which would make it harder for other players to tailor lists to crush them. One example I played a Necron 2000 point army and he brought 6 Fliers. My only anti-air in that game was a Firestorm Redoubt, and BS2 doesn't cut it when the enemy is erasing your Terminators with instant-death beams that ignore the Terminators' armor.
The Grey Knights were cut down too far, and the suggestions were to prop it up to where the others are. That's not to say that another Codex or two don't need the same, they do.


My impression of the 7th ed GK Codex was one of a strong and solidly built codex that could compete well with, for example, the Space Wolves codex that immediately preceeded it. A few units needed a nudge up or down, but nothing seemed so badly overcosted relative its capabilities to be a horrible choice.

If you can make a Maelstrom-viable 2000 point list of pure Grey Knights that isn't mostly Dreadknights and Storm Ravens, color me impressed. I haven't seen one yet.

I think a lot of the sting in the GK codex is because there are so few choices, with only a couple options in msot circumstances, that the best choice stands out so obviously that the lesser choices seem far inferior. Add in the usual internet hyperbole and suddenly things like Strike Squads or Psycannons seem to suck isntead of being decent, but not as good as other choices.

Grey Knights need to assault. So a weapon that can only be fired from assault range, yet prevents the unit from assaulting, is virtually worthless, and that is not hyperbole. The gun is not better than the unit charging, meaning they are penalized 2 S4 shots for each Psycannon in the shooting phase, as well as the AP and Nemesis rules for the Close Combat attacks. That is paying 15 points to nerf your unit (unless they're stationary and the enemy blunders into their field of fire).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 05:52:29


 
   
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Jefffar wrote:
Now, in regards to Deep Strike. GK should be a good Deep Strike army. Not the best mind you, the Blood Angels should have that honour, but they should still be good. So whatever is done for the GK for Deep Strike should be better than average, but not as good as what the Blood Angels have/will have.

There's the catch though: all models in a BA army that DS using Jump Packs only scatter 1D6. So any reduced scatter built into a GK army is automatically as good as what BA have, if not better. There really isn't a way to give it to the GK for free without overshadowing the BA (who are already basically hurting right now).

Jefffar wrote:
I do think there needed to be more GK specific weapon options on the vehicles and the Dreadnoughts. Psycannon of course being the most logical of them. Incinerator and Psilencer options should be there as well.

I had to look through IA2v2 to see what changed from the old one but FW has the Psycannon option floating around for: Land Raider Redeemer (comes standard instead of the Assault Cannon, is a HS slot), Vortimer Pattern Razorback (also standard, Dedicated Transport), Doomglaive Dreadnought (standard, also has an Incinerator built into it's CCW arm), Grey Knights Thunderhawk (replaces the Heavy Bolters when you buy the upgrades). I know some people don't like FW, but the bits are there and there are options to get them on more things at least. I agree the other two should get more availability though.

I did have a thought just now that might make the Psilencer a semi-viable option, activating Force on it gives it Rending (Daemon). That'd give it the potential to glance Daemonic vehicles that have AV13 or less. Plus make it a bit scarier on the table while at the same time compensating for it's S4, AP- that it has as well without giving it for free (since people can deny Blessings now and you can always fail to get it off). It's a small buff that could at least make it more useful in general. Just a very random thought that might not actually help all that much, but it's an idea.
   
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There's the catch though: all models in a BA army that DS using Jump Packs only scatter 1D6. So any reduced scatter built into a GK army is automatically as good as what BA have, if not better. There really isn't a way to give it to the GK for free without overshadowing the BA (who are already basically hurting right now).

I wouldn't feel bad for the Blood Angels just yet. They'll have a new Codex coming out soon, so we should wait to see if they get the 6th Edition buffs or the 7th edition shaft before we get too invested.

   
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ForeverARookie wrote:
There's the catch though: all models in a BA army that DS using Jump Packs only scatter 1D6. So any reduced scatter built into a GK army is automatically as good as what BA have, if not better. There really isn't a way to give it to the GK for free without overshadowing the BA (who are already basically hurting right now).

I wouldn't feel bad for the Blood Angels just yet. They'll have a new Codex coming out soon, so we should wait to see if they get the 6th Edition buffs or the 7th edition shaft before we get too invested.

Still, stealing one of their only defining rules would be a pretty low blow, even if they do get a decent update (and if it's really decent I might use it to field my Sisters army just for something more interesting than what the current Sisters codex brings).
   
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If i was allowed to make just 1 change in GK codex, i'd bump Dreadknight's shunt-teleporter (or whatever this auto-include thing's called) cost to 50-60 pts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 06:14:37


 
   
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ForeverARookie wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I understand why a lot of GK players see Salvo as a nerf, but seeing as it actually should be Heavy 4, Salvo is a pretty good bonus. The fact that the Assault Cannon is 20 points for Space Wolves while the Psycannon is availabel for as litle as 15 points just makes it even better. I'd love to have such a weapon availble at that price for my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws.

PAGK pay 15 points for 12", S7, AP4, 2 shots, Rending. They only get 24", Heavy 4 if they are stationary, a luxury not often afforded by Maelstrom missions. Terminators who always have the 24" profile pay 20 points. Again remember this is our only option for high-strength ranged attacks apart from Lascannons on vehicles, with a highly restrictive number of shots for the point costs.


Those GK terminators still pay the same price as SW terminators, but get a +1 to stength. If balance is a real concern, the GK terminators should pay extra for their psycannons.

I agree there are things about the Psycannon that may be suboptimal for PAGK, but that doesn't mean it has to be re-written. Again, not all options in a codex have to be optimal for all units and all purposes. Like I mentioned, just because Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits and Riptides choose from the same list of wargear, it doesn't make each choice a good one for each unit. Likewise I choose diferrent options for my Blood Claws and my Grey Hunters.

That said, there is a use for the Psycannon in PAGK units, in particular in Malestorm missions. The GK have inherited that wonderous ability of most marine chapters to combat squad. Allowing one squad to hold two different objectives. A squad holding an objective is typically not going to move, nor is it going to assault. Under those circumstances a strength 7, AP 4, weapon firing 4 shots for 15 points is a steal. You plant 1 combat squad with one (or two) Psycannon(s) on an objective and dare the enemy to come and push you off. The other combat squad either sits on another objective with it's own Psycannon, or moves forward using the fire of the other combat squad's Psycannon(s) to soften up the objective they wish to assualt.


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ok first of all telling people to not post unless they agree with you is hardly a good way to get constructive feedback.

that said, I've said it ebfore but I don't think the answer to the GKs ranged woes is to buff the Psycannon, for what it is it's already a wonderful weapon. In the long term I think what the GK need is additional weapons. you're absolutly right that the GK arsenal is somewhat lacking in tools to deal with deamon engines. (right now the best they have are dreadknights in melee, storm ravens, and dreadnoughts) at the same time right now GKs also have a mostly useless specialist unit in their pugation squads. they're basicly supposed to be "GK devestators" but with the absurd short range on GK special weapons they're not really that useful.

Basicly IMHO the Psycanon is good as is, and the problem isn't so much the psycannon as the lack of other options.

as such I present a proposed new GK weapon. The PsyLance.

The Psylance employs arcane technologies to tightly focus a beam powered by the very psykic potential of it's operator into a white hot beam of force.with a slow rate of fire in comparison to Psycanons. the Psylance benifits by it's greater range and penatrative capabilities.

STR 7 Heavy 1, Range 36 Lance.

Basicly my idea is to give the GKs their own answer to the Lascanon, making it specialist eneugh that it's largely going to be over shadowed by the more common Psycannon for most operations, but give the GKs a viable anti-armor long range option

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I like the lance idea, in concept (a lance on a knight) and stats (although you forgot the ap value).

In fact, it would give more flexibility to a GK detachment (and, to some extent, less monobuild), but truth to be told, I like the concept of psilencers (liked the look of those even in the previous edition) and actually I decided to put some on my PAGKs.

Also, as I auggested in the last thread, I would extend the deep striking capability to all infantry. Preparations and techniques to do it are already known to the Grey Knights (Strike Squads employ them), and I have the "feeling" that GKs would have this 'deep striking numbers' capability more than precision, which I imagine more for BAs (the former arrive en masse and faster by teleporting, the latter pinpoint few squads, somewhat later, but on mark).

Also, rites of teleportation allow to compensate at least part of the deep striking scatter, or optimizing it:
ds on mark, shoot, run in cover;
ds, scatter, shoot, run out of range;
ds, scatter, run in position, shoot.

I would also reintroduce servo skulls options (to brother-captains, grand masters, librarians).

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I'd assume the lance would be AP2, like most other lances.
   
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Jefffar wrote:
Those GK terminators still pay the same price as SW terminators, but get a +1 to stength. If balance is a real concern, the GK terminators should pay extra for their psycannons.

I agree there are things about the Psycannon that may be suboptimal for PAGK, but that doesn't mean it has to be re-written. Again, not all options in a codex have to be optimal for all units and all purposes. Like I mentioned, just because Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits and Riptides choose from the same list of wargear, it doesn't make each choice a good one for each unit. Likewise I choose diferrent options for my Blood Claws and my Grey Hunters.

"not all options in a codex have to be optimal for all units and all pourposes". Again I say, the Psycannon is the ONLY ranged weapon with decent strength capable of handling high Toughness or high AV. When our one and only option is "suboptimal" things don't work. Lascannons on vehicles aren't an option because they are so expensive to field, and don't provide the number of shots needed to face the vastly larger armies the Grey Knights come up against.

BrianDavion wrote:
ok first of all telling people to not post unless they agree with you is hardly a good way to get constructive feedback.

That is not what I said. I asked people to only respond if they HAD something constructive to say. Pointing out a couple things that don't work is fine, if you provide an alternative. On the other hand, just telling me that all the nerfs are fine, and I really need to buck up, is not fine. It isn't constructive, and is really demeaning, which isn't what this is for. As I said, there are things I'm not happy with, I'd like to see changed, and I've already had my ears talked off by people who disagree. It's not that people can't disagree with me, its that there is absolutely no benefit to reiterating what half a dozen people have said before you. I know what you have to say, there's no need to clog my thread saying it.

Edit: There is nothing constructive or beneficial if someone is just tearing down all of someone else's ideas, especially if the person is going out of his way to do so.

that said, I've said it ebfore but I don't think the answer to the GKs ranged woes is to buff the Psycannon, for what it is it's already a wonderful weapon. In the long term I think what the GK need is additional weapons. you're absolutly right that the GK arsenal is somewhat lacking in tools to deal with deamon engines. (right now the best they have are dreadknights in melee, storm ravens, and dreadnoughts) at the same time right now GKs also have a mostly useless specialist unit in their pugation squads. they're basicly supposed to be "GK devestators" but with the absurd short range on GK special weapons they're not really that useful.

For example, this is fine, because you aren't just saying that we should all be happy with the Psycannon. You're happy with it, but you also acknowledge that The Grey Knights are lacking in ranged-weapon department. I'd agree, that the Psycannon could be left as is if there were other weapons to fill the role, However, being as how Lazy GW has gotten, just removing units they never got around to making models for, it would be much easier to turn the already existing Psycannon into the weapon Grey Knights need, instead of creating a new one, still leaving all of those modeled Psycannons sub-par.

Basicly IMHO the Psycanon is good as is, and the problem isn't so much the psycannon as the lack of other options.

as such I present a proposed new GK weapon. The PsyLance.

The Psylance employs arcane technologies to tightly focus a beam powered by the very psykic potential of it's operator into a white hot beam of force.with a slow rate of fire in comparison to Psycanons. the Psylance benifits by it's greater range and penatrative capabilities.

STR 7 Heavy 1, Range 36 Lance.

Basicly my idea is to give the GKs their own answer to the Lascanon, making it specialist eneugh that it's largely going to be over shadowed by the more common Psycannon for most operations, but give the GKs a viable anti-armor long range option


So you have sugested a Missile Launcher with -1 Krak Strength, no listed AP, no Frag option, no Flakk option, -12" range, with Lance. The standard missile launcher with the Flakk options would help the Grey Knights more, and would take less effort on GW's part.

I honestly think the best answer to the Grey Knights lack of shooting would be to add the Missile Launcher (even if it's just Purgation Squads), and the PAGK Psycannon needs either extra range, or not prevent them from assaulting. As it currently stands by your own admittance. Taking a Psycannon on PAGK is declaring that it will sit on an objective to the best of its ability, and fire at enemies that come within 24". 15 points is too much for a weapon that limits an otherwise versitile unit to a single role, especially when the previous codex was less restrictive, and for only 10 points.

The Psycannon wasn't broken going into 7th. The only way a Grey Knight player would be beating everyone is if he were actually just that much better than them (or using loaded dice). I'm decent at the game, and lost nearly 2/3 of the games I played against anyone who wasn't new to the game.


People keep saying that maybe the other HQs aren't over-priced, maybe the Librarian is just under-priced. The Grey Knight Librarian costs 110 points base, and a Space Marine Librarian at ML2, in Terminator Armor is 115. 5 points difference isn't the problem here. The other HQs are 150 points or more. For units that don't do anything until they get into close combat, and even then aren't juggernauts, that is way too much for an army that is already outnumbered by everyone. That is why I suggested a 25 point drop in each of their prices except the Librarian and Techmarine.

If the HQs were a dining set, and all of the chairs were broken in some way or another except for one. A rational person fixes the other chairs, they don't break the one that works.

The same goes for the ranged weapons. The Psycannon was fine in the previous Codex. It was a good weapon. Some opponents hated it because it was the only ranged weapon in the army that reliably did anything. But nerfing it to make the Incinerator and Psilencer more attractive wasn't the answer. They were the broken chairs in the metaphor. The Psilencer can't hurt anything higher than Strength 7, and Force doesn't change that. The Incinerator is still limited to that 8ish inch range of the Template.

If you take a sub-par weapon (like the Psilencer) and improve it to being level with an on-par weapon, you aren't making the army more powerful, because players were already fielding just the better weapon. By making them comparable, you're making the army more diverse, which is better to play as, and against.

If the Psilencer had its strength increased to 6, OR (See the word 'OR', not 'and') had it's number of shots increased to 8, It would have been on par with the Psycannon. It would statistically result in fewer wounds, but Force would bring it up to par with the Psycannon.

The Incinerator's range is an issue. The Dreadknight fixes that by making it Torrent, an option that can't be afforded to the regular Incinerator. However the Promethium Relay Pipes do just that, only requiring them to be stationary within 2" of it. That alone makes the Incinerator behind the Pipes a better option for defensive deployments than the Purgation Squad with the current Psycannons. For -1 Strength, you get Ignores cover at 20ish inches in the form of a Torrent weapon. But the Incinerator is an assault weapon, so it would be nice if there were an easier way of using it on the move before getting in the enemy's face. That's why I proposed my final "wish list" suggestion. Torrent Incinerators firing out of a Rhino would provide the Grey Knights with Ignores Cover at a range able to hit units in ruins other than the one taken on Dreadknights. And making the upgrade cost as much as a Promethium Relay Pipe (5 points more than the Rhino itself) is a fair ballance, as it brings the cost up to the most expensive Razorback build, and is only useful while the unit is embarked within. The limitations are built into the perk, so others aren't needed.

For Contrast, Tau ignore cover on everything with their Marker Lights, So improving Incinerators fired from one vehicle isn't out of balance or over powered in.
Devistator Squads have good range on them, which is entirely absent from Purgation Squads. 24" doesn't cut it when you're getting shot at constantly from 36"+.
Other Factions have a weapon for each role, it'd be nice if the Grey Knights had that luxury, but apart from the Dreadknights armament, they have the Psycannon to do what other factions have 3-4 distinct weapons to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Many posters don't read what I posted vary closely, then comment on something they didn't like, that isn't what I actually said. Usually it's when I propose one or another fix to a unit, them people clog the thread with "this is why the unit can't have both those perks". I never suggested giving them BOTH. They just seem to have a problem with the concept of "or".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 17:35:51


 
   
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Speaking as someone who uses a lot of flamers (Sisters, I used Melta/Heavy Flamer as my basis for most units) giving torrent out of a vehicle would be too good. When you also add in that the Incinerator is a Heavy Flamer with +1 Str and an additional bonus to potentially setting models on fire (Soul Blaze) then it would be nigh on broken to give it torrent (unless, say, it were mounted as a turret on a Razorback, because I feel Torrent or Fast is the only way Template weapon vehicles really work well).

I still think that perhaps giving the Psilencer Rending (Daemon) (as it has Rending when used on models with the Daemon special rule when Force is activate) when the Force power is activated would help it a lot without changing it's statline around.

As for the Incinerator, I don't see a lot to change it. Like flamers it doesn't have a lot of wide spread use, but the uses it does have ensure that it' can fit into a list fairly handily. I honestly think that they have a lot of potential on Interceptors for instance.
   
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ForeverARookie wrote:
Request for common courtesy.
[

If only one change could be made to this Codex, it would have to be the Psycannon. The current version of it was demoted to Salvo, and increased in cost by 50% for PAGK. The new Codex describes the intended use of each unit on page 14. If PAGK move, they only get 2 shots at 12”, and they are still prevented from assaulting. PAGK can’t make good use of the Psycannon because they are so reliant on moving to stay alive. 12” is charge range, and given the option, they will virtually always be better off assaulting than firing the weapon. 15 points on top of already giving up their Nemesis Force Sword and 24” Storm Bolter is far too expensive, especially when it prevents the whole unit from assaulting. The Psycannon has been the backbone of the Grey Knights for 11 years, and to render it useless for the majority of units in the Codex is a giant middle finger to the faction and its players from GW.
An easy fix for the Psycannon would be to go back to the 5th or 3rd Edition profile.
7th Edition Psycannon:
24” S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4, Rending

5th Edition Psycannon:
24” S7 AP4 Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending

3rd Edition Psycannon:
18” S6 AP4 Assault 3, Ignores Invulnerable Saves
36” S6 AP4 Heavy 3, Ignores Invulnerable Saves

Personally, I’d like to see something between the two.
Proposed Psycannon:
18” S7 AP4 Assault 2, Rending
36” S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Rending

Or barring that, I'd even be happy with:
36" S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4, Rending

The longer range for firing stationary would allow Purgation Squads to fill the Devastator role they’re designed for more efficiently, and the 18” range would be useful enough to warrant taking on highly mobile units.

I’d like to see Psycannon options on vehicles, but Forge World is already working on that.


This is a problem with all salvo weapons. Salvo as a rule is written terribly. The solution is not to make Grey Knights salvo weapons special or increase their range but instead to change the way Salvo works. This will fix grav guns, sonic blasters, psycannons, and soon to be Splinter Cannons all at the same time.


but beyond that, psycannons are kind of silly. 4 shots at str7 rending on basic troops is obscene. Following that it is a psyinfused assault cannon, wait. Why is it a psyinfused assault cannon. Does it look like an assault cannon? No. Is there a reason that it should be good at both anti armor and anti infantry, while moving and while stationary, with a huge number of shots to make it basically foolproof? I dont see the balance here.

I think psycannons should have a completely unique profile and a completely unique set of rules.

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Out of curiosity, how would you change Salvo Exergy? Not half the range when moving? Because that's the only thing I think could change fairly (halving the shots while moving fits most of the old stat lines of being a small number of shots as assault weapons and a larger number as heavy).
   
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 Exergy wrote:
This is a problem with all salvo weapons. Salvo as a rule is written terribly. The solution is not to make Grey Knights salvo weapons special or increase their range but instead to change the way Salvo works. This will fix grav guns, sonic blasters, psycannons, and soon to be Splinter Cannons all at the same time.

Good point, I suggested fixing the Psycannon through it's own rules, but fixing it through fixing Salvo would be better for the other factions as a whole. What would you fix it to. I'd be happy if the short profile counted as an Assault Weapon, but that's likely not what other factions would want.

but beyond that, psycannons are kind of silly. 4 shots at str7 rending on basic troops is obscene. Following that it is a psyinfused assault cannon, wait. Why is it a psyinfused assault cannon. Does it look like an assault cannon? No. Is there a reason that it should be good at both anti armor and anti infantry, while moving and while stationary, with a huge number of shots to make it basically foolproof? I dont see the balance here.

The same weapon is was our only widely useful weapon on our, Elite, Fast and Heavy categories too, not just troops. So by nerfing the weapon for troops, it cut the legs out from most of the army as well.

I think psycannons should have a completely unique profile and a completely unique set of rules.

That's what it originally was, but GW's moving in the other direction.
It used to have the dual profile:
18" S6 AP4 Assault 3, Ignores Invulnerable saves
36" S6 AP4 Heavy 3, Ignores Invunerable saves.

Now it has:
12" S7 AP4 (full ballistic skill but prevents assault) 2, Rending
24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4, Rending.

We currently have the Heavy Psycannon which is essentially
24" S7 AP4 Heavy 6, Rending
(because the Salvo profile is a joke as it will always have the better profile unless GW plans on changing Salvo)

I'd like to see the regular Psycannon split into two variants.
The First would be the version available to Terminators, exactly as it is.
The second would be a special weapon available to probably only Purifiers and Purgation Squads with the 36" salvo.

The weapons are made useful and people could stop complaining about a good gun actually being on a Troops choice. As a bonus I would be able to field some of the 20+ PAGK I have modeled with Psycannons (I fielded the Purifier Apocalypse formation with 4 Psycannons in each unit, in my 6th edition WYSIWYG Apocalypse army).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Salvo were changed to "may fire the full number of shots as a Heavy weapon, or half the number of shots as an Assault weapon, but always uses the full range"...

It would be better for everyone. And Grey Knights would benefit because it would return the Psycannon to exactly what it was in 6th Edition. I'd accept the 50% cost increase on PAGK if they could just use this profile, which is just a tidier version of the old profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Speaking as someone who uses a lot of flamers (Sisters, I used Melta/Heavy Flamer as my basis for most units) giving torrent out of a vehicle would be too good. When you also add in that the Incinerator is a Heavy Flamer with +1 Str and an additional bonus to potentially setting models on fire (Soul Blaze) then it would be nigh on broken to give it torrent (unless, say, it were mounted as a turret on a Razorback, because I feel Torrent or Fast is the only way Template weapon vehicles really work well).


Only 2 models can fire out of a Rhino's top hatch, and they have to target the same unit. Why would you find it acceptable for a vehicle to have Torrent Incinerators of it's own, but not allow an identical vehicle firing the exact same weapons via infantry through a Fire Point. The Rhino is 35points, and I proposed 40 points for the upgrade, bringing the Rhino up to 75 points, the same cost as a Razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade. My proposal was actually weaker than yours, being as it can only use the Torrent Incinerators while the unit is embarked inside, and you're calling mine over powered? What's the deal?

In my experience Soul Blaze isn't all its cracked up to be. It has a 50% chance of dying out the first turn, 75% chance of dying out by the second. Additionally the unit can usually take saves from it, so it rarely does anything against non-swarms.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 15:25:10


 
   
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 koooaei wrote:
If i was allowed to make just 1 change in GK codex, i'd bump Dreadknight's shunt-teleporter (or whatever this auto-include thing's called) cost to 50-60 pts.


Thats only 20-10 points less than its old codex, which is contrary to the point that it was overpriced originally.

Last thing GK need is something to have its points increase.

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Mod note: As in any thread on Dakka, people who disagree are also free to post, of course. The onus is on those who are proposing an idea and those who have criticism of it to remain polite- not just on one side or the other.

That said, now that this has been addressed let's remain on-topic (Grey Knight proposed rules and feedback on such).

Thanks!


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/09 15:52:18


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Out of curiosity, how would you change Salvo Exergy? Not half the range when moving? Because that's the only thing I think could change fairly (halving the shots while moving fits most of the old stat lines of being a small number of shots as assault weapons and a larger number as heavy).


I think salvo should be more similar to rapid fire use to be.

not moving 2 shots at long range or 4 shots at close range
moving 0-1 shot at long range or 2 shots at close range

not sure if relentless should allow always moving. Getting the full range and ROF at long range when you dont move is just excessively good. When you compare it to moving, where you get hit by the range and the ROF penalty it just becomes awful to move.

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 Exergy wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Out of curiosity, how would you change Salvo Exergy? Not half the range when moving? Because that's the only thing I think could change fairly (halving the shots while moving fits most of the old stat lines of being a small number of shots as assault weapons and a larger number as heavy).


I think salvo should be more similar to rapid fire use to be.

not moving 2 shots at long range or 4 shots at close range
moving 0-1 shot at long range or 2 shots at close range

not sure if relentless should allow always moving. Getting the full range and ROF at long range when you dont move is just excessively good. When you compare it to moving, where you get hit by the range and the ROF penalty it just becomes awful to move.

I can see where you're coming from there, but I'd have to actually try playing with it that way before I could really get behind it or not. It changes enough that I don't know how well it'd work or not just by looking at it.
   
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ForeverARookie wrote:

Many posters don't read what I posted vary closely, then comment on something they didn't like, that isn't what I actually said.


Welcome to the internet.

ForeverARookie wrote:

Let whatever few people who agree with me at least partially have this thread, and we'll keep this discussion off of yours. Is that too much to ask?


Yes, it is too much to ask for. If the only people who get to post are those who agree with you, then the discussion becomes cheer leadering for your viewpoint in the resulting vacuum. Sort of like one of the two main US political partiers becomes an echo chamber. I think we can all agree which that one is (see? It's not just GW that can be ambiguous). If an Ork player wants all orks to have a 4+ FNP for 1 point and the whole of internet discussion is in favor of it and then GW then every other army gets devalued. As a result, anyone who is NOT Orks will have a reason to weigh in and oppose the orkthink.

ForeverARookie wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok first of all telling people to not post unless they agree with you is hardly a good way to get constructive feedback.

That is not what I said. I asked people to only respond if they HAD something constructive to say. Pointing out a couple things that don't work is fine, if you provide an alternative. On the other hand, just telling me that all the nerfs are fine, and I really need to buck up, is not fine. It isn't constructive, and is really demeaning, which isn't what this is for. As I said, there are things I'm not happy with, I'd like to see changed, and I've already had my ears talked off by people who disagree. It's not that people can't disagree with me, its that there is absolutely no benefit to reiterating what half a dozen people have said before you. I know what you have to say, there's no need to clog my thread saying it.


Something I'd always thought would be helpful is if people would post what they thought would be the points value of things they cheer for or whine about. Wave serpents for example. If the shield is OP, how many points do you think it is worth? If you say 50, can I then leave it off and spend those 50 points elsewhere when playing you? If you say 5, can I add it to my SM Rhino's when playing you? If you say no to those house rules, then, IMO, you are being disingenuous at best in your assignment of point values.

The 75 point torrent rhino (35 base, 40 upg) mentioned in this thread, which I will call "Promethium Tank" (entendre intended) is a good example of that, if not one I agree with. I think giving GK the option of firing two psycannons out the top or two (combi?) flamers is a bit much. At the least I think it would need to lose the firing points since the Promethium relay is a static element and the rhino is mobile, though I would keep the PAGK flamer on board requirement. Combi flamers, etc should NOT be allowed (IMO) to connect to the Promethium Tank. It should probably also be forward arc only and not benefit from any special rule stacking. AKA no 3+ bolstered ruin cover pre-faq helldrake 360 torrent flamer for you.

As for point values in general, a versatile do-anything unit should always cost more than a specialized guys. A PAGK with a heavy weapon and a PAGK with just a power weapon should cost less than a 2 wound PA guy with both. Using this reasoning, the GKNDK base price should start at the price of 4 termie's, since they get 4 wounds and a 2+. Instant death and related vulnerabilties is offset by T6, MC relentless/move through cover and jump rules/options, not taking two FOC slots, etc. You don't necessarily need to pay 4x for a gun, but since an upgrade on a 2 wound model is worth more than an upgrade on a 1 wound model you've clearly got to be paying much more in on a 4 wounder unless there is a sufficient "baked in " price on the carrier itself.

I think we can all agree that the GK got shafted in terms of not being able to play much of an army with just their codex, but $$ changes and rule changes are different complaint boxes.

   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Welcome to the internet.

Not helpful.

Yes, it is too much to ask for. If the only people who get to post are those who agree with you, then the discussion becomes cheer leadering for your viewpoint in the resulting vacuum. Sort of like one of the two main US political partiers becomes an echo chamber. I think we can all agree which that one is (see? It's not just GW that can be ambiguous). If an Ork player wants all orks to have a 4+ FNP for 1 point and the whole of internet discussion is in favor of it and then GW then every other army gets devalued. As a result, anyone who is NOT Orks will have a reason to weigh in and oppose the orkthink.

Also not helpful. A moderator already commented on the topic, so you're just being redundant. My intent was just to ask people to refrain from exclusively negative posts. Even someone who disagrees can formulate a response that's encouraging, and that's all I wanted.

Something I'd always thought would be helpful is if people would post what they thought would be the points value of things they cheer for or whine about. Wave serpents for example. If the shield is OP, how many points do you think it is worth? If you say 50, can I then leave it off and spend those 50 points elsewhere when playing you? If you say 5, can I add it to my SM Rhino's when playing you? If you say no to those house rules, then, IMO, you are being disingenuous at best in your assignment of point values.

You'll have to be clearer about what you're satirizing here. Posting what I think the changes should cost? I've done that in places, and they're open for people to express different views. The Wave Serpent's shield is what threw me. You propose house-ruling the cost, then argue that it should be permitted as an upgrade for a vehicle of a different faction, otherwise the opponent is being disingenuous?

Even the same upgrade isn't worth the same for all units, even within the same faction. A Power Sword would be worth much more on an Oghren than on a generic guardsman. The Wave Serpent shield argument has no bearing on the matter. I compared the Razorback to the Rhino. The ONLY differences between the two are One has a big gun, and the other has a 2-model firepoint and the ability to un-immobilize itself. The suggested point costs bring it to the upper end costs of the most similar vehicle, which is on the exact same Chassis (11,11,10).

The 75 point torrent rhino (35 base, 40 upg) mentioned in this thread, which I will call "Promethium Tank" (entendre intended) is a good example of that, if not one I agree with. I think giving GK the option of firing two psycannons out the top or two (combi?) flamers is a bit much. At the least I think it would need to lose the firing points since the Promethium relay is a static element and the rhino is mobile, though I would keep the PAGK flamer on board requirement. Combi flamers, etc should NOT be allowed (IMO) to connect to the Promethium Tank. It should probably also be forward arc only and not benefit from any special rule stacking. AKA no 3+ bolstered ruin cover pre-faq helldrake 360 torrent flamer for you.

I like the term "Promethium Tank". Rhinos can already fire two models out the top. That's not the suggestion I was making, though that seems to be what you're shooting down. Your agument against Combi-flamers isn't needed because Grey Knights' only access to Combi-weapons are on HQs who can't get inside a Rhino. And it'd be pointless to stick Combi-flamers in there anyway, as a 40 point upgrade is way too much to waste on a weapon that can only use it's flamer profile once per game.

"It should probably also be forward arc only and not benefit from any special rule stacking. AKA no 3+ bolstered ruin cover pre-faq helldrake 360 torrent flamer for you."
Huh? I understand the reasoning for limiting it to a forward firing arc, as you could explain that the flamers are on a temporary mount which prevents more than 90* turning. But that second part has no bearing on my proposal. The Rhino looks exactly the same. It doesn't gain any ruins rules, the upgrade doesn't generate cover, and anything purchased as part of the army can't be bolstered already. I really don't see where you're going with this, as it seems you're just grabbing for stuff to tear apart.

I do like the "Promethium Tanks" for the name of the upgrade, and limited to a 180* forward firing arc would be perfectly acceptible, even though the reason the Helldrake needed the FAQ was because as a Flier with an AP3 and Ignores Cover on a torrent is too powerful, and the Rhino is a light tank (non-flier), with AP4 (It doesn't erase Space Marines without giving them saves).


I think we can all agree that the GK got shafted in terms of not being able to play much of an army with just their codex, but $$ changes and rule changes are different complaint boxes.

Agreed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 18:13:31


 
   
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I don't play GK, but I do agree that the codex is lacking in a few areas. Also, I don't know why people think that the Grey Knight Codex should only be tailored for taking out daemons. I'm a hardcore fluff bunny, but I still think that every army should be able to compete at all levels with every army.
That being said, GKs are fairly balanced in the following areas:

Anti-horde: incinerators, psilencers, and storm bolters are all effective weapons at taking out large amounts of light infantry models and falchions give them extra attacks in CC to cause more casualties.

Anti-elite: Everyone carries force weapons and have access to daemon hammers so they can really mess up elites in CC. Psycannons are still good dealing with them too as they have high strength and rending. If you really hate the psycannon, there's always the dreadknight with AP2 CC attacks or a Librarian with psychic shriek

Psychic phase: with nearly every unit counting as a psyker, you're guarenteed to have enough warp charges to get a few powers of in your psychic phase and also deny crucial ones in your opponents phase.

Anti vehicle: Hammers, dreadnoughts with lascannons, Dreadknights, and Stormravens are all viable options that can dish out damage to all vehicles including armour 14.

Challenges: Most of your charcters can hold their own in CC and the champions are particularly good with their AP2 attacks in a challenge.

Monstrous creatures: Again, hammers, dreadnoughts, dreadknight, and stormravens are effective options. But you can also instant kill them with force weapons as well.

Durability: They're as durable as any other power armour faction out there. Rhinos, land raiders can keep them safe from enemy fire and you can always attach a terminator armored character to strike squads to soak up wounds.

Mobility: Deep strike, gate, stormravens, interceptors and transports are all options to consider when you need to get them somewhere in a hurry.

As you can see, the GK codex does a good fob of giving you options in all of the above areas, but there are a couple that they are lacking in.:

Anti- flyer/ flying monstrous creature: The stormraven is their only answer to this and one option is never good. To fix this, I'd suggest giving purgation squads the following special rule: "Astral aim: at the start of your shooting phase, puragation squads can choose whether or not to give their weapons the skyfire special rule for the remainder of their shooting phase." Since they've already given up their force weapons, I think this rule should be free and automatically part of their profile. This is a nice way to give them at least one more ant-flyer option. 2 is still a little shaky so I'd say they should have a couple other options for dealing with flyers, I'm just not sure what they should be.

Lacking cheap fodder units: Not necessary. GKs are naturally meant to be the elite fighting force of 40k. I'm sure this is one of the main reasons why GK players actually play GKs. They like idea of being outnumbered and welcome the chance to prove that weight of numbers doesn't ensure victory. I'm content to leave this to allies. If you hate being out numbered, grey knights are not the army for you and you shouldn't complain about it.

Since the title is "Balancing Grey Knights" I believe that GKs are balanced in every aspect except the 2 I mentioned. The only other change I would propose is jacking up the price of the Librarian. He's too good as is and makes the other HQ choices (which I think are appropriately priced) seem less viable. These are my thoughts on what needs to be changed from a hopefully non-biased perspective.

4000
wordbearers 3000
1000 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners



Ohio

ironhammer2194, Thank you for the effort, but the suggestions are biased from a non-GK perspective.

Your response also takes only the title into account and ignores the original post, making it off topic for this thread.

Spoiler:
The Librarian is only 5 points cheaper than a comparably geared Space Marine Librarian. Any more than than a 5 point increase would be objectively over priced. The fact that the Librarian is so much better priced than the others, while being comparable to the Space Marine Librarian, is proof that the other GK HQs are over-priced. If you were to play them, you would find that they do not earn their points back in a game. They're good in close combat, but average at anything else. They just have no reason to take them over the fairly priced Librarian.

6th and 7th Editions are extremely unfriendly to assault-based armies, and the Grey Knights is an assault-based army, even more so now with Psycannon nerf taking them entirely out of the shooting phase. Close combat answers to problems can be hard to implement when the game is so built for shooting. Transports get shot down all the time at my Local Gaming Store, and without even Servo-skulls, Grey Knights only get reduced scatter if the arrive on the tail of a friendly unit that shelled out 10 points for a Homer. Many of the things you stated that they can do fine, are sufficiently costly that the player would have to tailor his list to the opponent's army to be able to field the appropriate counter units, just to have a fair chance of victory. Example: Falchions are good for swarms, but Hammers are needed for Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles. Unless you know what you're up against, your best bet is to have a bit of each, so you're capable of both, even if you're not great at either.

Storm Bolters and Psilencers can't hurt T8 or AV11. And Lascannons can only be taken on Razorbacks (75points) or Land Raiders (250points). If Storm Ravens are brought to combat fliers and Dreadknights for the mobility and firepower, there aren't many points left over for those Lascannons. So even though we have options that are capable of filling roles, they're not necessarily good at it.


Much of the codex was nerfed, and you want to balance it by nerfing the rest. I would recommend actually playing the army before deciding it needs to lose more.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Regarding the cost of the HQs, I think the other HQs aren't TOO bad in context. Comparing the SM HQs to ther GK HQs they work out alright.

Let's compare for a moment:

Space Marine Terminator Captain vs a GK BC vs a CSM Termy Lord/

C:SM Term Cap:WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: power weapon, stormbolter, Terminator Armor.Iron Halo
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Independant Character
Cost: 120 points

CSM Terminator Lord WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Power Weapon, Twinlinked bolter, Terminator Armor
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independant Character
Cost: 105 points (note they do not have a iron halo thus unless you buy it seperatly only get a 5+ invul save)

GK Brother Captain: WS 6 BS 5 S4 T4 W3, I 5 LD 10
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Nemisis Force Sword, Frag Grenades, Kark Grenades, Psyk Out Grenades, Iron Halo
Special Rules: Psyker (ML 1) ATSKNF, Perfered Enemy: Deamons, The Aegis, Purity of Spirit
Cost: 150 points.

Anyway, Grey Knights basicly have Prefered enemy: Deamons, The Aegis and Purity of spirit as their chapter tactics. so let's ignore that for a moment and focus on what a GK BC has that a Vanilla Marine Captain does not. First up, and most obvious, he has Mastery Level 1, he also has a nemisis force sword over a power sword, and grenades (GKs as far as I know are the only terminator armor equipped force in the game that doesn't lose their grenades when they put on their TDA) GW SEEMS to value a mastery level at approx 25 points, so given this and the other war gear advantages a Brother Captain has? I'd say they're costed about right.

BTW comparing the GK Lib to the Space Marine Lib. the GK Lib is indeed under costed. as a SM Lib with the equivilant wargear is 115 points. and the wargear of the SM Lib isn't QUITE as good. the SM Lib could proably be increased to 115-120 points and still be fairly costed

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 19:57:16


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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