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Quickjager wrote:
total did you not read that page?

He is stating that perhaps removing the AP3 weapon would justify the 4ppm decrease.

Also the ML is chapter tactics, MOVING ON!

Isn't ML too OP to be a Chapter Tactic? That's rather silly if you think that that is a fair comparison compared to others. Also, GKs are not vanilla SM so stop trying to make them vanilla as we all know that the GK community would bitch if they got rolled into C:SM just like Black Templars players did

What would you suggest be their equivalent to chapter tactics? ML1 and they ability to cast hammerhand which MIGHT go off seems fair.

It is very fair if you ask me.

The things that differentiate them are

-Stormbolters
-Ap3 melee
-ML1
-Aegis
-+1 Ld
-+7ppm difference from a Tac. Squad

As a whole they're a unit that walks a dangerous line balance wise...

The question we have to ask what is equivalent to a 50% price increase of a full vanilla squad.

Stormbolters are easily part of the point increase. As are the AP3.

ML1 and Aegis are equivalent to chapter tactics, in which the BT Chapter tactics AW is a improved version of.

SGTPozy wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
total did you not read that page?

He is stating that perhaps removing the AP3 weapon would justify the 4ppm decrease.

Also the ML is chapter tactics, MOVING ON!

Isn't ML too OP to be a Chapter Tactic? That's rather silly if you think that that is a fair comparison compared to others. Also, GKs are not vanilla SM so stop trying to make them vanilla as we all know that the GK community would bitch if they got rolled into C:SM just like Black Templars players did

Iron Hands get Feel No Pain (6+) for everyone and It Will Not Die for all Vehicles and Characters as their chapter tactic. That's far more powerful than Grey Knights being ML1 with Hammerhand.

Most people want Grey Knights to stand alone. But when comparing them to vanilla Marines, it's not fair to charge the Grey Knights for an army-wide upgrade when the Space Marines get rules that are just as good for free. That is why people are discussing what Grey Knight traits are actually their built-in Chapter Tactics.

You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

Perhaps you should read the thread in its entirety before making comments such as this.

Ap3 CC weapons are bunk on a unit thats not supposed to really get into CC, they're fairly fragile and dont have many attacks.

At least as far as Strike Squads are concerned

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

Being unhappy about being over-charged for upgrades that rarely impact a battle, is not the same thing as wanting to play another faction. Telling people who have spent years building and painting their army isn't helpful, and is actually fairly rude. I'd change armies if you're willing to buy my Grey Knight army for what it'd cost me to build another army to this size. I have 10,000+ points of Grey Knights.

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

These kind of posts really don't contribute to the topic. This isn't about wanting to play another army, it was a point made that Chapter Tactics can be fairly strong. I mean Blood Angels have two pretty strong rules (Red Thirst and the Descent of Angels rules). Yes the army has a number of other issues, but strong Chapter Traits aren't exactly something that has costed points for some time now.

ForeverARookie wrote:

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

Being unhappy about being over-charged for upgrades that rarely impact a battle, is not the same thing as wanting to play another faction. Telling people who have spent years building and painting their army isn't helpful, and is actually fairly rude. I'd change armies if you're willing to buy my Grey Knight army for what it'd cost me to build another army to this size. I have 10,000+ points of Grey Knights.

So you think that if you have to pay for something you don't like then you shouldn't have to pay? So if I'm playing Farsight Enclaves but don't want to pay for Bonding Knife Ritual (a completely pointless upgrade) for every unit then I don't have to? Good logic buddy, here's another ridiculous example: I want to play Orks using the Warband formation but don't want to include Grotz, then I don't have to because they don't do anything in the game?

They arent overcharging for the force weapons at all.


Every other army has to pay 25 points for ML1 and 15 points per power weapon.

Grey knights get both + storm bolters + reroll 1's on DTW for 7 points. Thats a friggin bargin no matter how you look at it.


I understand you would like the option to keep them cheaper. Its always nice to have options.

The issue here is that your already balanced around the fact that you cant take these guys cheaper. The army is built like this. All grey knights ARE armed to the teeth in the fluff and the army is designed around that point.

This game is not written about being balanced between codex's.


As far as powerlevel goes, Grey knights are acctually pretty decent.

Eihnlazer wrote:
They arent overcharging for the force weapons at all.

Every other army has to pay 25 points for ML1 and 15 points per power weapon.

Grey knights get both + storm bolters + reroll 1's on DTW for 7 points. Thats a friggin bargin no matter how you look at it.

I understand you would like the option to keep them cheaper. Its always nice to have options.

The issue here is that your already balanced around the fact that you cant take these guys cheaper. The army is built like this. All grey knights ARE armed to the teeth in the fluff and the army is designed around that point.

This game is not written about being balanced between codex's.

As far as powerlevel goes, Grey knights are acctually pretty decent.

The problem is that on all accounts these upgrades are over-costed. Other factions can afford to overpay for the upgrade they'll use, because that's all they're taking. Grey Knights are forced to overpay for all of the upgrades, most of which they won't use in most instances. If the prices for the upgrades were ballanced, the Grey Knights would still cost more points than the Space Marines, but they wouldn't be priced out of viability. The fact is PAGK don't perform well enough to be worth the points.

Eihnlazer wrote:
They arent overcharging for the force weapons at all.

Every other army has to pay 25 points for ML1 and 15 points per power weapon.

They also are getting them on superior models. Also, when looking at a Brotherhood of Psykers you should at least be splitting the points up between the models if you're trying to charge them for it (but GW didn't, again: Chapter Tactics cost nothing, and that's what it essentially is).

Also, most models that can buy Power Weapons also have two attacks, or more.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Grey knights get both + storm bolters + reroll 1's on DTW for 7 points. Thats a friggin bargin no matter how you look at it.

Storm Bolters are worth 2 points at most. Subtract the Bolt Pistol and they come out at a point, or less. I don't know why people keep trying to inflate them to levels they aren't worth.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The issue here is that your already balanced around the fact that you cant take these guys cheaper. The army is built like this. All grey knights ARE armed to the teeth in the fluff and the army is designed around that point.

Even so, the army could be changed. This is Proposed Rules and some of the ideas have included changing most of the weapons to no longer be Force Weapons (just keep any stat bonuses or rules on them, save for the Daemonhammer which should stay as a Thunderhammer equiv).

Eihnlazer wrote:
This game is not written about being balanced between codex's.

If you've been reading the thread you'd note that even excluding external balance the book has poor internal balance.

ForeverARookie wrote:
The problem is that on all accounts these upgrades are over-costed. Other factions can afford to overpay for the upgrade they'll use, because that's all they're taking. Grey Knights are forced to overpay for all of the upgrades, most of which they won't use in most instances.

The problem with that statement is that, even if those upgrades are overcosted, you're paying a mere fraction of what other races pay.

e.g. Power Weapons might well be overcosted at 15pts, but when you're paying 1-2pts for Force Weapons it seems a bit dubious to complain that you're overpaying.

Same goes for Mastery Level 1 - maybe 25pts is too much (not sure about that, but whatever) - but you're paying just 1/5 of that (maybe less). That's already a hell of a reduction.

EDIT: Actually, that's a fair point with regard to brotherhood of psykers being spread out over the unit. Possibly it would be better to decide on a cost for the mastery level and cost it to the sergeant (so that extra models added to the squad don't pay for the mastery level)?


On the subject of chapter tactics vs psychic mastery levels, the problem I have is that psychic mastery levels aren't limited to buffing the unit that has them. If they worked like they did in 5th edition, I'd have no problem with GK squads having Hammerhand in place of Chapter Tactics. In 7th though, if you don't want to cast Hammerhand, you can instead use that unit's psychic dice to further fuel a librarian (or any other psyker who's in a better position to make use of his powers). And, of course, each mastery level also helps you in your opponent's psychic phase. Maybe it's still balanced, but I think it's an important point to consider.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?

A CCW that ignores or penalizes Invul, most likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
They arent overcharging for the force weapons at all.


Every other army has to pay 25 points for ML1 and 15 points per power weapon.

Grey knights get both + storm bolters + reroll 1's on DTW for 7 points. Thats a friggin bargin no matter how you look at it.


I understand you would like the option to keep them cheaper. Its always nice to have options.

The issue here is that your already balanced around the fact that you cant take these guys cheaper. The army is built like this. All grey knights ARE armed to the teeth in the fluff and the army is designed around that point.

This game is not written about being balanced between codex's.


As far as powerlevel goes, Grey knights are acctually pretty decent.

Every other Space Marine army, perhaps.

First off, a Mastery Level on a character gets you a range of more useable powers; ML1 for Hammerhand on Purgators is infinitely weaker than ML1 for Precognition on an Inquisitor. That said giving the GK ML1 and rolling on Divination would be between 5 and 2.5ppm based on squad size.

Secondly, at 15pts/power weapon on regular infantry with one base Attack I could get a Bloodletter with a normal CCW at -5pts. A bargain, I take infinite Bloodletter and I have the points for infinite FMCs. Woo. (Statline-wise the Hellblade is about 5pts of the Bloodletter's cost, if that) The Space Marine armoury pricing for certain items that hasn't changed in four editions isn't a good benchmark for the true value of an item (unless you're about to try and convince me Vanguard Veterans are useable because of all the gear they have access to); force weapons across the board for units with one Attack (two charging) and no way to get more, MEQ bodies, and no inherent mobility beyond walking are absolutely not worth as much as power weapons on a model with four Attacks base, four Wounds, a 4+ Inv, and access to bikes and storm shields.

Thirdly, trying to argue the GK are balanced because inter-Codex balance doesn't matter is a contradiction. If inter-Codex balance doesn't matter we're wasting our time here, but we're not, because inter-Codex balance is the core of every problem that frustrates every 40k player I have ever talked to in person or online, and since inter-Codex balance matters the GK are not balanced, they're underpowered and very short on options. What are you comparing the GK to when you estimate they're "pretty decent" if inter-Codex balance doesn't matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

Being unhappy about being over-charged for upgrades that rarely impact a battle, is not the same thing as wanting to play another faction. Telling people who have spent years building and painting their army isn't helpful, and is actually fairly rude. I'd change armies if you're willing to buy my Grey Knight army for what it'd cost me to build another army to this size. I have 10,000+ points of Grey Knights.

So you think that if you have to pay for something you don't like then you shouldn't have to pay? So if I'm playing Farsight Enclaves but don't want to pay for Bonding Knife Ritual (a completely pointless upgrade) for every unit then I don't have to? Good logic buddy, here's another ridiculous example: I want to play Orks using the Warband formation but don't want to include Grotz, then I don't have to because they don't do anything in the game?

You have the option to play Tau without paying for the Farsight Enclaves tax to get Crisis Suits as Troops. You have the option to play Orks without playing the Warband formation. You don't have the option to play Purgators without paying for Force Weapons and Hammerhand.

The problem is that the tax is there to play the Codex at all, as opposed to having the tax to do wacky things with a preexisting army.

"Every other space marine" is a silly claim considering only marines and demons even HAVE variable mastery levels.
(and demons also pay 25 points per level)

ForeverARookie wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
total did you not read that page?

He is stating that perhaps removing the AP3 weapon would justify the 4ppm decrease.

Also the ML is chapter tactics, MOVING ON!

Isn't ML too OP to be a Chapter Tactic? That's rather silly if you think that that is a fair comparison compared to others. Also, GKs are not vanilla SM so stop trying to make them vanilla as we all know that the GK community would bitch if they got rolled into C:SM just like Black Templars players did

Iron Hands get Feel No Pain (6+) for everyone and It Will Not Die for all Vehicles and Characters as their chapter tactic. That's far more powerful than Grey Knights being ML1 with Hammerhand.

Most people want Grey Knights to stand alone. But when comparing them to vanilla Marines, it's not fair to charge the Grey Knights for an army-wide upgrade when the Space Marines get rules that are just as good for free. That is why people are discussing what Grey Knight traits are actually their built-in Chapter Tactics.

So the mastery level is chapter tactics, and deepstike PoS, the aegis, PE:demons and psykouts are free, while force weapons and storm bolters are 6 points? that's your price reasoning?

Because ML alone is better than most tactics (and you know it), and deepstike, PoS, PE and aegis on top of that is just absurd for "chapter tactics"
There is no way to claim that they pay too much, or that they don't get enough bonuses for the price increase. because they pay a fraction of what anyone else pays for the same weapon and the same rule stockpile, one might say they get a "stockpile discount" there.
And yes, what others pay is too much to be worth it on large scale, but knights don't even pay a third.
The "they are force to have too many toys" is a more logical claim, but once you have marines without the toys-why are you GK again?

No, its not the same weapon.

Its only a dude with 1 attack. 1 attack. 1 ATTACK!!!

And causing Instant Death doesn't matter 90% of the time. So its largely worthless. When something so situational gets spammed, the cost needs to be dropped. its not dropped enough.

Its together barely worth more than 3 points a guy.

Stormbolter vs bolter and bolt pistol is a wash due to not getting the 2nd attack from the pistol.


ML1 with only HH and Force plus the AP3 force weapon is worth no more than 3 points over a normal marine because you only have 1 attack ever.

Other models pay 15-25 points for Mastery levels and force weapons because they are on models with multiple attacks and access to rolling for their powers. Not only having 1 specific power. Those models also get a choice of force weapon. GKSS are stuck with swords unless they want to pay extra. and the only AP2 option is 10 points on top of their base cost(and still only 1 attack)

Bring back the True Grit rule!

That might make them worth 20 pts a pop. But terminators would still be better for only 13 pts more.

Why do you guyz want to add just buffs to make gk 'ballanced'? That's some eldar-style fanboy approach noone really likes.

Nerf Draigo, Librarians, Dreadknights. Buff Crowe and Dreads. Allow some amount of meltas and plasmas. Everything else is fine.

 koooaei wrote:
Why do you guyz want to add just buffs to make gk 'ballanced'? That's some eldar-style fanboy approach noone really likes.

Nerf Draigo, Librarians, Dreadknights. Buff Crowe and Dreads. Allow some amount of meltas and plasmas. Everything else is fine.

So basically the old codex with access to plasma and melta?

Quickjager wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why do you guyz want to add just buffs to make gk 'ballanced'? That's some eldar-style fanboy approach noone really likes.

Nerf Draigo, Librarians, Dreadknights. Buff Crowe and Dreads. Allow some amount of meltas and plasmas. Everything else is fine.

So basically the old codex with access to plasma and melta?

Hey, you wanted ballance, didn't you? No new models, so...

As it is now, pagk are more fairly priced for their capabilities. Termies are even more appealing. Mass deepstrike turn 1. And batreps show that gk work! They compete with other fairly ballanced armies. In some cases they even crush eldar. What's not to like?

I understand the complaints about psycannons but that's just how stuff's supposed to be. Gravgunz and sonic blasters don't have 2 profiles. Just shift to what's working for your pa guyz now - incinerators.

Dreadknights are too cheap for what they do, dreadnoughts are a bit too expensive and out of place. Draigo gate of infinity is fair within the context of just gk. But when you take dev cents it's becoming an even more broken annoying deathstar.

Grey Templar-nobody pays 15 points per ML, everyone who CAN buy them, buys them at 25 a piece, the number 15 probably came out of my OWN tossup, when I stated the approximate value of power-limited mastery level. (also note, 25 points is per level ABOVE the first, yet the first level is the most important one, and worth much more than the rest.)

The fact you consider the force swords to be worth 3 points is insulting. if I could grab force swords to even my firewarriors at that price, I would have done it.
Situational? yes. but that one time it comes into play? gamechanger.
That's the very same reason I actually DO buy EMP grenades. I almost never get to use them, but when I do they are worth all the collective games where I didn't.

Alright lets go the opposite direction here

Codex: Grey Knights/Movie Marines

SS are now 550 points for 5
3+ Armor save
4+ Inv save
2 wounds (Justicar has 3)
Initiative 8
Strength 8
Toughness 4
BS7
WS7
3 attacks with Monster Hunter and Rending
Split Fire, optional Skyfire, 2 range attacks per turn
12 inch move, can run and shoot

Termies are now 1100 points for 5
2+ Armor Save
3+ Inv Save
3 Wounds (Justicar has 4)
Initiative 6
Strength 10
Toughness 6
BS7
WS7
4 attacks with Monster Hunter and Rending
Split Fire, optional Skyfire, 2 range attacks per turn
6 Inch move, can run and shoot

Equipment
Force [BLANK] - AP 3
Force Hammer - AP 2, attacks at I2
Stormbolter - AP4, assault 4
Psycannon - Roll 1D6 on a roll of 6 remove a model, 4+ wounds/remove hull point, Heavy 8 - 1 per 5 model in unit
Psylincer - Ignores Invulnerable saves, Str 5 AP5, Heavy 10, Force special rule.

Dreadknight is now Apoc only unit
--RULES FORTHCOMING--

Draigo
No longer may be taken in a game, however when opponent is using summoning from Demonology and perils, Draigo enters game.
Initiative 10
Strength D
Toughness 8
2+ Invul
BS10
WS10
8 attacks
Titansword - AP2
Split Fire, optional Skyfire, 2 range attacks per turn
6 Inch move, can run and shoot
12 inch Assault

Armywide special rules
LD12
May cast any spell from Sanctic, but ONLY sanctic, may perils still.
Grey Knights must always kill all allies and enemies before end of game otherwise only draw is achieved.

Of course, an alternative change might be to make assault not be a joke compared to shooting. If melee becomes more viable, the value of having Force Swords on everyone goes up. It'd also have the side-effect of improving life for some other armies who could use it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Of course, an alternative change might be to make assault not be a joke compared to shooting. If melee becomes more viable, the value of having Force Swords on everyone goes up. It'd also have the side-effect of improving life for some other armies who could use it.

Very true. They'd still be less viable than a true assault oriented army, but for generalists they'd be less bad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
@AnomanderRake: Perhaps swap out Force Weapons for something that is anti-Daemons specifically? Like a CCW with a Daemonbane rule or some kind?

A CCW that ignores or penalizes Invul, most likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
They arent overcharging for the force weapons at all.


Every other army has to pay 25 points for ML1 and 15 points per power weapon.

Grey knights get both + storm bolters + reroll 1's on DTW for 7 points. Thats a friggin bargin no matter how you look at it.


I understand you would like the option to keep them cheaper. Its always nice to have options.

The issue here is that your already balanced around the fact that you cant take these guys cheaper. The army is built like this. All grey knights ARE armed to the teeth in the fluff and the army is designed around that point.

This game is not written about being balanced between codex's.


As far as powerlevel goes, Grey knights are acctually pretty decent.

Every other Space Marine army, perhaps.

First off, a Mastery Level on a character gets you a range of more useable powers; ML1 for Hammerhand on Purgators is infinitely weaker than ML1 for Precognition on an Inquisitor. That said giving the GK ML1 and rolling on Divination would be between 5 and 2.5ppm based on squad size.

Secondly, at 15pts/power weapon on regular infantry with one base Attack I could get a Bloodletter with a normal CCW at -5pts. A bargain, I take infinite Bloodletter and I have the points for infinite FMCs. Woo. (Statline-wise the Hellblade is about 5pts of the Bloodletter's cost, if that) The Space Marine armoury pricing for certain items that hasn't changed in four editions isn't a good benchmark for the true value of an item (unless you're about to try and convince me Vanguard Veterans are useable because of all the gear they have access to); force weapons across the board for units with one Attack (two charging) and no way to get more, MEQ bodies, and no inherent mobility beyond walking are absolutely not worth as much as power weapons on a model with four Attacks base, four Wounds, a 4+ Inv, and access to bikes and storm shields.

Thirdly, trying to argue the GK are balanced because inter-Codex balance doesn't matter is a contradiction. If inter-Codex balance doesn't matter we're wasting our time here, but we're not, because inter-Codex balance is the core of every problem that frustrates every 40k player I have ever talked to in person or online, and since inter-Codex balance matters the GK are not balanced, they're underpowered and very short on options. What are you comparing the GK to when you estimate they're "pretty decent" if inter-Codex balance doesn't matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

total0 wrote:
You like what vanilla marines have? Go play them then, the rules have been made to the same level as other 7th dex's. If you dont like the army then dont play them its simple really. You're playing a specialist army, you dont see dark angel players complaining they dont have chapter tactics or what ever (and for the record I'd understand their upset more than cheap for the points psykers with ap3 cc across the board)

Being unhappy about being over-charged for upgrades that rarely impact a battle, is not the same thing as wanting to play another faction. Telling people who have spent years building and painting their army isn't helpful, and is actually fairly rude. I'd change armies if you're willing to buy my Grey Knight army for what it'd cost me to build another army to this size. I have 10,000+ points of Grey Knights.

So you think that if you have to pay for something you don't like then you shouldn't have to pay? So if I'm playing Farsight Enclaves but don't want to pay for Bonding Knife Ritual (a completely pointless upgrade) for every unit then I don't have to? Good logic buddy, here's another ridiculous example: I want to play Orks using the Warband formation but don't want to include Grotz, then I don't have to because they don't do anything in the game?

You have the option to play Tau without paying for the Farsight Enclaves tax to get Crisis Suits as Troops. You have the option to play Orks without playing the Warband formation. You don't have the option to play Purgators without paying for Force Weapons and Hammerhand.

The problem is that the tax is there to play the Codex at all, as opposed to having the tax to do wacky things with a preexisting army.

You have the option of stripping down your guys though, its called Codex Space Marines! They are cheaper than yours so use them if you want cheaper marines. I know you'll be all like "But I wanna use my army," so my response is that buying an extra codex is the same cost as a supplement so go do that and stop complaining about the tiny little details. You are the most elite chapter, you are not supposed to have high model count and the DK is broken anyway, you're a noob if you spam it

SGTPozy wrote:
You have the option of stripping down your guys though, its called Codex Space Marines! They are cheaper than yours so use them if you want cheaper marines. I know you'll be all like "But I wanna use my army," so my response is that buying an extra codex is the same cost as a supplement so go do that and stop complaining about the tiny little details. You are the most elite chapter, you are not supposed to have high model count and the DK is broken anyway, you're a noob if you spam it

This is "Proposed Rules" not "What Army Should I Play?". Please kindly stop telling people to play a different army already. It is not constructive or actually useful, it's just rude and childish.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You have the option of stripping down your guys though, its called Codex Space Marines! They are cheaper than yours so use them if you want cheaper marines. I know you'll be all like "But I wanna use my army," so my response is that buying an extra codex is the same cost as a supplement so go do that and stop complaining about the tiny little details. You are the most elite chapter, you are not supposed to have high model count and the DK is broken anyway, you're a noob if you spam it

This is "Proposed Rules" not "What Army Should I Play?". Please kindly stop telling people to play a different army already. It is not constructive or actually useful, it's just rude and childish.

On the other hand, if you want proposed changes/new ideas to be taken seriously, then they can't simply be a list of, "GK's aren't what *I* want, they should also gain X/Y/Z because... 'reasons'"

Most of the suggestions in this thread however simply read as a bunch of entitled GK players wanting to go back to the 5th ed book of essentially being "Codex: One-Upmanship"
Non-GK players are going to scoff at the idea of already elite, well rounded models further gaining perks like Infiltrate, Ignores Cover, pts decreases, melta/plasma options, etc... because the new codex has proven very capable thus far.

The reasons being suggested are completely reasonable.

Its you who is coming in here and saying "Yur ideas are stewpid! Yur just whiny GK players missing your OP codex!"

GKSS were overpriced in 5th edition and they are even more overpriced now that Psycannons on non-relentless platforms are really bad.


We not suggesting Strike Squads get all of these things, but they need something more than what they have and/or a price drop.

I'd be ok with 20 pt GKSS if they were actually worth 20 pts. As it is, they're only worth about 17-18 pts each.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Non-GK players are going to scoff at the idea of already elite, well rounded models further gaining perks like Infiltrate, Ignores Cover, pts decreases, melta/plasma options, etc... because the new codex has proven very capable thus far.

When playing with the units we're not talking about, yes. You'll note that no one wants Terminators or Librarians to get better than they already are.

I honestly think the problem with strike squads isn't their cost so much as their capabilities.
right now they're just a "cheaper alternative to GK termies" but with GKs being what they are, they're still not cheap so... why take em over GKTs? a strike squad, in the fluff is described as a vanguard unit, often the first into a location to grab a important location and hold it until reinforcements arrive etc.

thing is, on the table top, everything they can do in that regard GKTs can do better. So what rules can be changed on a GKSS to make them a little more useful and fit their fluff better.

giving them infiltrate certinly comes to mind. However I agree that infiltrate for free is a bit much,

So here's my proposal for a GKSS. Reduce the base points by 5 or 10 or so and REMOVE deep strike.

The add a list of upgrade options you can add onto a GKSS, including deep strike for the cost in points you've judged it worth.

Also give it the ability to buy the infiltrate upgrade. This means GKSS's have the option to deep strike in like they always have and smash stuff up, but they also can be deployed in advance with infiltrate, (and no doubt teleport homers) it'd add a unique and intreasting option to a GKSS.

Another idea is to give GKSS's a special rule that improves their deep strike. perhaps "add +1 to deep strike rolls for this unit"


I'm not saying a strike squad should nesscarily be better but IMHO right now it really needs to have a niche created for it. Take Space Marine scouts. yes they're a cheaper unit with inferior armor, but they DO have a specific niche over tatical squads as well