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BrianDavion wrote:
So here's my proposal for a GKSS. Reduce the base points by 5 or 10 or so and REMOVE deep strike.

Really?

You think that if you remove deep strike it's reasonable for them to cost 10pts per model?

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So here's my proposal for a GKSS. Reduce the base points by 5 or 10 or so and REMOVE deep strike.

Really?

You think that if you remove deep strike it's reasonable for them to cost 10pts per model?

Reducing the squad cost by 10 points is not the same as reducing each model's cost by 10 points.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So here's my proposal for a GKSS. Reduce the base points by 5 or 10 or so and REMOVE deep strike.

Really?

You think that if you remove deep strike it's reasonable for them to cost 10pts per model?

Reducing the squad cost by 10 points is not the same as reducing each model's cost by 10 points.

Ah, I see.

Ok, that's more reasonable.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You have the option of stripping down your guys though, its called Codex Space Marines! They are cheaper than yours so use them if you want cheaper marines. I know you'll be all like "But I wanna use my army," so my response is that buying an extra codex is the same cost as a supplement so go do that and stop complaining about the tiny little details. You are the most elite chapter, you are not supposed to have high model count and the DK is broken anyway, you're a noob if you spam it

This is "Proposed Rules" not "What Army Should I Play?". Please kindly stop telling people to play a different army already. It is not constructive or actually useful, it's just rude and childish.

On the other hand, if you want proposed changes/new ideas to be taken seriously, then they can't simply be a list of, "GK's aren't what *I* want, they should also gain X/Y/Z because... 'reasons'"

Most of the suggestions in this thread however simply read as a bunch of entitled GK players wanting to go back to the 5th ed book of essentially being "Codex: One-Upmanship"
Non-GK players are going to scoff at the idea of already elite, well rounded models further gaining perks like Infiltrate, Ignores Cover, pts decreases, melta/plasma options, etc... because the new codex has proven very capable thus far.

You do know like half of us posting aren't GK players, right? I own Sisters and Wolves for example.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
You have the option of stripping down your guys though, its called Codex Space Marines! They are cheaper than yours so use them if you want cheaper marines. I know you'll be all like "But I wanna use my army," so my response is that buying an extra codex is the same cost as a supplement so go do that and stop complaining about the tiny little details. You are the most elite chapter, you are not supposed to have high model count and the DK is broken anyway, you're a noob if you spam it

This is "Proposed Rules" not "What Army Should I Play?". Please kindly stop telling people to play a different army already. It is not constructive or actually useful, it's just rude and childish.

On the other hand, if you want proposed changes/new ideas to be taken seriously, then they can't simply be a list of, "GK's aren't what *I* want, they should also gain X/Y/Z because... 'reasons'"

Most of the suggestions in this thread however simply read as a bunch of entitled GK players wanting to go back to the 5th ed book of essentially being "Codex: One-Upmanship"
Non-GK players are going to scoff at the idea of already elite, well rounded models further gaining perks like Infiltrate, Ignores Cover, pts decreases, melta/plasma options, etc... because the new codex has proven very capable thus far.

You do know like half of us posting aren't GK players, right? I own Sisters and Wolves for example.

I was a GK player, but I sold off the army after two straight books of taking away all the stuff I liked about the 3e Codex. I'm not here to whine that the new book isn't as powerful as the 5e book was, I'm here to whine that all the interesting characterful choices keep getting dropped in favour of making the GK into a glorified mini-'Dex that can't stand on its own.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I was a GK player, but I sold off the army after two straight books of taking away all the stuff I liked about the 3e Codex. I'm not here to whine that the new book isn't as powerful as the 5e book was, I'm here to whine that all the interesting characterful choices keep getting dropped in favour of making the GK into a glorified mini-'Dex that can't stand on its own.

You deserve a high five, because that's exactly why I bitch about the Sisters codex: the loss of flavor for a watered down mess.

I miss the 3e codex. Sure it sucked, but I love the idea of grey knights acting more like the elite bodyguards of an inquisitor rather than just another space marine chapter. I was so happy to inquisition taken out of grey knights because Xenos and hereticus being included in Codex: Grey Knights was soooo awkward. But now that Grey knights is just grey knights and not ordo malleus, it's just bland.

On the subject of chapter tactics, I'd say preferred enemy daemons and access to Sanctic without penalty are probably your version of them. Remember chapter tactics aren't necessarily huge rules. All my DAs have to show for it is stubborn and that's fine. We have other stuff that makes us unique even if it does come at a price, so let's not get too greedy when it comes to free special rules. All the other stuff should factor into the cost of the unit. How much the rest is really worth is obviously a touchy subject, so I won't comment further on that.

As for force weapons not coming into play that much. Make it come into play. Go after models with fnp and multiple wounds. Find ways to make those points matter. Don't wait for opportunities, make them.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
I miss the 3e codex. Sure it sucked, but I love the idea of grey knights acting more like the elite bodyguards of an inquisitor rather than just another space marine chapter. I was so happy to inquisition taken out of grey knights because Xenos and hereticus being included in Codex: Grey Knights was soooo awkward. But now that Grey knights is just grey knights and not ordo malleus, it's just bland.

On the subject of chapter tactics, I'd say preferred enemy daemons and access to Sanctic without penalty are probably your version of them. Remember chapter tactics aren't necessarily huge rules. All my DAs have to show for it is stubborn and that's fine. We have other stuff that makes us unique even if it does come at a price, so let's not get too greedy when it comes to free special rules. All the other stuff should factor into the cost of the unit. How much the rest is really worth is obviously a touchy subject, so I won't comment further on that.

As for force weapons not coming into play that much. Make it come into play. Go after models with fnp and multiple wounds. Find ways to make those points matter. Don't wait for opportunities, make them.

You cannot make stuff come into play if your opponent is all 1 wound models. Also DA has already been agreed by most people to have been shafted in regards to their chapter tactics. If we're gonna be regulated to re-rolls on 1's as our chapter tactics and our equivalent to our own psyker stuff which space wolfs get their own for free (as well as blood angels), then were already doing piss poor.

With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

If you somehow manage to charge a Riptide with a Strike Squad, it'll slowly murder you while your attacks bounce off of T6 and 2+ armour. If you somehow manage to get in combat with a Wraithknight you can't even wound it, if you manage to get in combat with a Flyrant the Nid player is doing something wrong, and if you get in combat with a Greater Daemon chances are you're not going to swing anyway. That leaves the walking 'Nid MCs. Whoop-dee-doo.

Did I miss any MCs that are commonly taken?

And this still all is revolving around the idea we get force off, which while not hard, can still be denied or periled on.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

If you somehow manage to charge a Riptide with a Strike Squad, it'll slowly murder you while your attacks bounce off of T6 and 2+ armour. If you somehow manage to get in combat with a Wraithknight you can't even wound it, if you manage to get in combat with a Flyrant the Nid player is doing something wrong, and if you get in combat with a Greater Daemon chances are you're not going to swing anyway. That leaves the walking 'Nid MCs. Whoop-dee-doo.

Did I miss any MCs that are commonly taken?

Halbreds give a bonus to S and Hammerhand can gives another bonus so killing a Riptide through wounds (especially since it's WS still stinks) isn't impossible. Though realistically Falchions and Hammerhand would likely work better to get extra wounds in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
And this still all is revolving around the idea we get force off, which while not hard, can still be denied or periled on.

Very true. About the only "safe" way to cast Force is on a single die, but then you have a high chance of failing or being denied.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

If you somehow manage to charge a Riptide with a Strike Squad, it'll slowly murder you while your attacks bounce off of T6 and 2+ armour. If you somehow manage to get in combat with a Wraithknight you can't even wound it, if you manage to get in combat with a Flyrant the Nid player is doing something wrong, and if you get in combat with a Greater Daemon chances are you're not going to swing anyway. That leaves the walking 'Nid MCs. Whoop-dee-doo.

Did I miss any MCs that are commonly taken?

Halbreds give a bonus to S and Hammerhand can gives another bonus so killing a Riptide through wounds (especially since it's WS still stinks) isn't impossible. Though realistically Falchions and Hammerhand would likely work better to get extra wounds in.

In which case it's not your Force Weapons doing the work, and if you've bought Halberds for Strike Squads you're doing it wrong (IMO).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

If you somehow manage to charge a Riptide with a Strike Squad, it'll slowly murder you while your attacks bounce off of T6 and 2+ armour. If you somehow manage to get in combat with a Wraithknight you can't even wound it, if you manage to get in combat with a Flyrant the Nid player is doing something wrong, and if you get in combat with a Greater Daemon chances are you're not going to swing anyway. That leaves the walking 'Nid MCs. Whoop-dee-doo.

Did I miss any MCs that are commonly taken?

Halbreds give a bonus to S and Hammerhand can gives another bonus so killing a Riptide through wounds (especially since it's WS still stinks) isn't impossible. Though realistically Falchions and Hammerhand would likely work better to get extra wounds in.

In which case it's not your Force Weapons doing the work, and if you've bought Halberds for Strike Squads you're doing it wrong (IMO).

Yeeep putting special weapons on Strike squad is pretty pointless, 1A makes it hard to justify, whereas Purifiers get 2, hell its even more justified on Interceptors than SS because that unit is more likely to reach the enemy and be ready to charge them next turn.

So I guess we reached full circle with that post. upgrading a already cost-inefficient unit won't make it better especially if it can't use those upgrades.

When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

SGTPozy wrote:
When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

Not to be rude, but that's really stupid logic. That's like saying that you should never want to take Scouts because PA Marines are the focus of the army's fluff. No, PAGK should be just as viable as the TGK so that way players can make sound and personalized choices with their collections and armies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

Not to be rude, but that's really stupid logic. That's like saying that you should never want to take Scouts because PA Marines are the focus of the army's fluff. No, PAGK should be just as viable as the TGK so that way players can make sound and personalized choices with their collections and armies.

Answer me this then, if the majority of a GK force in the fluff are Terminators, then why should Strike squads be just as good when they are only vanguards? Since when are vanguards as good as the bulk of an army, they are the scouts (just like SM scouts are the SM) but are they as viable? No. No one is stopping you from personalising your army, if you like PAGK then use them, just because they aren't as competitive as Terminators doesn't mean you can't use them.

SGTPozy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

Not to be rude, but that's really stupid logic. That's like saying that you should never want to take Scouts because PA Marines are the focus of the army's fluff. No, PAGK should be just as viable as the TGK so that way players can make sound and personalized choices with their collections and armies.

Answer me this then, if the majority of a GK force in the fluff are Terminators, then why should Strike squads be just as good when they are only vanguards? Since when are vanguards as good as the bulk of an army, they are the scouts (just like SM scouts are the SM) but are they as viable? No. No one is stopping you from personalising your army, if you like PAGK then use them, just because they aren't as competitive as Terminators doesn't mean you can't use them.

The Vanguard is usually more veteran or elite troops, as they are the ones who will have to keep the enemy busy while the bulk of the army moves into position.

Further, there's no fluff as far as I'm aware that says the majority of the Chapter's in Terminator Armour. They have a lot of it, sure, but that's not the same as a majority.

Finally, you're missing the point: there are some things that Space Marine Scouts do better than Tactical Marines, which means they're viable. There's precious few things that a Strike Squad is better at (by enough of a margin) than a Terminator.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

Not to be rude, but that's really stupid logic. That's like saying that you should never want to take Scouts because PA Marines are the focus of the army's fluff. No, PAGK should be just as viable as the TGK so that way players can make sound and personalized choices with their collections and armies.

Answer me this then, if the majority of a GK force in the fluff are Terminators, then why should Strike squads be just as good when they are only vanguards? Since when are vanguards as good as the bulk of an army, they are the scouts (just like SM scouts are the SM) but are they as viable? No. No one is stopping you from personalising your army, if you like PAGK then use them, just because they aren't as competitive as Terminators doesn't mean you can't use them.

The Vanguard is usually more veteran or elite troops, as they are the ones who will have to keep the enemy busy while the bulk of the army moves into position.

Further, there's no fluff as far as I'm aware that says the majority of the Chapter's in Terminator Armour. They have a lot of it, sure, but that's not the same as a majority.

Finally, you're missing the point: there are some things that Space Marine Scouts do better than Tactical Marines, which means they're viable. There's precious few things that a Strike Squad is better at (by enough of a margin) than a Terminator.

Exactly they 'keep the enemy busy' until the main force comes which will do the killing, if vanguards are the deadliest, then why would they need Terminators? E.g. in real life, light armoured horsemen would have been the vanguard and the main force would be foot soldiers, heavier cavalry etc.

For fluff, look towards the older Imperial Armour books which include GK eg Siege of Vracks part 3, where basically only Terminator armour was used.

You're missing the point! You are not playing Space Marines and not every unit has to be a go-to powerhouse of a unit, if you like them, use them! If you only use units that are the most efficient the of course your lists will be bland and boring, grow up and play your army or quit it!

SGTPozy wrote:


You're missing the point! You are not playing Space Marines and not every unit has to be a go-to powerhouse of a unit, if you like them, use them! If you only use units that are the most efficient the of course your lists will be bland and boring, grow up and play your army or quit it!

So if your army turned into nothing but Dreadknights as Troops and Grots it'd be fine, because not all units are meant to be equally good? Are you for real?

SGTPozy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
When you think of Grey Knights, what unit do you think of? Terminators! Therefore terminators should be the auto take compared to PAGK which look awful and deserve to be awful. They are and should be GK's equivalent to SM scouts; only better in certain situations.

Not to be rude, but that's really stupid logic. That's like saying that you should never want to take Scouts because PA Marines are the focus of the army's fluff. No, PAGK should be just as viable as the TGK so that way players can make sound and personalized choices with their collections and armies.

Answer me this then, if the majority of a GK force in the fluff are Terminators, then why should Strike squads be just as good when they are only vanguards? Since when are vanguards as good as the bulk of an army, they are the scouts (just like SM scouts are the SM) but are they as viable? No. No one is stopping you from personalising your army, if you like PAGK then use them, just because they aren't as competitive as Terminators doesn't mean you can't use them.

The Vanguard is usually more veteran or elite troops, as they are the ones who will have to keep the enemy busy while the bulk of the army moves into position.

Further, there's no fluff as far as I'm aware that says the majority of the Chapter's in Terminator Armour. They have a lot of it, sure, but that's not the same as a majority.

Finally, you're missing the point: there are some things that Space Marine Scouts do better than Tactical Marines, which means they're viable. There's precious few things that a Strike Squad is better at (by enough of a margin) than a Terminator.

Exactly they 'keep the enemy busy' until the main force comes which will do the killing, if vanguards are the deadliest, then why would they need Terminators? E.g. in real life, light armoured horsemen would have been the vanguard and the main force would be foot soldiers, heavier cavalry etc.

For fluff, look towards the older Imperial Armour books which include GK eg Siege of Vracks part 3, where basically only Terminator armour was used.

You're missing the point! You are not playing Space Marines and not every unit has to be a go-to powerhouse of a unit, if you like them, use them! If you only use units that are the most efficient the of course your lists will be bland and boring, grow up and play your army or quit it!

The problem isn't that Strike Squads aren't a go-to powerhouse, the problem is that they're Terminators, only worse.

An army book in which there is one "most efficient" army build that uses the same models and plays the same game every time you put them on the field is a bad army book. The technical term is "poor internal balance"; there's an "I win" unit, and everything else is a waste of space. The ideal Codex plays differently depending on what units you take, it doesn't play identically whatever units you take and win with some/lose with others.

So basically speaking, the problem is that terminators are troops and therefor makes strike squads look bad in comparison because they are even better.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So basically speaking, the problem is that terminators are troops and therefor makes strike squads look bad in comparison because they are even better.

Nope. The problem is that the GK book has one unit with six names plus a few vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's nothing inherently wrong with Strike squads and Terminators both in Troops, but if they do the exact same thing but one does it slightly better than the other the worse unit is a waste of space and time. The entire purpose of this thread is to try and work around that.

However termies are NOT strictly better than the strikes. only generally so.
They ARE more durable per point, but they have a lesser damage output per point, or psychic generation power per point.
Ad that means that when you are trying for an alpha, strikes might be the better choice by sheer point efficiency on the initial drop (as long you dont need a heavy special weapon and mobility at the same time)
Plus, sometimes you just need to have a cheaper option because your points are needed elsewhere.

Its perfectly fine that the termies are USUALLY better. one option has to be by definition, but the strikes have their cases pop up from time to time. if you need to hit hard on alphas, or need to generate alot of warp charges, the strikes pop up as a contester to the troop selection.

Its just like how SM scouts are technically inferior, but are better for some specific jobs. (or a themed army I supposed...)

 BoomWolf wrote:
However termies are NOT strictly better than the strikes. only generally so.
They ARE more durable per point, but they have a lesser damage output per point, or psychic generation power per point.
Ad that means that when you are trying for an alpha, strikes might be the better choice by sheer point efficiency on the initial drop (as long you dont need a heavy special weapon and mobility at the same time)
Plus, sometimes you just need to have a cheaper option because your points are needed elsewhere.

Its perfectly fine that the termies are USUALLY better. one option has to be by definition, but the strikes have their cases pop up from time to time. if you need to hit hard on alphas, or need to generate alot of warp charges, the strikes pop up as a contester to the troop selection.

Its just like how SM scouts are technically inferior, but are better for some specific jobs. (or a themed army I supposed...)

It's just soooo hard to justify them beyond, "well I guess I can toss these 55 points on my Dreadknight instead"; the more I think about it, the more I realize why Purifiers will never have deepstrike. Because they do everything SS do but BETTER. Otherwise if Psycannon was still assault we would be seeing Purifier spam with SW drop-pods everywhere.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
With monstrous creatures being part of the meta right now I highly doubt you'll be hard pressed to find an army with multiple wounds or fnp.

If you somehow manage to charge a Riptide with a Strike Squad, it'll slowly murder you while your attacks bounce off of T6 and 2+ armour. If you somehow manage to get in combat with a Wraithknight you can't even wound it, if you manage to get in combat with a Flyrant the Nid player is doing something wrong, and if you get in combat with a Greater Daemon chances are you're not going to swing anyway. That leaves the walking 'Nid MCs. Whoop-dee-doo.

Did I miss any MCs that are commonly taken?

Halbreds give a bonus to S and Hammerhand can gives another bonus so killing a Riptide through wounds (especially since it's WS still stinks) isn't impossible. Though realistically Falchions and Hammerhand would likely work better to get extra wounds in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
And this still all is revolving around the idea we get force off, which while not hard, can still be denied or periled on.

Very true. About the only "safe" way to cast Force is on a single die, but then you have a high chance of failing or being denied.

Only guaranteed way is to be near to or in a unit with an IC with the Glaive relic.

Weird to compare SS to terminators or purifiers.

SS to termies-

base squad size of SS lets you get a special weapon.

You can get 10 SS members, and 2 special weapons which can be divided into two combat squads giving you 2 WC for the cost of 1 5 man termie squad with a special weapon and 1 WC.

obviously one is more durable with termi armor and the other has PA but more special weapons and more psyker mojo for the same points. So they fulfill different roles.

The arguement that force weapons are bad is really strange, as essentially they are power swords that also let you potentially have ID which is regardless of models toughness. Almost any army you play against will have at least 1 mutli wound model, so despite the fact the weapons already ignore most armor in the game, almost everyone in the GK army has the power to ignore a models wound profile in assault unless they have EW. Hardly something to moan over. Oh and ID negates FnP which a lot of models do have even if they are only 1 wound...

yeah if you get them in assault with a riptide you might be in trouble, unless you cast hammerhand or use the krak grenades they come with. Considering an average riptide costs as much as 10 PAGK and one is an elite unit, and the other is the standard infantry of another fighting force what do you expect? I don't see people complaining that their tac squad is getting pasted by NDK, obviously IMBA, or omg a wraithknight is pasting my IG platoon, obviously IG platoon should be buffed. Throw your rocks at their scissors, not your paper.

Look at a SS model, it has a stormbolter, which is normally a 5 pt upgrade, and a nemesis force sword, considering a Power sword(which is worse) is normally a 15pt upgrade those two items alone mean the rest of the models rules/stats/gear are worth 0 points.

The point of the strike squads is that they

At the onset of battle, a Grey Knights commander will invariably task one or more Strike Squads with the capture of vital locations and key objectives, deploying them via fixed teleporter to ensure a swift seizure of isolated or inaccessible locations.

removing DS is completely counter to this and makes no sense.

and as to the comments on flyers/FMC I hear cleansing flame works great since it auto hits both from the rules for novas.

It's not that Force Weapons are bad in general, it's that Force Weapons on basically Tact Marines are bad.

I disagree. If a tac marine is 14 points, gaining deepstrike, a stormbolter, wc for the unit, psychic powers, psykout grenades, preferred enemy daemons, aegis, and a ap3 forcesword for 4 pts over the cost of a tac marine is insanely good.

Saying a power sword is bad.on a tac marine is.like saying I could buy a Honda civic, or magically spend 8,000 more and geta special Mercedes that would have so many upgrades included it would cost 24,0000 more to add the same to a normal Honda civic.

The power sword is essentially free to the strike squad, no idea how getting ap3 attacks in melee is bad.

Was the OP originally trolling?

I mean, who seriously wants their army to use flakk missiles?