Balancing Grey Knights

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**vipoid**

Quickjager wrote:
It also makes no sense.

Nor does the DK being a MC.

**total0**

Agreed, or make it a relic of the armoury (a character may purchase the suit just like the soul glave ect) but only 1 may be taken per army

**SGTPozy**

vipoid wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
It also makes no sense.

Nor does the DK being a MC.

100% agree with you! If Mankind can make one MC suit of armour, why don't they have more? Dreadnoughts would be irrelevant to them then

**raverrn**

Yes, the 160 point Dreadknight should fill the same slot as a 700 point Stompa.

**Quickjager**

Wow everyone is still stuck on posting about the Dreadknight; Quite a few MC make no sense (looks at Riptide, Wraithknight) when only really Tyranids should have them.

How about you make a thread about MC then? Nerfing that category would nerf the DK as well, or instead consolidate those three units into one thread and re-categorize them as walkers. Now shoo.

Relic of the armory also wouldn't work because it isn't an a relic... apparently it was recently developed. If we were only allowed one per army I would insist that Daemon Princes, Riptides, Wraithknights receive the same treatment.

The only reason the DK is effective is BECAUSE it can be taken in multiples, ya know JUST LIKE THE OTHERS?

It is essentially a 5 man terminator squad with 2 special weapons and the ability to move 12 inches.

Dreadnoughts ARE irrelevant to the GK now...

Edit: I love the second I suggest nerfing everyone elses MC you all backoff.

**DogOfWar**

Quickjager wrote:
Wow everyone is still stuck on posting about the Dreadknight; Quite a few MC make no sense (looks at Riptide, Wraithknight) when only really Tyranids should have them.

How about you make a thread about MC then? Nerfing that category would nerf the DK as well, or instead consolidate those three units into one thread and re-categorize them as walkers. Now shoo.

Relic of the armory also wouldn't work because it isn't an a relic... apparently it was recently developed. If we were only allowed one per army I would insist that Daemon Princes, Riptides, Wraithknights receive the same treatment.

The only reason the DK is effective is BECAUSE it can be taken in multiples, ya know JUST LIKE THE OTHERS?

It is essentially a 5 man terminator squad with 2 special weapons and the ability to move 12 inches.

Such passion!

But seriously, the pendulum just swung too far the other way with the DK. It went from 235 (for a teleporter and an incinerator) to 190 (lets assume we also take a sword to retain Force), but most of that is the huge, 60% reduction in cost for the teleporter.

DK + teleporter + incinerator should have been a flat 200 points.

Strike Squads should have had Infiltrate, teleport homers for +20 points, and the option for Psybolt ammunition (for a +3 ppm value, not a flat fee of +20).

Dreadnoughts should have had the option for Psybolt, but for at least +15 points (160 points for Heavy 4, S8 AP4, twin-linked on 3HP AV12).

When rules are cumbersome, hard to understand, cause confusing interactions, or slow down the game, I'm 100% in favour of removing them. When the only problem is that they're simply too good for the cost (I'm looking at you, +5 point Psybolt on vehicles), the logical answer is to increase that cost to a reasonable level, not just remove them altogether. To me, taking away the wargear option completely screams, "we couldn't be bothered to re-balance the points costs."

DoW

**Quickjager**

Then lets just nerf ALL the MC, or like I mentioned (which was just repeating someone elses complaint) move the three units to the walker category.

Everyone complains about them, lets just change the lot instead at this point.

But if we're gonna balance the Dreadknight for the current ed....

-Make the Nemesis Greatsword upgrade cost 5 more (You're paying for force)
-Remove Concussive from the hammer and keep the price the same (You're paying for force so you plan to one shot on that one wound, therefore Concussive doesn't matter)
-Decrease the psylencer cost by 10 (A gun with no AP and Str 4 doesn't deserve to cost so much, especially when the Psycannon is so much better)
-The Shunt-pack... almost literally makes the DK the threat it is... without it, the DK becomes... another terminator squad, I honestly can't put a price on it because it is the only unit in the GK arsenal that can actually DO things quickly, besides Interceptor squads.

A DK without any upgrades at all doesn't scare anyone, one with the pack and weapon scare MC, one with pack and 2 guns melts 5+ armor squads, one with everything becomes a efficient platform for everything short of fliers.

Even if all this comes to pass though you'll STILL see DK on the table, because there isn't anything to compete with it.

**raverrn**

Seriously. It's like...what are your other HS options? Purgation Squads are almost totally outshone by Purifiers an not even that good besides, and Land Raiders which if you're taking you take as DT anyway.

**Slayer222**

Well to focus on purgation squads...
cheapen psy-cannons by 5 points.
give relentless.
another option would be to give them other gun choices... longer range.
But these will only make them a choice but not optimal vs dread knights.

**chnmmr**

Simple fix is to make Purgation squads relentless and unable to upgrade their melee weapons. That way they are a great (for GKs) ranged without being better than GKSS in every way.

**koooaei**

Simple fix is to make a shunt upgrade cost more (like 60-70 pts like it used to be) while throwing a bone to psycannon purgators.

**Quickjager**

The question is... what is the bone?

**koooaei**

Quickjager wrote:
The question is... what is the bone?

Scout move/infiltrate or something.

Besides, i think i know what can make strikes viable without changing strikes themselves. Psycannon on razorbacks.

**Quickjager**

...Psycannon... on razorback? I don't... understand. Are we talking about 6th ed assault cannon with psyammo?

What does this change?

**koooaei**

Makes pagk more appealing.

**Quickjager**

But with the new codex changes, the option to take them in the FA slot IS an option. So you might get people circumventing the buy-in entirely.

It also doesn't address Purgation Squads still because you know, no firepoints. DK still remains prominent then.

I mean I guess it DOES make Strike Squads more appealing... but I guess it really depends on the cost. I dunno it encourages taking the minimum amount of troops costwise, Gives an additional model on the board and the alluring draw of a Psycannon that doesn't suffer from salvo. The minimum cost of getting a unit a psycannon comes about the same, but one is more mobile and weaker at same time.

It MIGHT actually exacerbate the presence of DK on the field though. depending on the point cost it might make players go back to CAD instead of the formation, meaning 3 HS slots open up instead of 2. Would depend on point limit of the game.

**vipoid**

With regard to buffing Purgation squads, there was an idea a while back in this thread to give them a psychic power that increased the range of their weapons. So, Psycannons and Psilencers would get +12" of range, and Incinerators would become Torrent.

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:
With regard to buffing Purgation squads, there was an idea a while back in this thread to give them a psychic power that increased the range of their weapons. So, Psycannons and Psilencers would get +12" of range, and Incinerators would become Torrent.

Why not psy power that makes them relentless instead? Cause torrent heavy flamers are freaking ott when you put the guyz in a pod.

**vipoid**

koooaei wrote:

Why not psy power that makes them relentless instead?

Because there's already Grand Masters, Terminators, Paladins and the Dreadknight with Relentless?

Seems like that base is pretty well covered at the moment.

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:
koooaei wrote:

Why not psy power that makes them relentless instead?

Because there's already Grand Masters, Terminators, Paladins and the Dreadknight with Relentless?

Seems like that base is pretty well covered at the moment.

So how does their relentless help purgators?

**chnmmr**

Currently without relentless, Purgators are heavy support GKSS with access to more heavy weapon slots and nightvision. Unfortunately they compete with the NDK for HS slots, so won't get picked.

The only reason you'd take them now is for 4 incinerators.. but then nightvision has no purpose. Take 4 psycannons/psilencers and while nightvision is useful, moving screws you over because either the weapon is Heavy and can't fire at all, or is Salvo and the range is halved with less shots to boot.

**koooaei**

So far i see: "No matter what you do, dreadknight is better". I scent wave serpents.

**SGTPozy**

Quickjager wrote:
Wow everyone is still stuck on posting about the Dreadknight; Quite a few MC make no sense (looks at Riptide, Wraithknight) when only really Tyranids should have them.

How about you make a thread about MC then? Nerfing that category would nerf the DK as well, or instead consolidate those three units into one thread and re-categorize them as walkers. Now shoo.

Relic of the armory also wouldn't work because it isn't an a relic... apparently it was recently developed. If we were only allowed one per army I would insist that Daemon Princes, Riptides, Wraithknights receive the same treatment.

The only reason the DK is effective is BECAUSE it can be taken in multiples, ya know JUST LIKE THE OTHERS?

It is essentially a 5 man terminator squad with 2 special weapons and the ability to move 12 inches.

Dreadnoughts ARE irrelevant to the GK now...

Edit: I love the second I suggest nerfing everyone elses MC you all backoff.

The difference is that it makes no sense for the Dreadknight to be a MC! A Riptide is a large crisis suit, which has very fluid movements like a regular person. I don't know much about Wraithknights, so I cannot comment on them, but the Dreadknight is CLEARLY an open topped walker. Just look at that thing!

About the Dreadnoughts, I was talking about the lore, not WAAC players like yourself.

**vipoid**

koooaei wrote:
So far i see: "No matter what you do, dreadknight is better". I scent wave serpents.

I think it just does everything too well - especially considering its cost.

I mean, you can easily get:
The equivilent of 4 T6 Terminator wounds, which don't result in any loss in firepower until the last wound has been lost.
- A 6-shot Psycannon on a Relentless platform (which can also be fired as a Large Blast)
- A S6 AP4 Torrent Flamer that can be fired in addition to the above
- 5 WS5 S10 attacks on the charge. Which can, if desired, be upgraded to have Force, Master Crafted, and which strike at initiative.
- Finally, for a pitiful cost, it can be upgraded to have a 12" jump move *and* a 30" teleport once per game.

It's the same problem with a lot of big units - they're not given any downside. Big units like this should not have access 12" jump movement - let alone for such a minuscule cost.

This is especially true because having it be the best at everything puts too much pressure on other units. e.g. Is there much point having teleporting GKSSs with incinerators, when you can have a teleporting NDK with the aforementioned Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon? It's a similar issue with Purgation squads - they can potentially put out more shots, but the NDK is a relentless platform - and so can manoeuvre to get better firing arcs, as well as being much more durable and more versatile (since it has the option of some very strong melee abilities). And, it's perhaps even worse for the Purgation squads because the two directly compete for FoC slots.

**total0**

vipoid wrote:
koooaei wrote:
So far i see: "No matter what you do, dreadknight is better". I scent wave serpents.

I think it just does everything too well - especially considering its cost.

I mean, you can easily get:
The equivilent of 4 T6 Terminator wounds, which don't result in any loss in firepower until the last wound has been lost.
- A 6-shot Psycannon on a Relentless platform (which can also be fired as a Large Blast)
- A S6 AP4 Torrent Flamer that can be fired in addition to the above
- 5 WS5 S10 attacks on the charge. Which can, if desired, be upgraded to have Force, Master Crafted, and which strike at initiative.
- Finally, for a pitiful cost, it can be upgraded to have a 12" jump move *and* a 30" teleport once per game.

It's the same problem with a lot of big units - they're not given any downside. Big units like this should not have access 12" jump movement - let alone for such a minuscule cost.

This is especially true because having it be the best at everything puts too much pressure on other units. e.g. Is there much point having teleporting GKSSs with incinerators, when you can have a teleporting NDK with the aforementioned Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon? It's a similar issue with Purgation squads - they can potentially put out more shots, but the NDK is a relentless platform - and so can manoeuvre to get better firing arcs, as well as being much more durable and more versatile (since it has the option of some very strong melee abilities). And, it's perhaps even worse for the Purgation squads because the two directly compete for FoC slots.

You hit the nail on the head here sir, i salute you

**AnomanderRake**

My solution for a downside to large angry things beyond cost in my 40k rewrite and related materials was to make them easier to shoot at; don't know if that gives anyone ideas.

**raverrn**

koooaei wrote:
Simple fix is to make a shunt upgrade cost more (like 60-70 pts like it used to be) while throwing a bone to psycannon purgators.

You want to make it cost similarly to a Wraithknight?

I think you're overreacting a little bit.

**vipoid**

Honestly, I think the better option would be to remove the Jump upgrade altogether.

Large, tough models should not be as fast as jump infantry or beasts. There has to be a trade-off.

**koooaei**

vipoid wrote:
Honestly, I think the better option would be to remove the Jump upgrade altogether.

Large, tough models should not be as fast as jump infantry or beasts. There has to be a trade-off.

Agreed. And it's gona also inspire a less balls-out turn 1 alphastrike approach.

**Quickjager**

SGTPozy either act politely or GTFO, I have done nothing to you except call you out for idiotic statements; in your thread I have even been polite even though your threads have a trademark of mocking other threads that are currently up.

Your statement about how the fething Riptide is a CLEARLY a Monstrous Creature stinks of bias of such extent. You have yet to contribute anything to this thread beyond negative statements.

At this point whatever any of you propose, it may as well be a new unit with a new model with the extent that all of you clearly want to "rebalance" the GK arsenal.

None of you have even bothered talking about HQs which ALL of them except the Libby are overcosted. Instead you all focus on the only threat in the codex to your guys armies. You want to nerf the DK.

You want to move away from the turn one alpha strike. GREAT how about you give the army some TOOLS do that?
All you all want to do at this point is have GK become Space Marine -1; koooaei we're forced into this alpha strike BECAUSE we don't have many models on the field.

You guys can increase the DK cost, you'll still see them on the field.

So your answer is "Hey lets get rid of the threat range instead, this way NO ONE will take them, I mean the Riptide can only Jump-and-shoot, the WK can only move 12 inch with ease". These double-standards are impressive even for a forum.

It's genius. It's on par with GW invalidating GKSS and making the people buy more terminators.