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We have Hand Flamers, Inferno Pistols, Glaive Encarmine and Frag Cannon.
Which are basically Flamer pistols, Melta pistols, lame Power Weapons and one really unique weapon.
I can't see them removing that.
Oh yeah, we also have Blood Talons on Dreads.

The non-weapon Wargear are Blood Chalices, which are Nartheciums that give Fearless and effect a bubble instead of only the unit.
I don't expect any changes there either.

As long as my 2 Land Raiders and 2 Stormravens can still kick butt nothing much will change for me.

 raiden wrote:
when is said BA dex supposed to drop?

Rumor and Scuttlebutt is saying after Dark Eldar and before X-Mas.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Id be a little careful in adding too much into guys. Now I haven't read the new GK codex, but there was a lot of streamlining in the Ork and SW codex. Our special characters lost a lot of their "extras" I wouldn't be surprised to see Mephiston get the Njal treatment. Loose all the little extra stuff that made him "more" than just another higher level rune priest, but a massive points drop as well.

Also dont forget all of the culling of special "flavorful" wargear that both SW and Orks went through, I'd expect BA to recieve a lot of the same treatment. I can't say for sure what items will get culled, but I wouldn't consider any of the unique items safe. Just going off what I have seen before.

Ah, I see that we think alike.

The real question is who will get the LOW slot... I could see Dante getting it, but Mephiston's just as good of a contender (and definitely more worthy, and he might retain some badassery if he is). Sanguinor could be an outside contender, but personally I hope he gets cut entirely because his fluff is godawful.

None of you really addressed the major problem of this faction being a viable army to play....

Blood angels are a Qualitative, Melee, and short ranged faction along the lines of grey knights except grey knights are just better atpractically everything and are psychers as well.

They would need need to do something along the lines of all the following

A. Increase the survivability of base assault marines in some regards along the lines of giving them a free apothecary for say to at least grant them a chance to get across the field without taking major casualties.

B. They would need to come out with a new fast attack unit along the lines of a skimmer that creates a bubble for said assault marines granting them bonuses along the lines of fleet of foot to allow them to get down the field faster while in addition granting them something along the lines of Furious Charge

C. They would need to decrease the cost of taking up death company to make them more fieldable.

D. They would need to grant Mephiston an Ap2 sword and most likely an 5+ Invuln save because as of the moment their is so much rending, and so much ap2 he just can't make it down the field, while at the same time relieving him of some of his attacks, most likely (2)

E. They would need their rules of deepstrike changed to allow them to then be able to move after they deepstrike along the lines of grey knights, however being blood angels their specialty is that they can move 9"after deepstrike. So that they can get safely behind some means of line of sight blocking terrain.

F. Finally they would need to grant assault marines the ability to take up grav guns and trade out their close combat weapons for ranged weapons..

That's what I'd do to make them a relevant army worth playing..

 Dezstiny wrote:
None of you really addressed the major problem of this faction being a viable army to play....

Blood angels are a Qualitative, Melee, and short ranged faction along the lines of grey knights except grey knights are just better atpractically everything and are psychers as well.

They would need need to do something along the lines of all the following

A. Increase the survivability of base assault marines in some regards along the lines of giving them a free apothecary for say to at least grant them a chance to get across the field without taking major casualties.

B. They would need to come out with a new fast attack unit along the lines of a skimmer that creates a bubble for said assault marines granting them bonuses along the lines of fleet of foot to allow them to get down the field faster while in addition granting them something along the lines of Furious Charge

C. They would need to decrease the cost of taking up death company to make them more fieldable.

D. They would need to grant Mephiston an Ap2 sword and most likely an 5+ Invuln save because as of the moment their is so much rending, and so much ap2 he just can't make it down the field, while at the same time relieving him of some of his attacks, most likely (2)

E. They would need their rules of deepstrike changed to allow them to then be able to move after they deepstrike along the lines of grey knights, however being blood angels their specialty is that they can move 9"after deepstrike. So that they can get safely behind some means of line of sight blocking terrain.

F. Finally they would need to grant assault marines the ability to take up grav guns and trade out their close combat weapons for ranged weapons..

That's what I'd do to make them a relevant army worth playing..

This thread isn't about what we would do though, its about what we expect to see. Which is probably why none of us listed anything to really fix the problem

 Dezstiny wrote:
None of you really addressed the major problem of this faction being a viable army to play....

Blood angels are a Qualitative, Melee, and short ranged faction along the lines of grey knights except grey knights are just better atpractically everything and are psychers as well.

They would need need to do something along the lines of all the following

A. Increase the survivability of base assault marines in some regards along the lines of giving them a free apothecary for say to at least grant them a chance to get across the field without taking major casualties.

Being able to take a Blood Chalice for each squad could do that.

B. They would need to come out with a new fast attack unit along the lines of a skimmer that creates a bubble for said assault marines granting them bonuses along the lines of fleet of foot to allow them to get down the field faster while in addition granting them something along the lines of Furious Charge.

With the way they are now doing Dedicated Transports you would be able to take extra Land Speeder Storms making Assault Scouts viable.
As for a General "Assault Speeder" I could see that.

C. They would need to decrease the cost of taking up death company to make them more fieldable.

We are sure that is going to happen to most units.

D. They would need to grant Mephiston an Ap2 sword and most likely an 5+ Invuln save because as of the moment their is so much rending, and so much ap2 he just can't make it down the field, while at the same time relieving him of some of his attacks, most likely (2)

They could do like they did Crowe and give him Smash. He might also get a Iron Halo.

E. They would need their rules of deepstrike changed to allow them to then be able to move after they deepstrike along the lines of grey knights, however being blood angels their specialty is that they can move 9"after deepstrike. So that they can get safely behind some means of line of sight blocking terrain.

I could see that as part of a Formation, Detachment or Warlord Trait.

F. Finally they would need to grant assault marines the ability to take up grav guns and trade out their close combat weapons for ranged weapons..

If they get Grav-Weapons they would also be getting Centurions along with all the other options like Codex: Space Marines.
I could see All Powered Armored units getting the option for Jump Packs instead of Assault Squads gaining Bolt Guns.

That's what I'd do to make them a relevant army worth playing..

With the current recorded I don't think that is going to be much of an issue. They have for the most part been Balance and within the theme of the army.

I think BA players need to be a little realistic at what is going to happen. BA is an assaulty army in a shooty edition. GW is not going to give you an abundance of abilities that will suddenly make it easier to assault or even win in assault. By this simple issue your best placement will be mid tier at best.

Your going to get more bodies on the table thanks to some point drops, but don't suddenly think your going to see assault on turn 1 or special rules allowing assault out of deep strike, reserves, etc. Your still going to have to sit out in the open like everyone else for a turn and still have to suck up challenges and random charge distances. Just because you will be able to move faster across the battlefield via boosted engines and jump packs galore, that will do nothing to protect you from the top teir shooting armies that really dont care.

Its not the BA codex that makes BA have such a hard time of it, but the core ruleset we are currently working in. Yes, you will get your own psychic discipline, but expect it to be "meh" quality at best and still probably not as universally useful as the core disaplines.

As I've looked over the BA codex with the exception of unit prices there is actually very little wrong with it. Its the core ruleset that cut its teeth out, not the dex itself.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think BA players need to be a little realistic at what is going to happen. BA is an assaulty army in a shooty edition. GW is not going to give you an abundance of abilities that will suddenly make it easier to assault or even win in assault. By this simple issue your best placement will be mid tier at best.

Your going to get more bodies on the table thanks to some point drops, but don't suddenly think your going to see assault on turn 1 or special rules allowing assault out of deep strike, reserves, etc. Your still going to have to sit out in the open like everyone else for a turn and still have to suck up challenges and random charge distances. Just because you will be able to move faster across the battlefield via boosted engines and jump packs galore, that will do nothing to protect you from the top teir shooting armies that really dont care.

Its not the BA codex that makes BA have such a hard time of it, but the core ruleset we are currently working in. Yes, you will get your own psychic discipline, but expect it to be "meh" quality at best and still probably not as universally useful as the core disaplines.

As I've looked over the BA codex with the exception of unit prices there is actually very little wrong with it. Its the core ruleset that cut its teeth out, not the dex itself.

This is very true on many counts, but there will be a lot of little changes.

The one thing I am almost sure of is that Death Company will change again, they can not leave it alone for some reason.

My biggest concern is our Chapter Tactics. The jet pack based CT for the Raven Guard are great, really adding to their mobility and their charges. Id expect we'll keep DOA the way it is, and get FC for all BAs. Like the RGs id also expect a little something for the non-jump pack marines. I was thinking an extra inch for charge ranges and Run moves on non bulky or bulky+ models That 1 inch combined with FC could make a Tac squad charge decentish, and wouldn't be too op.

After that a big general concern about making CC more realistic for us. Faster jetpacks? Assault after DP? That would be just nuts, but maybe some kinda dispersion move after landing. like a consolidate D6 to help against templates. Nothing sucks worse than landing right where you want to and then have a large blast massacre your squad.

I could see rad guns instead of grav. Theyd just add a little extra sprue to the BAs boxed set with a rad gun and rad pistol. Radical. Had to say it dudes.

Some people talking about us getting a special BAs only flier, I don't think so personally. Our stormraven could just get a special BAs sprue in the box too. An extra bit to add rad guns or flamers. At that point I could also see some rad sprue additions to our Baal preds.

Id put Mephi in the LoW slot.

Mostly, whatcha think about the chapter tactics?

Well, I'd like to see a pt drop for Assault Marines and Termies.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'd like to see a pt drop for Assault Marines and Termies.

They will be brought in line with their vanilla counter parts....so terminators will still suck (40 points for tactical termies, 45 for TH/SS I think?), and ASM will be what, 1 point cheaper? With the auto-include sergeant gone, for the total cost saves on the entire unit being what, 15 points?

My biggest concern is our Chapter Tactics. The jet pack based CT for the Raven Guard are great, really adding to their mobility and their charges. Id expect we'll keep DOA the way it is, and get FC for all BAs. Like the RGs id also expect a little something for the non-jump pack marines. I was thinking an extra inch for charge ranges and Run moves on non bulky or bulky+ models That 1 inch combined with FC could make a Tac squad charge decentish, and wouldn't be too op.

This scares me too. If the chapter tactic is too melee focused it will basically force a melee build or to play the vanilla codex for a more balanced tactic. If they don't give us some excellent melee tools to support a melee build well....we will be a melee army in a shooting edition, and that's never good.

DOA and FC might be the entirety of our chapter tactics.....full stop.

As for new units, there's a ton of things they could do very easily.

1. Moriar the blender dread.
2. Stormtalon and/or variant of such.
3. Storm Raven variant.
4. "Destroyer" or shooting based assault squad (from the HH era books). Twin-pistols, assault rad-missile launcher, rad grenades, counter-attack, special weapon spam...etc.
5. With access to grav-weapons we could see the next evolution of marine vehicles with a slew of new predator, Baal predator, land raider and/or razorback variants/weapon options. This would also "force" vanilla marine players to purchase the book to have access to these new toys, which seems like GW's new style these days.

10pt Jump Packs for Death Company
Removal of Vanguard
Death Company get rending
Captains get Arificer armour
Glaive Encarmines getting a str bonus

We aren't gonna get Grav weapons that's the Space Marine Codex snowflake item

Maybe blind when they deep strike?

 PastelAvenger wrote:
10pt Jump Packs for Death Company
Removal of Vanguard
Death Company get rending
Captains get Arificer armour
Glaive Encarmines getting a str bonus

We aren't gonna get Grav weapons that's the Space Marine Codex snowflake item

Maybe blind when they deep strike?

Don't be surprised if DC Jump Packs are only 3-5pts as an upgrade, Wolf Guard get them for 3pts with a similar statline (just less USRs). That said, they're still not worthwhile, but DC might have a reason to take them.

On a similar note, I'd be willing to wager that Sanguinary Priests become a squad upgrade rather than IC. That would be way less unwieldly, and they'd probably become cheap enough to consider at that point (although they'd certainly lose their area of effect bonuses in the process).

priests are certainly worth considering with there dex as is if you have a lot of boots on the ground.

On another note I would love to see Sanguinary Priests as squad upgrades but I can't see that happening due to the Red Scorpions tactics released by Forgeworld although I know Sanguinary Priests offer more bonuses.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
10pt Jump Packs for Death Company
Removal of Vanguard
Death Company get rending
Captains get Arificer armour
Glaive Encarmines getting a str bonus

We aren't gonna get Grav weapons that's the Space Marine Codex snowflake item

Maybe blind when they deep strike?

I agree everything here, but I just don't see why on earth would they remove Vanguard Vets...?
They are part of basicly any SM Chapter that follows codex astartes (read: Blood Angels) and they suit BA theme.

IMO, there just wouldn't be any reason to drop them. Fluff- or game-wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add that I expect to get other stuff from C:SM to our Captains as well.
Relic Blades? Sure, why not. Digital weapons? Yes please!
In addition, Death Masks would be a cool option. I would propably never use them but might make a nice model

Second the VV staying in the codex; its the most JP friendly (fluff wise at least) army, so why would vanguard vets leave? A couple posters have mentioned this, but I highly doubt it will happen. The SG are elite in a way, but the VV are a nice, intermediary elite in a JP themed army.

I agree that VV's should stay because I think it would be unfluffy to remove them.
But I do think that - gamewise - they are pretty redundant when we can field Death Company, who have Rage, Fearless and FNP for roughly the same amount of points.

I can't think of a good way to balance ASM, DC ánd VV's to a point where all have their use.
In the current Codex it's basically:
ASM: Cheap
DC: Punchy, but expensive.
VV: Assault out of Deep Strike.

One thing most people are sure of is that they will lose their Heroic Intervention and that DC will be made cheaper.
So what is left to make these three groups feel different?

Kangodo wrote:
I agree that VV's should stay because I think it would be unfluffy to remove them.
But I do think that - gamewise - they are pretty redundant when we can field Death Company, who have Rage, Fearless and FNP for roughly the same amount of points.

I can't think of a good way to balance ASM, DC ánd VV's to a point where all have their use.
In the current Codex it's basically:
ASM: Cheap
DC: Punchy, but expensive.
VV: Assault out of Deep Strike.

One thing most people are sure of is that they will lose their Heroic Intervention and that DC will be made cheaper.
So what is left to make these three groups feel different?

Which is why there is a strong chance that vanguard vets will go away.

You already have 3 other units with jump packs and if ASM stay as troop choices thats just choice overload and these new codexs have been doing a lot of slimming not expanding.

I personally would rather see Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Assault Marines have three solid builds and defined uses than muddle everything down by adding in yet another one or two units of jump packers who do nothing but blur the lines.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I agree that VV's should stay because I think it would be unfluffy to remove them.
But I do think that - gamewise - they are pretty redundant when we can field Death Company, who have Rage, Fearless and FNP for roughly the same amount of points.

I can't think of a good way to balance ASM, DC ánd VV's to a point where all have their use.
In the current Codex it's basically:
ASM: Cheap
DC: Punchy, but expensive.
VV: Assault out of Deep Strike.

One thing most people are sure of is that they will lose their Heroic Intervention and that DC will be made cheaper.
So what is left to make these three groups feel different?

Which is why there is a strong chance that vanguard vets will go away.

You already have 3 other units with jump packs and if ASM stay as troop choices thats just choice overload and these new codexs have been doing a lot of slimming not expanding.

I personally would rather see Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Assault Marines have three solid builds and defined uses than muddle everything down by adding in yet another one or two units of jump packers who do nothing but blur the lines.

That's the thing though, Vanguard Vets will lose assault from deep strike. This is hardly a debate - they lost it in C:SM, and GW rarely goes back on these sorts of things for identical units. Basically, they're now just overly-expensive assault marines with very little added benefit... so, more or less the whole nerfed effectiveness thing I was talking about earlier. VV are overpriced right now, but at least they fill in a niche that makes them at least worth considering, whereas C:SM VVs are just a waste of points.

Although Blood Angels class themselves as a Codex Chapter they differ drastically from a Codex Chapter.

I just see the codex being streamlined and Saguinary Guard being the Vanguard Vets.

 Jayden63 wrote:

Which is why there is a strong chance that vanguard vets will go away.

You already have 3 other units with jump packs and if ASM stay as troop choices thats just choice overload and these new codexs have been doing a lot of slimming not expanding.

I personally would rather see Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Assault Marines have three solid builds and defined uses than muddle everything down by adding in yet another one or two units of jump packers who do nothing but blur the lines.

Matters not. They are so strongly in the fluff and there is no way that they will be removed. Game mechanics have nothing to say about it.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Although Blood Angels class themselves as a Codex Chapter they differ drastically from a Codex Chapter.

Well... not exactly. They have Death Company, Priests and Sanguinary Guard.
Other than that they follow the codex astartes' logic of 10 Companies, Tactical, Devastator and Assault Squads and first company consisting of Stern/Vanguards and Terminators.
Why would they follow it otherwise and then drop a single unit out of there (which happens to suit their theme more than well), leaving the first company to Sternguard.

That's like assuming that Ultramarines drop out Tactical Squads.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

Which is why there is a strong chance that vanguard vets will go away.

You already have 3 other units with jump packs and if ASM stay as troop choices thats just choice overload and these new codexs have been doing a lot of slimming not expanding.

I personally would rather see Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Assault Marines have three solid builds and defined uses than muddle everything down by adding in yet another one or two units of jump packers who do nothing but blur the lines.

Matters not. They are so strongly in the fluff and there is no way that they will be removed. Game mechanics have nothing to say about it.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Although Blood Angels class themselves as a Codex Chapter they differ drastically from a Codex Chapter.

Well... not exactly. They have Death Company, Priests and Sanguinary Guard.
Other than that they follow the codex astartes' logic of 10 Companies, Tactical, Devastator and Assault Squads and first company consisting of Stern/Vanguards and Terminators.
Why would they follow it otherwise and then drop a single unit out of there (which happens to suit their theme more than well), leaving the first company to Sternguard.

That's like assuming that Ultramarines drop out Tactical Squads.

I really don't understand your statement regarding Ultramarines at the end.

Although Blood Angels follow the way a Chapter should be set out they act very differently for instance allowing their ASM to take dedicated transports. This could be seen as Commander Tactics but all tactics are sanctioned by the Codex so to me this bit of fluff has always contradicted itself. Blood angels also have numerous weapons they don't share with the tech priests and I would like to think a fully compliant chapter would.

I know you disagree but I just see Sanguinary Guard being our VV and some fluff will be rewritten to reflect this.

The point was, why would they drop something that suits the army so well.
Ultramarines are built upon Tacticals as BA are built upon fast assault units. And both have fluff reasoning.

And different weapons and tactics hardly matter when we are discussing about a unit like that. The only part of codex they need to follow to prove my point here is the system of 10 companies. They follow it basically perfectly at the moment and there is no reason that they would randomly brainfart and drop one unit out of there.

I understand your point about Sanguinary Guard, but right now they serve different purposes.
Vanguard Veterans are mobile strike force in the battlefield, and SG are more like bodyguards / Dante's bros.

You have your opinion about their usefulness/fluff reasoning and that's okay.
Nontheless, I promise you this. Unless Cruddace is reading this thread right now, there is absolutely zero percent chance that the VV will be removed.
You're welcome to come and mock me if that happens, but I just don't believe it will.

The only units I could see being removed completely are:
>Sanguinary Priest, and that is if they make them a Squad upgrade.
>Sternguard [well and VV] and that is if they go the DA/SW route and make them both part of a "Veteran's Squad.

I've stood by Blood Angels from 5th through 6th and I enjoy playing them, I just hope they'll become more competitive.

Bear in mind what Blood Angels are meant to be.....

Fast Moving
Dreadnought Variants,
Death Company as suicidal, homicidal death defying...

This is what I'd like to see some are more likely to happen than others:
- give option for either chapter master/captain on bike to give bikes as troops as they'd sit nice along side assault marines or even just option for chapter master
- reduce jump packs points cost for all units including death company to 3pts to match SM,
- off the back of the above, if death company take jump packs, they can only take weapons upto 12" range, thus trying to negate the relentless rule, keep them non point scoring
- give land speeders with a maximum of 5 troop capacity as a transport for regular marines
- give storm talons,
- make land raiders fast, but only 3 HP as in apocalypse formations I'd still keep the DS rule
- same points reductions on scouts as SM
- points reduction on all named HQs except Gabriel Seth (he seems to be quite balanced for his cost)
- Mephiston and DC Tycho option to join squads (we have house rule for DC Tycho, as he has been inducted into death company, he must accompany them, but the codex isn't clear, so I'm calling for codex clarification),
- give sanguinary guard either 2 wounds or invulnerable save,
- give grav guns
- options for rams on land raiders similar to Dark Angels
- give codex specific FnP on a 4+ as per previous to BRB USR

 Anpu42 wrote:
The only units I could see being removed completely are:
.
>Sternguard [well and VV] and that is if they go the DA/SW route and make them both part of a "Veteran's Squad.

I doubt this will happen. DA and SW never had Van/Stern vets, only Company Vets and Wolf Guard respectively. SM are the only other one to have Sternguard/Vanguard and they kept them, so BA will as well.

I expect the obvious points drops in line with SM (and hopefully cheaper SangGuard/Death Co), Chapter Tactics will probably keep DOA, FC (random or otherwise), and maybe something else for JPers.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I really don't understand your statement regarding Ultramarines at the end.

Although Blood Angels follow the way a Chapter should be set out they act very differently for instance allowing their ASM to take dedicated transports. This could be seen as Commander Tactics but all tactics are sanctioned by the Codex so to me this bit of fluff has always contradicted itself. Blood angels also have numerous weapons they don't share with the tech priests and I would like to think a fully compliant chapter would.

I know you disagree but I just see Sanguinary Guard being our VV and some fluff will be rewritten to reflect this.

Tabletop BA doesn't really follow fluff BA though. Everytime they update the army, they throw in new stuff to make them more unique. However, as far as the fluff goes, BA is not a primarily-jump army, they're still largely built up of Tactical Squads.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I really don't understand your statement regarding Ultramarines at the end.

Although Blood Angels follow the way a Chapter should be set out they act very differently for instance allowing their ASM to take dedicated transports. This could be seen as Commander Tactics but all tactics are sanctioned by the Codex so to me this bit of fluff has always contradicted itself. Blood angels also have numerous weapons they don't share with the tech priests and I would like to think a fully compliant chapter would.

I know you disagree but I just see Sanguinary Guard being our VV and some fluff will be rewritten to reflect this.

Tabletop BA doesn't really follow fluff BA though. Everytime they update the army, they throw in new stuff to make them more unique. However, as far as the fluff goes, BA is not a primarily-jump army, they're still largely built up of Tactical Squads.

True.
One think that would help Tactical Squads with the aggressive nature of the army, that will not get is the ability to take 2 Special Weapons.
Now if Death Company is a Unit Upgrade they will not be much of an issue if they keep with them getting Relentless.

Though with the odds of the Fast Razorback become FA Choices I can see Duel Razorback Combat Squads as a thing.