Should I buy the Chaos codex?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**King Pariah**

Yeah, Crimson Slaughter's Possessed are worth taking, and Crimson Slaughter can make it worth taking 1 squad of Chosen (PE combined with Plasma anyone?)

They also have access to divination which is pretty awesome. 1d4chan I am pretty sure has some interesting tactics regarding the Crimson Slaughter.

**calamarialldayerrday**

My favourite thing to do with my Chaos list is put ten Bloodletters in a Land Raider. I give the Land Raider a dirge caster and drive it right into the middle of the enemy. I unload the ten Bloodletters who can go straight into assault without any overwatch. They carry a banner so I can then Deep Strike my other ten Bloodletters with a Bloodherald right beside them. They usually end up dying after a couple of turns, but it's worth it for the inevitable bloodbath, and both players have a blast doing it.

**ausYenLoWang**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
but with striking first at I5, and then also having access to FNP, you'd have to make some terribad rolls to lose in cc to be swept

Yes, but generally if your whole army is comprised of these your now lacking in costs to deal with other effective things, or simply as often is not, you'll often be left footslogging said MEQ up as your rhino's are blown up, picked off by more effective weapons as generally brought to bear.

Also why not just take Noise Marines, for one measly point more you get fearless for the same setup, and access to a Doom Siren at least.

you also dont have the FNP banner in that unit add a bunch more points that can be sniped out..

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
I don't really get the "CSM are worse than C:SM" argument.

They're not. With their low starting price, marine statline/equipment and dizzying array of options, regular CSM are one of the best troops choices in the game.

Sir Arun wrote:If Chaos only had access to drop pods...

Yeah, no kidding.

Sir Arun wrote:I was flicking through my friend's codex and actually thought that units most chaos players do not bring to the table are also decent - the flying ML3 Daemon Prince in power armor looks like he can wreck face if you can keep him hopping from cover to cover, Maulerfiends look like fast flank movers that can get to enemy parking lots in good time to me, Triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefields look like they can mess up Crisis suits or Draigowing pretty bad, and the fact that you can take Legion troops as objective secured troops choices if you take the right chaos icon on your HQ is also nice. Massed AP3 bolter fire from Thousand sons along with a decent inv. save look nice. I was experimenting on some Noise Marines yesterday - they seem to be the perfect choice against armies like Nids or Orks, or Dark Eldar where you can expect to stay back and receive the attackers - 24 S4 AP5 ignores cover sonic blaster shots and a S8 AP3 blast with pinning - and then a S5 AP3 flamer from the blastmaster along with 5+ FNP on the entire unit is a great way to hold an objective against anything but terminators.

Chaos is neat that way, and one of the reasons I like them. They get just so much stuff so play with, and SO many different combinations of things with a lot of coustomizability.

The only tricky part with CSM is that when you do start adding those options on, they can start getting rather expensive (pointswise), and in several cases, they have a bunch of upgrades that are mandatory (cf. thousand sons and possessed, for example). If you can't figure out how to use all those abilities, then you're just bringing expensive space marines. As such, the CSM codex in general will always look bad for people who are looking for easy and straightforward.

If this isn't an obstacle for you, though, then yeah, there's a lot of neat stuff. 1ksons are definitely worth the cost of a half a squad of guardsmen apiece when used correctly, and you get to have all the coolness of ++ marines shredding through basically everything they point at.

i LOVE 1k sons, but SNP lame... just lame... they are expensive, basic cover is the same if not BETTER than the 5++.... its a wash and your sorc HAS to roll on the worst table in the game (luckily now gets an extra power out of it..)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:CSM used to kill MEQ very well, busting the Grav Biker meta fairly well with the Heldrake. Unfortunately they cut the Heldrake's nuts right off so it doesn't do that nearly as well anymore.

lol. The only thing they did to the helldrake was make it so that you had to point the helldrake at what you were shooting at. They went from nonsense rules to following the rules that literally every other vehicle follows. A tiny, necessary correction that doesn't change anything else is not "chopping its nuts off".

And practically the entire codex is devoted to killing MEq, something which it still does very well, and something that it never needed the helldrake for in the first place.

gonan touch on this.

the you can only hit whats in a 45 deg arc from the front yes. so you cant turn that template sideways. because it would go outside of that cone. if im wrong pls tell me, but that was my understanding.

**Makumba**

the template has to be within the 45 degree arc of fire of the helldrake and can't be outside. makes it hard flame targets that are close to it. It also does fewer melee attacks now. Got nerfed hard and I like it.

**ausYenLoWang**

Makumba wrote:
the template has to be within the 45 degree arc of fire of the helldrake and can't be outside. makes it hard flame targets that are close to it. It also does fewer melee attacks now. Got nerfed hard and I like it.

course you would. a unit you were having trouble dealing with was nerfed so hard its borderline useless. that 45deg arc infront of it is about the same as a flamer template, except you get to move it out 12" so torrent is rather pointless etc. only way it got better was it can now flame an entire ruin rather than 1 floor.
and the nerf to its vector strike. blah. but hey, if i need to ill call them "vendetta's " and they become amazing again.

**Sir Arun**

well the vendetta got nerfed hard too.

and given how the generic quadgun also got nerfed in that a lot fewer people auto-include it in their lists now, I'd say things even out.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
There are some halfway decent options in the Chaos Codex, but they are also quite expensive.

Thousand Sons are good at shooting Space Marines, but they're no better against an Ork than a normal Chaos marine and cost 50% more. The invulnerable save is okay, but if you factor in cover for other units they still look overpriced.

Actually Thousand Sons as someone valued it are actually worse then basic CSM if one takes into account cover because point per point the basic CSM will still do effective damage at a better cost.

The only time TSons are better is if the MEQ are out without cover.

Yes, that's what I said.

******

If I had written the Chaos codex I would have represented the marks in a graduated fashion. Lords always get the elite level so they're not worse than the troops they're leading (looking at you Nurgle Lord), upgraded Chaos Marine squads, Raptors, bikes and Mutilators/Obliterators get the basic level, Cult troops, Chosen, Possessed, Warp Talons, and Terminators get the elite level.

Khorne, basic level Rage, elite level Rage and Furious Charge with access to chainaxes (rending)
Nurgle, basic level FnP (5+), elite level +1 toughness and FnP (5+) with access to plague weapons (4+ poison)
Tzeentch, basic level relentless and a 6+ invulnerable, elite level relentless, +1 to any basic invulnerable save (5+ otherwise) and a psychic level (similar to brotherhood of psykers for a unit) access to all psychic schools and free from the miscast penalty for daemonology powers with access to flaming ammo (ignore cover)
Slaanesh, basic level +1I, elite level +1I with access to sonic weapons

That might be a lot for Tzeentch, but I think that they deserve something after so many years.

It might require some fiddling with rules, units and points cost but I think it can work.

**ausYenLoWang**

Sir Arun wrote:
well the vendetta got nerfed hard too.

and given how the generic quadgun also got nerfed in that a lot fewer people auto-include it in their lists now, I'd say things even out.

oh yeah but the vendetta is better value now in the high armor environment of the game. i would happily take it over the current rules heldrake

**Trollio14**

You would think that Evil Space Marines would be really fun to play

**ChazSexington**

Exergy wrote:

If you want to play a themed undivided legion, it is probably best to go with C:SM rather than C:CSM

I know I do

It isnt even that much about power level, just CSM has too little variety without marking things and taking lots of daemonic things

For me it's got nothing to do with the power level at all - I wanna play fluffy Alpha Legion, or close to it anyway as fluffy Alpha Legion tactics is winning, which means loads of IG (which CSM can't take) and a few elites units. I'm adding a Vindicare as well, which fits. Lias messes Reserve rolls, which is another thing similar to Alpha Legion.

MWHistorian wrote:

Make ways to make an undivided Legion like Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion feel like you're actually playing a Chaos legion instead of a generic warband.
etc etc

Psienesis wrote:
CSM need to get some thematic changes. There should be God-centered Chapter Tactics (Legion Tactics? whatever, this is not even a fully-formed idea yet).

Like, if your army is 51%+ of units all bearing the same Mark of X, then you get the Legion Trait of that Chaos God. So, like, let's say you have all 1KS, all with the MoT, they get the Tzeentch Legion Trait.... which is, I dunno, +1 Warp Charge per unit with a model with the MoT, +1 LD (because they know it's all according to plan), and, once per game, they get 1 free reroll of any test... or can force their opponent to take a re-roll on a test (call this Fateweaver's Boon or something).

Those with the Khorne Trait would get +3" Charge distance, attack in Assault at +1S, and attack at I, regardless of the effective I of their weapons. Possible downside is that melee to-hit rolls of 1 inflicts a hit against the model's own unit (Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows...).

... and so on and so forth. And this is just for adding the flavor of the Chaos Gods to the various builds, to mention nothing of reworking points and abilities of most of the units, as well as providing a list of equipment from C:SM and the various Loyalist Codices that CSM could have, conceivably, stolen/scavenged/kept since the Heresy.

Also, BB with the IG to represent their slave-armies, Traitor Guard, Blood Pact, etc.

This is the often touched upon problem. CSM is just too big a faction, and they've published codices for the least played warbands and legion. By jamming them all into one they've taken chocolate, strawberry and vanilla ice cream and mashed it all together into something that is still ice cream, but people who like chocolate won't be satisfied, nor people who like strawberry or vanilla. If they'd kept them separate in the box, it'd be fine. What CSM players need is a 3.5rd edition with internal and external balance. However, there's been loads of threads on this just since I came back half a year ago.

**FeindusMaximus**

Brother SRM wrote:
FeindusMaximus wrote:
NO

I like this thread full of people giving good reasoning and advice for why someone should or shouldn't buy this codex and you just leave a capslocked two-letter reply without so much as a punctuation mark. Care to elaborate why people shouldn't buy this codex?

it is dirt (all in lower case because that makes a difference, I'm wispering)..............DH

**ZebioLizard2**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
Sir Arun wrote:
well the vendetta got nerfed hard too.

and given how the generic quadgun also got nerfed in that a lot fewer people auto-include it in their lists now, I'd say things even out.

oh yeah but the vendetta is better value now in the high armor environment of the game. i would happily take it over the current rules heldrake

Yeah as the recent tournament listings for CSM showed, they are below even DA, how far has the heldrake fallen if it can't even beat them.