Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 20:26:13
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
|
Sir Arun wrote:I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
The codex is fine. ONE single weapon system ruined things and it would take a Privateer Press-like elegant move and ONE errata to rebalance it. Shorten the range of the Shield to 18". That's it. No one would even be talking bout this if they did.
|
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 21:26:25
Subject: Re:So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Been Around the Block
|
They aren't really. It's all the other books that are unerpowered. Eldar have the same core issue as High Elves in fantasy. They're an army built to be elite with one core weakness: T3. That's what is supposed to balance both Eldar and High Elves. Yeah, sure they're super mobile, super disciplined, super skilled in the psychic (magic) phase, shooting and assualt (combat). BUT they are T3 so if you look at them funny, they fall down dead.
BUT
They then have a bunch of things that negate T3 and make them a super tough army. So they end up being good at movement, magic, shooting, combat AND they have no real weakness. Jetbikes can jink, wave serpents can jink or use their shields, the psykers can make gak go invisible... While in fantasy, there's White Lions with their 3+ against shooting, Phoenix Guard with a godly 4++ base, and every time they get a spell off (which is often) they can start layering ward saves on everything. And then they have the frost phoenix.
So the real problem is that the Eldar book and the High Elf book are just too well written to fit in in Warhammer. They are elite armies with loads of strengths and lots of ways to deal with their one big glaring weakness. Now, it takes some degree of skill and understanding of your book to pull that off, and make T3 not matter, but it's possible. But if you look at the other armies, no one else gets that. Orks don't have a way around the awful Mob Rule. Orks don't have a way to just get to combat. Everything we CAN do to get us across the table has the caveat that 'oh but then you can't assualt that turn' or it's a truck and the problem is, yeah, but that can be popped by S4 shooting. Now, if Orks could assualt from deep strike, or assault from outflank, or assault after Da Jump, or could assault on turn one after using a scout redeployment, that would put them on the same power level as Eldar. Because they could be tough, hard hitting, numerous AND they could get to assault when the game doesn't really want them to. Sort of like how Eldar can be a T3 army that just will not die. But no. ONLY Eldar get that.
If all the books had the kind of ironclad rules that Eldar and High Elves have, there'd be no problem. If there was a way for Tyranids to get around synapse, or if there was a way for Tau to be effective in close combat, or whatever, then it would be no problem. Because it would be even. Everyone would have strengths and weaknesses and then some way to counteract that weakness and go into God mode. But ONLY Eldar/High Elves have that ability. And that unbalances the game.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:29:40
Oh my God! He wants to be a ballerina? That's MY f*#%ing dream! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 21:51:22
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote:morgoth wrote:Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.
I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.
The point is that people whine about Wave Serpents AS IF it CAN do all of those things at once. They whine the Serpent shield is shooting all the way across the table and is twin linked... but the scatter laser isn't free and only shoots 36. They whine about the shuriken cannon which isn't free and only shoots 24". They whine that the Bright lance discounts AV14 and can't be taken with the scatter laser. They assume the serpent never moves and fires all weapons at full ballistic skill, while flying 30" a turn. They pretend glances don't matter and that AV10 doesn't exist. The compare it at base cost and assume it has holofields, extra guns and move through cover.
The serpent can't move 30". It can move 12 in the movement phase and the rear will then be 5" from where the front was. You can block those movement options with a combat squad - two at most, plus that sweet sweet 35 point drop pod. If it moves any farther it's not shooting very well. Besides, where is it going to move? The other end of it's own deployment zone? Anywhere else and you should have something that can assault it. and even Tac squad krak grenades will rip that AV10 apart, potentially wrecking it with a single hit and certainly glancing it down, to say nothing of special weapons. Worried about alpha strikes? Take AV14 land raiders or a building and ignore every weapon on the " OP" scatter serpent until your deep strike/outflankers come in and assault the next turn.
Drop a pod or two with a pair of 5 man tactical combat squads and you will march block that serpent and still be in assault range the next turn. You'll also be able to fire 40 bolter rounds and throw 4 frag/krak grenades at a T3 4+or 5+ list. No troops on the field? Run around the serpent and prevent both movement and disembarkation.
The Falcon sucks. No one takes them because we'd take the fire prism if we wanted a tank in the heavy slot. Either way AV 12, jink or no, is immensely worse than the AV13 a dakka or annilator predator has. Both can go in corners and sit in cover so jink is generally a red herring in a real game not played on planet billiard table. A jinking gunboat is a waste of points unless its T7 of a random length game.
Jetbike "spam". If you can't kill 1 guy in a T4/3+ 3 man biker squad and force a panic off the board almost half the time, your list sucks or you are facing the "ultra competitive" Avatar. If there are 5+ guys, they're not spam and you'd only need to kill 2 to trigger a leadership and 3d6 off the board test. Killing a jetbike is exactly as hard as killing a tactical marine. If you can't do that, you're list sucks.
If you have no fast assault (beast/jet/jump) or rapid deployment (deep strike, drop pod/outflank/infiltrate/scout), you have a gunline and no right to complain if your gunline loses T1 and your alpha strike FTW fails.
Aside from Bikes, Fire Dragons and Scorpions, Eldar get 4+ armour on anyone other than the exarch, and 5+ only on Guardians, all of which are T3 (T4 for bikers bike). A S6 TFC blast will insta kill any of them, as will any S7 plasmas, kraks and lascannons.
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
Schroedinger's Wave Serpent in a vacuum is an amazing unit. The actual wave serpent that must be fielded and paid for, choosing what to do, and be constrained in movement by the board, other units and fear of assault is merely good. If we had a 35 point rhino option that let us fire a pair of special weapons out the top, you'd see storm guardians and fire dragons taking them.
Now if you want to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion, how about comparing the Wave Serpent to a rhino and saying exactly why it is OP when it costs ~130 points (with gear, but without troops) more than a rhino? Or for a less popular but closer comparison, the 12/12/10 80 point Devil fish? Please show your work and point cost estimates for each change in movement/ AV/etc so we have specific targets we can discuss instead of the Schroedinger's haze of if A then B hyper tailoring people seem to do on these boards. As one poster in another thread pointed out, the Eldar are paying 59 points for Fast and the Shield: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/614381.page#7212630
To answer the OP "Why the Eldar hate?" Because people like taking paper to beat rock, and paper sucks to scissors. In short, if your paper list is optimized to beat rock all day long, don't complain that scissors is OP.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/05 21:58:21
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 22:01:17
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Been Around the Block
|
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
See, you're being a little disengenous though because in order to get those 6 bolter hits, you need to shoot at the guy 36 times because invisible. So 2 tactial squads in rapid fire range. To kill one warlock. And my army doesn't have access to invisibility unless I ally in something like a seerstar.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/05 22:07:09
Oh my God! He wants to be a ballerina? That's MY f*#%ing dream! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 22:11:05
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet
|
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:Now if you want to have a PRODUCTIVE discussion, how about comparing the Wave Serpent to a rhino and saying exactly why it is OP when it costs ~130 points (with gear, but without troops) more than a rhino? Or for a less popular but closer comparison, the 12/12/10 80 point Devil fish? Please show your work and point cost estimates for each change in movement/ AV/etc so we have specific targets we can discuss instead of the Schroedinger's haze of if A then B hyper tailoring people seem to do on these boards. As one poster in another thread pointed out, the Eldar are paying 59 points for Fast and the Shield: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/614381.page#7212630
To answer the OP "Why the Eldar hate?" Because people like taking paper to beat rock, and paper sucks to scissors. In short, if your paper list is optimized to beat rock all day long, don't complain that scissors is OP.
You miss the point about "schrodinger's Wave Serpent": no one is saying that it does everything at once. It's the fact that it can do any of those things if the situation calls for it, which gives it insane versatility, combined with the fact that they can be spammed. Need to make a last turn objective grab? 30" move. Need to glance a vehicle to death? Fire the shield and any weapons that are in range. Need to negate 2/3 incoming shots? Jink, and don't worry about the DPS drop from that, just spend the next turn moving the squad inside forward and disembark them in the enemy's face (and it's not like there aren't 3 or more Wave Serpents where that one came from).
Wave Serpents don't have to do everything every turn, because they can use their extreme versatility whenever it's necessary.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/05 22:18:09
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
The usual serp build is 145pts. For 110pts you get on top of the rhino: fast, skimmer, jink, 6 st6 shots, twinlinked, serp shield, +2 transport cap and increased front and side armour. What you lose is 2 fire points and a storm bolter. That in anybodys books is worth more than 110pts.
Nobody is claiming that it can do all these things at once. The option of being able to do either brings incredible tactical flexibility. Either using it as a transport with a 30" skimmer move that has a 3+ cover and ignores almost all pens, or a gunboat that sits out of range of the vast majority of weapons and puts out an insane amount of shots whilst behind cover. And in one turn it can go from one to the other.
The ability to move so far on a transport is incredible whilst maintaining such durability. And when was the last time you saw your entire opponents deployment zone and every objective covered by krak wielding marines?
It is outside of a vacume that the serp becomes incredible - as yes you may make one or two jink, but in a spam that leaves plenty more to fire. And as every experienced 40k player knows - spreading your shots is tactical suicide.
A pod and squad cannot block a serp as it can just fly away (and over) from them and they will never get in range - and if they drop solo, or with just 1 or two other supporting pods, they will be wiped out in a turn by all the eldar firepower.
You also forgot the unit most dangerous with a 3+ - warp spiders.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 00:13:46
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
|
Over simplifying things is a bad argument. "paying points" is only an argument if the points are commensurate with the efect. A Serpent shield should be like a 40 point upgrade. Look at what the Void Raven bomber charged for ITS firepower!
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 00:29:25
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 00:59:37
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
|
morgoth wrote:
Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.
A transport that holds 12 that is practically guaranteed to deliver its payload by turn 2 is damn near priceless, without ever taking a shot.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 01:42:55
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 01:48:48
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet
|
Bharring wrote:For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
People pay 250pts for Land Raiders to guarantee that their contents make it through alive, and a Land Raider doesn't have nearly as much firepower as a Wave Serpent (and I think, mathematically, is less survivable against most things too). Of course, Land Raiders pay the tax of having the Assault Vehicle rule, but most things a Wave Serpent delivers are shooty anyway.
Rhinos are probably somewhat undercosted, but a Rhino itself is unthreatening and dies extremely easily, especially to something like a Wave Serpent.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 02:06:11
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
I was talking about Drop Pods, actually. Those'll get your stuff to the target.
(A Land Raider is only less resiliant versus special effects. Even Lascannons are more deadly to the Serpent than a Land Raider, and Lascannons are the wrong tool for hunting Serpents)
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 02:06:26
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 03:33:13
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Drop pods are great I love them but as someone who plays them sometimes I would really like to get where I want much later in the game. Drop pods are usually dropping off pretty slow units turn 1 and 2 that can then be shot at the rest of the game to get them off objectives where a WS or other transport can keep their unit fairly safe until late game when your opponent hopefully has less fire power to shoot them off whatever you want them to grab. Automatically Appended Next Post: Drop pods getting obsec for troops though is really nice if you land in the right spot though to force your opponent to deal with the pod.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 03:34:24
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 04:07:39
Subject: Re:So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Compared the DP to a regular transport isn't the same. There is value in the protection a transport provides. In addition, mobility it brings to slower infantry is crucial. And you can only bring half of your pods on at once.
Wave Serpents are also not 145 base. The main weapon upgrades are dirt cheap as well. Without firing the shield, the serpent gets insane durability bonuses. The jink save plus the ignore penetrations means for all the turns it is active it can complete its primary roll of ferrying troops. This is especially annoying when they can be spammed like they are. Taking scatter lasers with laser lock means that even if it jinks you can still get some hits in. The list goes on and on for the things it can do even without firing its shield once. It is constantly brought up by everyone as either undercosted and over powered. It is pretty much commonly accepted as well by now.
Personally, I think the shield should be reduced to 3+ or 4+ ignore pen. And once you fire the shield as a weapon it is gone for good. That makes it a risk reward thing. It keeps it as a powerful option if needed. And it gives some incentive to take weapons other than the standard loadout.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 05:21:31
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Besides the Wave Serpent, I personally have an issue with the Guardian Jetbike. Why is it so strong for the price it pays? It's a troop unit, has Eldar Jetbike rules, and gives 3+ armor for no apparent reason. Compare to other bike units, and most follow a pattern-
Space Marine biker- Grants Bike, +1T, twinlinked bolter for +7 points over a Tactical marine. Fast Attack unless you take a unit of 5 and a CM/Captain on a bike.
Ork Biker- Grants Bike, +1T, TL Dakkagun, and 4+ 'Eavy armor for +12 points over an ork boy (who can buy 'eavy armor for 4 points, so call it +8 for the bike). FA only.
DE Reaver Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, Single linked Splinter rifle, 5+ Armor, Bladevanes, for +6 points over a Wych, or +8 points over a warrior. FA only.
Guardian Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, TL Shuricat, 3+ armor, for 8 points over a guardian. Troops by default.
Where is the 3+ armor coming from? They clearly aren't paying the points for it. Orks get a bump ffrom 6+ to 4+, and that increase is built into the cost of the bikers. Marines start with 3+ and stay 3+. Dark Eldar start with 6+, and go up to 5+, but they are hybrid Warriors/Wyches when it comes to armor and wargear. But Windrider Jetbikes start with 5+ mesh armor, and somehow the bike gives them 3+ for free?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 05:29:38
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
- A drop pod becomes immobilised once it lands whilst a wave serpent can keep moving after ot jas delivered its cargo (big on an OS unit which can move 30").
- A wave serpent can redeploy its cargo, a drop pod cannot.
- A WS can keep its cargo safe inside as long as you require whilst a DP forces its unit to deploy.
- A drop pod is forced to deploy its unit turn one or on a randomly selected turn, WS gives you tactical choice of when.
- The turn after delivery a WS puts out 4 st6 shots, 2 tl st6 shots and d6+1tl ignores cover st7 shots to support its unit, while a DP puts out 2 st4 shots.
- A WS gives pinpoint accuracy in deployment, a drop pod scatters.
-Once deployed a DP can be destroyed easier.
- Drop pods must be reserved and only half come down turn 1.
The only similarity:
- Both are pretty much guarenteed to get their unit to their objective.
Ok now I've done that can people stop comparing WS with DPs to explain how WS are 'appropriatly costed'. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also like to point out that those few who say the wave serpent is appropriately costed are saying we need to adapt better to play them and think more tactically... yet these are the people who are soley focusing on the serp shields shooting as if that is the only problem it brings and refuse to acknowledge that a 30" move, 3+, ignore pen transport or a 30" move OS unit is not a massive tactical advantage. Hypocritical somewhat.
I mean 30" move with OS and the survivability of av12 3+ ignores pens means you can dominate all 6 objectives if you end up with that maelstrom mission, very easily. Yes you may lose a serp or two to combat if you do so - but then they just earned you the most VPs possible out of any of the maelstrom missions. Even if you don't get that mission, you can claim other objectives not on your current position easier than any other OS unit in the game - what other unit in the entire game has a 30" move and the survivability of the serp?
For the last time - nobody who criticizes the power of the WS is saying that it is just d6+1 st7 shots they are bothered about, it is the tactical versatility the serpent shield brings.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/06 06:38:09
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 08:23:23
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Aside from Bikes, Fire Dragons and Scorpions, Eldar get 4+ armour on anyone other than the exarch, and 5+ only on Guardians, all of which are T3 (T4 for bikers bike). A S6 TFC blast will insta kill any of them, as will any S7 plasmas, kraks and lascannons.
Actually we have 3+ on Warp Spiders and Wraithblades/guards too.
But the only 2+ in all the codex is the vastly underpowered phoenix lords.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
I'm not going to get into the seerstar thing because the psychic phase and Invisibility in particular is broken for any army. Non-Eldar specific brokeness of psykers aside, if you want to spend 50+ points for a warlock on a bike that has a t4/3+ and dies to 6 bolter hits, feel free. My Thunderfires, Vindis and Iron clad heavy flamers/DWML's all love them if there is nothing even juicier to kill first.
No need to worry about that, the Seerstar is not competitive anymore and the Beast Star is now impossible, thanks to v7 and new DE codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OldSkoolGoff wrote:
See, you're being a little disengenous though because in order to get those 6 bolter hits, you need to shoot at the guy 36 times because invisible. So 2 tactial squads in rapid fire range. To kill one warlock. And my army doesn't have access to invisibility unless I ally in something like a seerstar.
Your army doesn't even care because it's the only army in the game that only loses 50% damage output when snap firing, and has the volume to compensate its BS2 to begin with.
Not only that, but it's extremely easy to beat Eldar WS spam with orks, I don't know what you're even doing complaining here.
If anything's OP, it's probably the fact that Orks can snap shot on a 6 where they should have 6, then 4+ if snap firing had been fair to everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote:The usual serp build is 145pts. For 110pts you get on top of the rhino: fast, skimmer, jink, 6 st6 shots, twinlinked, serp shield, +2 transport cap and increased front and side armour. What you lose is 2 fire points and a storm bolter. That in anybodys books is worth more than 110pts.
Nobody is claiming that it can do all these things at once. The option of being able to do either brings incredible tactical flexibility. Either using it as a transport with a 30" skimmer move that has a 3+ cover and ignores almost all pens, or a gunboat that sits out of range of the vast majority of weapons and puts out an insane amount of shots whilst behind cover. And in one turn it can go from one to the other.
The ability to move so far on a transport is incredible whilst maintaining such durability. And when was the last time you saw your entire opponents deployment zone and every objective covered by krak wielding marines?
It is outside of a vacume that the serp becomes incredible - as yes you may make one or two jink, but in a spam that leaves plenty more to fire. And as every experienced 40k player knows - spreading your shots is tactical suicide.
A pod and squad cannot block a serp as it can just fly away (and over) from them and they will never get in range - and if they drop solo, or with just 1 or two other supporting pods, they will be wiped out in a turn by all the eldar firepower.
You also forgot the unit most dangerous with a 3+ - warp spiders.
1. 210 points to get a Wave Serpent, and no, what's inside is nowhere as good as krak wielding tactical marines with S4T4 3+
2. Wave Serpents do not have the mobility you think they do, not on a real table, not against a capable opponent. If you play correctly they have nowhere to go on T3, they'll have to move 30" and sacrifice half the WS or all the DAs just to survive another turn.
3. Not spreading your shots against Wave Serpents is tactical suicide.
4. There are only so many 7"x4" spots on a 72"x48" table.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClassicCarraway wrote:morgoth wrote:
Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.
A transport that holds 12 that is practically guaranteed to deliver its payload by turn 2 is damn near priceless, without ever taking a shot.
If it had anything deadly that could assault /shoot out of it ?
If it was really guaranteed ?
Then it would almost be as good as a Drop Pod, for four times the price in an army that doesn't really have anything worth transporting for 145 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Bharring wrote:For just delivering the unit, transporting 12 for 145 points to almost certainly get there, versus transporting 10 for 35 points to guarentee arrival, and most likely sooner?
The Serpent is OP, but if you completely removed the shield's shooting, it'd be overcosted (albeit not unusably so). Compare it to the 80pt Devilfish that nobody cares for.
People pay 250pts for Land Raiders to guarantee that their contents make it through alive, and a Land Raider doesn't have nearly as much firepower as a Wave Serpent (and I think, mathematically, is less survivable against most things too). Of course, Land Raiders pay the tax of having the Assault Vehicle rule, but most things a Wave Serpent delivers are shooty anyway.
AV14-14-14, more AT firepower, less saturation, assault vehicle.
In terms of synergy, the LR can transport really dangerous stuff.
The Wave Serpent not so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also like to point out that those few who say the wave serpent is appropriately costed are saying we need to adapt better to play them and think more tactically... yet these are the people who are soley focusing on the serp shields shooting as if that is the only problem it brings and refuse to acknowledge that a 30" move, 3+, ignore pen transport or a 30" move OS unit is not a massive tactical advantage. Hypocritical somewhat.
I mean 30" move with OS and the survivability of av12 3+ ignores pens means you can dominate all 6 objectives if you end up with that maelstrom mission, very easily. Yes you may lose a serp or two to combat if you do so - but then they just earned you the most VPs possible out of any of the maelstrom missions. Even if you don't get that mission, you can claim other objectives not on your current position easier than any other OS unit in the game - what other unit in the entire game has a 30" move and the survivability of the serp?
For the last time - nobody who criticizes the power of the WS is saying that it is just d6+1 st7 shots they are bothered about, it is the tactical versatility the serpent shield brings.
If you play only tactical marines on foot, on turn one, you will be 10.5 inches away from the starting position, turn two 21 inches.
That means 32 inches from your side of the board and 15 inches from their side of the board.
Considering a 4" wide Wave Serpent trying to avoid assault and a 2d6" charge distance, the Wave Serpents cannot get away from a charge on T3.
They could use their first 12" movement to get one inch from your tactical marines, and then jump over them in flat out 18", which would at most bring them 12" (18 -1(1" from the enemy before movement) -4( WS width) -1(base)) away, within charge range.
If you played smart, it would be about 14" and almost guaranteed charge on the next turn.
There is no 30" movement unless you let it happen, and there is no running away from the enemy unless you let it happen.
If the opponent has like 6 WS (one too much if you ask me) at 1850 points, he'll be giving you (from outside of charge range) 7.5 S6/7 shots a turn, 6.25 MEQ wounds, or exactly 2.08 dead marines per Wave Serpent.
If you can get away with losing 6x2x2 = 24 Tactical Space Marines over the course of two turns, you will have won the game.
Wave Serpents OP right.
If you can't get away with losing 24 Tactical space marines in order to win your game, your army list probably sucks anyway.
And of course, this is a lot easier to pull with Orks or Nids, which can do the same S4 CC spam for a lot cheaper. Automatically Appended Next Post: nedTCM wrote:Compared the DP to a regular transport isn't the same. There is value in the protection a transport provides. In addition, mobility it brings to slower infantry is crucial. And you can only bring half of your pods on at once.
It's not the same, it's not an iWIN button that costs only 35 points to Deep Strike any unit anywhere without risks on Turn one.
There is nothing as fethed up in 40K as the Drop Pod, and there you are, pretending it's worse than a Wave Serpent as a Transport ?
Get over your emperor's favorite privilege blindness willya.
|
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/10/06 08:48:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 09:28:11
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
morgoth wrote:
If anything's OP, it's probably the fact that Orks can snap shot on a 6 where they should have 6, then 4+ if snap firing had been fair to everyone.
Couldn't read past this, this is how you can tell someone is desperately trying to deflect from the army they play right here, just so
Get over your emperor's favorite privilege blindness willya.
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 09:28:49
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:09:06
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:21:36
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Couldn't read past this, this is how you can tell someone is desperately trying to deflect from the army they play right here, just so I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 10:21:53
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:29:56
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Sigvatr wrote:
I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math 
Here's the OP for you
Sir Arun wrote:I play Eldar but I only own 1 Wave Serpent and 0 Wraithlords. I also only have 3 jetbikes.
Without these, can I play an Eldar army without being called TFG? What else is there in the codex that makes people cry foul?
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/06 10:30:48
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:32:47
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
morgoth wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
Sigvatr wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Couldn't read past this, this is how you can tell someone is desperately trying to deflect from the army they play right here, just so
I just hope you're aware of the fact that the OP spams Wave Serpents? If a user spams Wave Serpents and then claims that they aren't OP despite everyone else saying they are OP...well...do the math 
He's not the OP.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/06 10:33:49
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:36:58
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Infiltrating Prowler
|
morgoth wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Cept this! Where Eldar has been good in 2nd (Exarchs!) 3rd (Altoic!) 4th (Holofalcons!) and now 6th and 7th (Guess!)
I played from 4th and I can tell you Eldar have only been top-tier for 14 months.
4th and 5th ed we were fielding the most brutally optimized lists to barely stand a chance against the emperor's finest.
Fielding anything else resulted in a one-way fight with dead Eldar all around.
Most of 6th must have been a nightmare too.
So really, Eldar have mostly had 14 months of spotlight, 9 of which with a Seerstar, 3 more with the Iyanden beaststar, and it may actually be over now since both are gone.
But hey, if you can't stand us pointy eared having any of the spotlight, just say so.
This doesn't really acknowlegde the fact that Eldars have been stupidly overpowered 5/6 editions.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:39:17
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
I'm saying Eldar had 14 months of spotlight in the seven years that I've seen 40K and that sounds pretty fair to me.
So far, most of the 40K I've known had Eldar as underdogs, and I had no problem with that either.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while. Automatically Appended Next Post: Zewrath wrote:This doesn't really acknowlegde the fact that Eldars have been stupidly overpowered 5/6 editions.
Aren't you an Imperial Guard player ??
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/06 10:40:03
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:42:28
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
morgoth wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So what your now admitting is that you really do just want Eldar to be on top? Well thanks for being so honest, I feel the spotlight should be available to everyone and that everyone should be on a closer playing field then what you desire.
I'm saying Eldar had 14 months of spotlight in the seven years that I've seen 40K and that sounds pretty fair to me.
So far, most of the 40K I've known had Eldar as underdogs, and I had no problem with that either.
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
So essentially, you've gone from "They aren't OP" to "Yall just jealous yalls army aint up here!" So yeah, Your done.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:52:40
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Horrific Howling Banshee
Finland
|
I would say that every time eldar have had a new army book made, it has been very powerful. It's inevitable, they have everything you can wish for available and even if few of the units get worse there are plenty others to become better.
I have played with eldar as my main army for 15 years, and after 10 games with the current codex I put them to storage, as I felt filthy playing with them.
|
Feel the sunbeams shine on me.
And the thunder under the dancing feet. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 10:53:33
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote:So essentially, you've gone from "They aren't OP" to "Yall just jealous yalls army aint up here!" So yeah, Your done.
They still aren't OP, it's just that even if they were, your whining is unjustified.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 11:15:12
Subject: Re:So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Mighty Vampire Count
|
Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
tbh there is not real point talking to this guy - he loves his cheese units, but wants desperately to believe its his skill that wins games so of course they can't be OP otherwise somehow his amazing wins would be down to something other than god like tactical genius rather than just picking the most powerful units and spamming them.
It hilarious that he keeps saying its jealousy when Eldar Players say Wave Serpents are OP.
|
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 11:19:29
Subject: Re:So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
not being the top in 5th ed, is eldar players version of being top dog for a short while?
Also the idea that eldar were top tier for 14th months since 4th ed.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 11:32:21
Subject: So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
He again also claims the units inside the transport should be free despite me refuting this repeatedly. Keeps saying an opponent can stop a serpent moving flat out (unless you swamp the entire table with an army of gaunts, or grots I don't see how), and also keeps saying others don't play well enough but won't accept blind obvious tactical truths. Also has remarkably similar language to another poster in the thread.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/06 13:01:48
Subject: Re:So exactly how are Eldar overpowered?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Mr Morden wrote:Apparently, it's just you and some other guys who can't stand their army being the underdog, and Eldar being top dog for a short while.
tbh there is not real point talking to this guy - he loves his cheese units, but wants desperately to believe its his skill that wins games so of course they can't be OP otherwise somehow his amazing wins would be down to something other than god like tactical genius rather than just picking the most powerful units and spamming them.
It hilarious that he keeps saying its jealousy when Eldar Players say Wave Serpents are OP.
Don't forget that Drop Pods are obviously the most OP thing in 40k.
|
|
|
 |
 |
|