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Not sure whether anyone mentioned that, but the new Dodge grants 4++ against all Wounds inflicted in the Fight sub-phase. Ergo, against Overwatch too. 4++ and FnP during later turns seems okay to me.

No it doesn't because Overwatch occurs during the Charge Subphase not the fight Subphase.

Hollismason wrote:
As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.

It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.


I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because

5 Warriors w/ Blaster
Haywire Grenade
Venom w/ 2 Splinter cannons

125 points

That's not like terrible.


Dark Eldar have always been a interesting army and a harder playing army in regards to actual player skill. They were like that when they first came out. It's not like a point and click army and it's become even more complicated with the chart and the playstyle.

It's pretty cool mechanic.

You missed the sybarite tax for a haywire grenade.

So it 135.

Personally I don't think its worth paying 30 for the grenade and blaster. Just pay 105 and get a venom plus 5 rifle shots and get AT elsewhere where it's more efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Except it flat out says otherwise.

I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.

TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ

Yea sorry, I was headed to bed and a bit groggy so I when I reached for my book and could't find it I just hit post :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Shardar and Leth- Please read the discussion before posting. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself with regard to HoW. I was stating it was hard to set up HoW on large units, like the 12 model units that were being brought up. If you disagree and think you can easily base 12 bikes then I am genuinely happy for you. For most players, getting a unit over 6 to land all their HoW is a bike unrealistic.

You realize White Scar bike armies are popular right? They have skilled rider, Hit and run, and strength 5 HoW yet you never hear how great they are in assault and they have better stats and krack grenades to boot.

Reavers are great maelstrom grabbers, harassers and mop up units but I think taking them in large quantities is a mistake.

Reavers

Loss of bladevane changes their tactical value if you used them to harass units. If you used them as mobile AT pot shots they are better.

thoughts-

3 reavers with 1 blaster before = 81pts

3 reavers with 1 blaster now = 58pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters before = 162pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops before = 172pts

6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops and 2 blasters before=202pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters now = 116pts

6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 cluster caltrops now = 146pts

consider we can get 6 FA.

Reavers may no longer be harassers, but now can be dual threat for less cost than 1 role they had before. Before bladevaning would allow us to put hits on something without engaging it, but we gave up shooting and assault, now we can shoot and assault and benefit from both in the same turn.

I think reavers lost utility, but they gained a lot in power for a lower cost.

Reavers now have the potential to threaten armor in shooting and assault, since HoW caltrops hit the armor facing you charge you can score a significant amount of str6 hits that rend, on average you will see 1 rend on a charge with 2 caltrops. This can give a unit 2 blaster shots and average 6 str 6 hits and 1 str6+d3 hits on a vehicle in 1 turn if it can shoot and charge it. That is no joke against transports, even against non transports you are looking at 2 str8 lance hits and a follow up str 8 hit from the rend, which is no joke for 1 round. More impressively, if the vehicle is already hurt, if you drop it with the blaster shots you can now charge the squad that has to disembark from the explosion, with a good chance of annhilating them from the HoW hits alone.

I think taking a "large unit" of reavers is not very tactically sound.

With access to 6 FA per detachment if we are taking the raiders detachment, it is best to take small units of reavers. You can always run them near each other so they can combine into an assault for the effect of a large unit, and against smaller targets break up to engage multiple units. As power from pain is no longer requiring us to kill units to progress the PfP level it is not that necessary to have a large unit of reavers, unless you just want to roll a bunch of dice when you shoot/assault things, but then be wary you will be rolling a bunch of dice when you have to make jink saves...


Regarding heat leances on scourges- DSing melta works for marines because even outside of melta range its str 8. Heat lances outside of melta range are str6, yeah they have lance but against a transport or armor that is AV 11-12 you still need 5-6 to just glance, a str 8 meltagun is glancing or penning on 3+ vs av 11 and 4+ versus av 12. Consider an average roll on 2d6 is 7, so a melta gun is scoring a 15 on average in melta range, and a 11.5 on average outside melta range, a heat lance is scoring a 9.5 outside melta range, and a 13 average inside melta range. Honestly heat lances is equal to melta gun at AV13-14 and below it in quality at AV 12 or less, which is why melta works out better deep striking than scourges with heat lances. Heat lances do have a better range than meltaguns, but the range difference for being in "melta range" is only 3" ie 6" for meltagun 9" for heat lance. So there is a 3" window where heat lances get melta range over meltaguns, and against AV12 or less the average roll from a meltagun is still good enough to glance AV 12 or less with a strong chance to pen. Those 2 points of strength make a large difference.

Foot Dark Eldar-

In older editions I do not think it would be viable, with WWP I think it is viable now.

it's hard to discuss a possibly viable foot list, without knowing the specifics of the event - often they have different list building rules.

That said, I think it is possible to have a non vehicle(armor) dark eldar list that works, I am not sure if it is as competitive as a DE list that uses vehicles.

The basis of the list would be using MSU FA and elite elements to saturate the board at the start, and have some in reserve to handle threats. Then your troop elements would be large blocks of things with HQs that have WWP so you can overcome the infantry lack of mobility by being able to place them as you see fit more or less turn 2+. I think its viable, but probably a lot harder to succeed with than a "traditional" dark eldar list.

I think ultimately a few of the formations + the raiding party detachment will end up being the most competitive pure dark eldar builds. namely the coven formation that gives you scouting talos, combined with mandrakes you have a large amount of initial close target saturation. I also think the formation that is 2 wracks in venoms that get 1st turn deepstrike and score d3 VP instead of 1 if they get first blood is probably one of the best formations published. Essentially you can deepstrike and disembark the wracks on a soft unit, or softened unit, and drop 4 liquifier templates on them, if they die you just got on average 2 VPs, thats pretty damn good. Not sure if the Venoms also get the special rule for more VP or if its just the wrack units form the formation, either way its nice and gives DE a first turn response if we are going second and the enemy opened themselves or DS something themselves.

There are changes in the codex but ultimately DE are the same, they will win based on the movement phase and setup. Just now there are lot more tools to retake the edge during our movement phases.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.

It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.


I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because

5 Warriors w/ Blaster
Haywire Grenade
Venom w/ 2 Splinter cannons

125 points

That's not like terrible.


Dark Eldar have always been a interesting army and a harder playing army in regards to actual player skill. They were like that when they first came out. It's not like a point and click army and it's become even more complicated with the chart and the playstyle.

It's pretty cool mechanic.

You missed the sybarite tax for a haywire grenade.

So it 135.

Personally I don't think its worth paying 30 for the grenade and blaster. Just pay 105 and get a venom plus 5 rifle shots and get AT elsewhere where it's more efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


Except it flat out says otherwise.

I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.

TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ

Yea sorry, I was headed to bed and a bit groggy so I when I reached for my book and could't find it I just hit post :/

That's probably true I don't play Dark Eldar, I play Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons, but Dark Eldar were my army in 3rd (when they were opposite eldar!!).

I actually think Kabalite True Born come in at cheaper, I think from the way I am reading it you can actually have a Venom w/ 5 of them and 4 of them have Shredders or 3 Shredders and 2 H. Weapons.

Not sure though. I'm reading it on Ubuntu and it always messes up the indents.

I would always take the chain snares on the venoms for the tank shock(if its 10 points or less)

Just the ability to tank shock any unit like 5-6 times in a turn.....combined with leadership reductions, make them run

Tank shock only occurs during the movement phase you can't flat out. So I don't think that tactic will work. I guess with it being a fast skimmer you could maybe just keep tank shocking the unit? Dunno but it looks like tank shock is a different beast because you declare doing it instead of your normal move.

However if you were straight up on them it's possible to tank shock them , them fail their morale and your continueing move make them fall back even more. So if it's head on it looks like that may work. Declare your full move for speed. Tank shock they fall back you keep moving forward in the path their falling back in and tank schock them again and they'd fall back again automatically.

So if it was a head on tank shock, you declare X movement. You tank shock them, they fall back immediately. You continue your move it leads into them again, they fall back again.

I think they're still restricted to the whole 12 inch move

Hollismason wrote:
As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.
It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.

I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
Haywire Grenade
Venom w/ 2 Splinter cannons

125 points

You've got to take a Sybrite to take haywire. It's 70 points for the warriors, 65 for the venom. 135 for the combo.
The part not to forget is that if you're going with realspace raiders detachment, all the troops get 5+ cover (which includes the transports).
While I like the haywire/blaster venom units, it seems to me like you're wasting your free cover save.
A raider with 10 warriors and night shields is getting a 4+ cover for free turn 1, and can start jinking turn 2 if it needs to.

-Matt

It's going to continue to be my statement that people will find this to be a more difficult army to defeat than they initially think. Simply because it plays a waiting game and can keep out of range easily with it's vehicles along with winding down the turns until it for 2 to 3 turns in strikes.Which I think is pretty cool because it is actually a tactical army.Getting pretty much army wide Feel No Pain and multiple ways to increase the turn count artificially is pretty interesting.


What's the minimum cost for the Formation is what I'm wondering as it's a full turn early for Feel No Pain.

Also no one else thinks it's hilarious that this can be a Tyranid style army?

You get 6 fast attack, and can take units of 3 of your big guys. 3 Squads of Beasts and 5 to 6 Monstrous Creatures to me seems pretty sweet and no one is really like Holy gak, wait I can have Monstrous Creatures that infiltrate with a formation and I get these sweet beast packs that's kind of awesome.

Hollismason wrote:
Tank shock only occurs during the movement phase you can't flat out. So I don't think that tactic will work. I guess with it being a fast skimmer you could maybe just keep tank shocking the unit? Dunno but it looks like tank shock is a different beast because you declare doing it instead of your normal move.

However if you were straight up on them it's possible to tank shock them , them fail their morale and your continueing move make them fall back even more. So if it's head on it looks like that may work. Declare your full move for speed. Tank shock they fall back you keep moving forward in the path their falling back in and tank schock them again and they'd fall back again automatically.

So if it was a head on tank shock, you declare X movement. You tank shock them, they fall back immediately. You continue your move it leads into them again, they fall back again.

I think they're still restricted to the whole 12 inch move

You have like 6-7 venoms.......Each one with their 12 inch move potentially hitting 2-3 units

Ah for some reason I read that as I'm gonna tank shock them 5-6 times with 1 tank.

Also, I kind of think that Formation for the Archon is a decent buy in for what it does for your army.

 Leth wrote:

You have like 6-7 venoms.......Each one with their 12 inch move potentially hitting 2-3 units

Yeah, because AV10 is notoriously good at not being nuked by heroics.

Generally speaking I like the changes to the codex, though the non weapon wargear is still atrocious with few exceptions (WWP is sweet for one)

One thing I feel obligated to point out is that in the Tau and Chaos codex you are not prevented from taking multiple artefacts on a single character. I realise that we DO have that limitation (though I don't think its justified), to those saying that this is the norm, you are incorrect. It varies, and it seems the DE where hit with the nerf stick.

Overall though I've dreamt of taloi swarms for some time. Dreams do come true folks, just trust in GW....

morgoth wrote:

 Leth wrote:

You have like 6-7 venoms.......Each one with their 12 inch move potentially hitting 2-3 units

Yeah, because AV10 is notoriously good at not being nuked by heroics.

Well some one is a negative nancy.

I was just saying its points for the opportunity, having the ability to tank shock with OS to get on objectives is a very powerful ability.

 Leth wrote:
I would always take the chain snares on the venoms for the tank shock(if its 10 points or less)

Just the ability to tank shock any unit like 5-6 times in a turn.....combined with leadership reductions, make them run

Snares are only 5pts and available on venoms now. I think they are an auto include now. Tank shock will make up for a lack of OBSEC in the realspace raiders detachment and is a sound tactic on any fast vehicle with DS.

Basically DS something like blasterborn, shoot then jink in their turn. If you survived tankshock rather then snapfire, or both


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Leth wrote:

You have like 6-7 venoms.......Each one with their 12 inch move potentially hitting 2-3 units

Yeah, because AV10 is notoriously good at not being nuked by heroics.

Or, you know, you could just clip a guy not carrying an AT weapon.

Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.

Hollismason wrote:
Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.

Sounds like a mishap.

It wouldn't be because first it has the skimmer rule, then it has the Tank Shock rule. Even if your not tank shocking the only time you are allowed to move onto a model, Skimmers still cannot end their move on top of a unit and if they do they get moved so that their not.

So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?

So Skimmers can't mishap by landing on units?

mercury14 wrote:
So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?

Much joy was had by marine players everywhere.

mercury14 wrote:
So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?

No, Drop Pods have special rules that allow that not to happen ever.

Skimmers have a specific rule that states if they end their move on top of another unit or a enemy unit you move them the minimum distance so that they are not on top of it.

Drop Pods can also not declare tank shock.

mercury14 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.

Sounds like a mishap.

it is just a way to mishap.

tank shock does not give permission to deploy within 1" of enemy models, which is what causes the mishap.

tank shock also requires you move some distance in a set direction which is the actual tank shock and models you move through, are tank shocked if they are non vehicle non terrain things. None of this stops mishaping from the initial deployment.

even if it did work, you cannot disembark if you tank shock so probably would not be best the best idea.

Go read the YMDC, I'm arguing for it. I've stated the reasons and the rules there. People are hung up on the whole you have to move X amount the problem is Tank Shock just says you premeasure then declare how far you move.

Also if it does work it's kind of broken because you can tank shock something they fail then they run off the board.

 godswildcard wrote:
What does everyone think about large squads of foot warriors? My thought is 2 squads of 20 with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters to anchor my line and provide some mid/long range anti-tank. That squad rolls out at 230 points.

I'm making a coven list, so I'm going with 6 squads of 5 wracks in venoms. I have thought that my default loadout will be an acothyst with a hex rifle and a wrack with an ossefactor in each squad. I'm really liking the chance of getting an instant death precision shot every now and then, and the rending doesn't hurt either.

DE dont play well with an anchored line, they play well moving fast and free abandoning one position for another when it suits them.

Also 230 points for 4 str8 ap2 guns is pretty bad. Devistators can get all lascannons for 155.

 Exergy wrote:

Also 230 points for 4 str8 ap2 guns is pretty bad. Devistators can get all lascannons for 155.

Devistators don't get 16 wounds to absorb with.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Also 230 points for 4 str8 ap2 guns is pretty bad. Devistators can get all lascannons for 155.

Devistators don't get 16 wounds to absorb with.

-Matt

^^ This.

They also don't have OB/Sec, and can't dump 16/32 Poison shots + those 4 S8 AP 2 shots into any MC (or really any non-vehicle) that dare gets close enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?

No, Drop Pods have special rules that allow that not to happen ever.

Skimmers have a specific rule that states if they end their move on top of another unit or a enemy unit you move them the minimum distance so that they are not on top of it.

Drop Pods can also not declare tank shock.

I must say I'm really intrigued by this discussion. Clever Handle has also brought it up on 3++. We really need to get this FAQed one way or another. Write your friendly GW staff, folks!

I am a fan that warriors can take haywires. But you have to upgrade to sarge

It's a cool codex, and yes I am going to argue they can I don't even play the army.

I think the most interesting thing about the army is that it rewards a long game style of play which is really interesting.

Like there's not many armies or any that really want that super long game of 4+ turns.. Deldar really want that 4+ turns.

That to me makes it automatically a very unique army with a completely different play style.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Or, you know, you could just clip a guy not carrying an AT weapon.

Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.

Tank shocking with Dark Eldar vehicles is anecdotal at best. When you're paper thin, you don't try to get in CC range with anything.