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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

1) If it was appropriate. 2) See 1.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
At no point in this discussion have I advocated that his response was appropriate for other DMs.

 pretre wrote:
Being a father, this kind of a response from someone else's uncle to my son would make me pretty nervous.

So you'd rather he gave your son a rape talk? Put yourself in the DM's position. A group of your nephew's friends are at your house playing D&D and rape comes up. Roll for initiative.
Oh, and before you quote the revision to my story that you used earlier, you are in the hot seat. You have 8 sets of teenage eyeballs on you looking for a reaction and you have seconds to respond. Quick, what is your response? Do you end the game? Do you give a lecture to a bunch of kids about a topic that their parents likely haven't discussed with them? Is penalizing the player while moving on with the game really such an outrageous solution? I am asking, as a DM is it? You aren't these kids' guardian. For the sake of argument let's say you pull your fictitious nephew aside after the session and explain why rape is bad, mmmkay, but in the moment what do you do?

If you are honest with yourself you'd see what an incredibly difficult position the DM was in, and likely want to extricate yourself from the situation as quickly as possible with the least amount of fallout possible.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

1) If it was appropriate. 2) See 1.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
At no point in this discussion have I advocated that his response was appropriate for other DMs.

If answering your rhetorical question is the same as advancing an argument then I need to go back to school and re-learn what I know about words.

You asked me a direct question, and I answered. That does not mean what I deem appropriate for my game is appropriate for other DMs. Because you are ignoring one of the main thrusts of my argument which is the response of the DM should be situational to the group.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
I don't think the GM was glorifying or encouraging rape; he was doing the opposite.

I don't think so. Imagine rape is a knife. He used his power as an adult and as the DM to take the knife out of the kid's hand and threaten him with it. This certainly shows that the knife is dangerous but I don't think it shows that threatening people with knives is wrong.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Being a father, this kind of a response from someone else's uncle to my son would make me pretty nervous.

So you'd rather he gave your son a rape talk? Put yourself in the DM's position. A group of your nephew's friends are at your house playing D&D and rape comes up. Roll for initiative.
Oh, and before you quote the revision to my story that you used earlier, you are in the hot seat. You have 8 sets of teenage eyeballs on you looking for a reaction and you have seconds to respond. Quick, what is your response? Do you end the game? Do you give a lecture to a bunch of kids about a topic that their parents likely haven't discussed with them? Is penalizing the player while moving on with the game really such an outrageous solution? I am asking, as a DM is it? You aren't these kids' guardian. For the sake of argument let's say you pull your fictitious nephew aside after the session and explain why rape is bad, mmmkay, but in the moment what do you do?

If you are honest with yourself you'd see what an incredibly difficult position the DM was in, and likely want to extricate yourself from the situation as quickly as possible with the least amount of fallout possible.

If I were in that situation I'd wonder why I a grown man were hanging out and DM'ing for a group of young teenagers as that's kind of creepy/pathetic considering I have friends my own age.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I need to go back to school and re-learn what I know about words.

Could be a good idea. I mean, you say (a) DMs should use in-game rape threats if they are appropriate then you say (b) you have never said other DMs should us in-game rape threats.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

1) If it was appropriate. 2) See 1.

So:

Manchu: Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM?
DarkTraveler777: If it was appropriate.

Manchu: Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?
DarkTraveler777: If it was appropriate.

Please let me know if I have misinterpreted your comment "See 1."

 stanman wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Being a father, this kind of a response from someone else's uncle to my son would make me pretty nervous.

So you'd rather he gave your son a rape talk? Put yourself in the DM's position. A group of your nephew's friends are at your house playing D&D and rape comes up. Roll for initiative.
Oh, and before you quote the revision to my story that you used earlier, you are in the hot seat. You have 8 sets of teenage eyeballs on you looking for a reaction and you have seconds to respond. Quick, what is your response? Do you end the game? Do you give a lecture to a bunch of kids about a topic that their parents likely haven't discussed with them? Is penalizing the player while moving on with the game really such an outrageous solution? I am asking, as a DM is it? You aren't these kids' guardian. For the sake of argument let's say you pull your fictitious nephew aside after the session and explain why rape is bad, mmmkay, but in the moment what do you do?

If you are honest with yourself you'd see what an incredibly difficult position the DM was in, and likely want to extricate yourself from the situation as quickly as possible with the least amount of fallout possible.

If I were in that situation I'd wonder why I a grown man were hanging out and DM'ing for a group of young teenagers as that's kind of creepy/pathetic considering I have friends my own age.

While not relevant, thank you for making that point. That was an issue back then. He knew he was under scrutiny for hosting a game for teenagers, and so why, oh why, would he want to expound on rape during a game?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I need to go back to school and re-learn what I know about words.

Could be a good idea. I mean, you say (a) DMs should use in-game rape threats if they are appropriate then you say (b) you have never said other DMs should us in-game rape threats.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

1) If it was appropriate. 2) See 1.

So:

Manchu: Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM?
DarkTraveler777: If it was appropriate.

Manchu: Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?
DarkTraveler777: If it was appropriate.

Please let me know if I have misinterpreted your comment "See 1."

I didn't say should. I am saying the DM could, if appropriate. I am not advocating it unless it is the the only solution that will resonate with the player.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Because you are ignoring one of the main thrusts of my argument which is the response of the DM should be situational to the group.

I don't mean to ignore it. In fact, I think we should highlight it because it comes down to a very big difference between you and me:

You think it is sometimes appropriate for a DM to use in-game rape threats.

I think that is never appropriate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stanman wrote:
If I were in that situation I'd wonder why I a grown man were hanging out and DM'ing for a group of young teenagers as that's kind of creepy/pathetic considering I have friends my own age.

Now that strikes me as a bit of a low blow. We don't know what the deal was. Maybe the nephew said, hey uncle how about you teach us how to play D&D. I would be okay teaching my nephew and his friends how to play D&D if I knew their parents were okay with it. I mean, you can't just assume this guy was creepy and pathetic just because he is DMing a game for some teenagers.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Because you are ignoring one of the main thrusts of my argument which is the response of the DM should be situational to the group.

I don't mean to ignore it. In fact, I think we should highlight it because it comes down to a very big difference between you and me:

You think it is sometimes appropriate for a DM to use in-game rape threats.

I think that is never appropriate.

Wonderful. Kudos to you. You are clearly a better human being than me, or the DM or anyone from my story. Better, oh Sith Lord?*




*Just so that isn't misconstrued as an attack, it is a play on the Sith only deal in absolutes quote.


And I am off to my second job. I will pick up any response tomorrow.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
You are clearly a better human being than me

The sarcasm kind of falls flat when you consider the subject:

 Manchu wrote:
You think it is sometimes appropriate for a DM to use in-game rape threats.

I think that is never appropriate.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
*Just so that isn't misconstrued as an attack, it is a play on the Sith only deal in absolutes quote.

Don't worry dude, I understand this is a tricky subject and the medium itself can be an obstacle. I am not taking any of this personally and I also mean no personal offense to you. At the end of the day, this is just a storm of electrons. It's all discussion and in the realm of the intellect.

 Manchu wrote:
Now that strikes me as a bit of a low blow. We don't know what the deal was. Maybe the nephew said, hey uncle how about you teach us how to play D&D. I would be okay teaching my nephew and his friends how to play D&D if I knew their parents were okay with it. I mean, you can't just assume this guy was creepy and pathetic just because he is DMing a game for some teenagers.

And how long is that going to continue to go over well when the parents get wind of a game being run by an adult which includes violence, much less elements of sex and rape. I don't think too many parents would find a grown man talking about fantasy rape with a group of kids particularly appealing, especially if it's in the context of they themselves haven't even discussed sex with their own kids.

You might have good intentions of just entertaining the kids with a game but it can quickly head into major creeper territory as viewed by the parents or other people on the outside as they'll likely be getting any info second hand which always bodes so well....


Parents get mighty uppity even when discussion of sex is being presented in a strictly technical form like sex ed at schools, for some reason they lose their minds when it's injected into games and discussion of fantasy especially when it's done by strangers.

Whoa...came into this a bit late.


Can we not agree that subject matters that are possibly appropriate for adults are sometimes NOT appropriate for children? I'm pretty sure that rape fits that category.


Game of Thrones has plenty of rape in it, and yet it's pretty mainstream. An adult who includes rape in a game of D&D is just as guilty as an adult who allows their child to watch Game of Thrones, just that D&D has a bit of a nerdy stigma about it, whereas GoT is very much mainstream. The article feels like a hit piece.

What a horribly written article. I got through the first four paragraphs, and the only thing I could find that even closely resembled a thesis was that it's important to understand the history of mysogony and racism in gaming.

Tell us what your fetching point is!

After thinking about it, while I would personally be uncomfortable with people in any D&D game I'm taking part in raping NPCs, I also realise that there are certain groups of people; both male and female, who have rape fantasies and really, what takes place between consenting adults in the privacy of their own home/etc is really their own business.

tl;dr not my cup of tea but if the entire party agrees and are adults, then I guess it's their own freedom to choose whether or not to describe rape in D&D sessions.

Sounds like a few too many D&D groups took a direct page from this:

 stanman wrote:
Sounds like a few too many D&D groups took a direct page from this:

My version is better

I see your Conan musical and raise

Skip to 1:10 for the lamentations chorus

This seems a good place to leave this video:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb-sCNfE0bM

There's another youtube video titled "Farador D and D" that's a bit graphic to link here, but puts a spin on the rape conversation here. Just be warned, there is a bit of language and graphic content.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just a question: did people in the 80's saying D&D will turn kids to Satan play D&D?

Yes. How the feth don't you know this?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Did the people in the 90's saying video games will turn kids to mass murderers play video games?

Again, yes. Seriously, are you going to pretend you don't know anything about these?

I remain convinced, Hybrid, that you are a completely 100% aware of the nonsense you're spewing, proving beyond all shadow of a doubt that you are a monumental troll.

Oh, and "GJW". That's cute. You and Peregrine come up with that yourselves?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just a question: did people in the 80's saying D&D will turn kids to Satan play D&D?

Yes. How the feth don't you know this?

I suspect "1980" is nearly 20 years before the average GWS customer was born.

Jesus, I feel old now.

 easysauce wrote:
so now pretend characters (who might be roleplaying as the evilist evidoers) who may or may not be pretend raping people, which may or not even be man on woman rape, is misogynist?

If you need to oppose something, you just use that m-word. It's the modern "race card". It works even better if you can somehow imply they're transphobic as well.

 easysauce wrote:
At what point do we call a spade a spade and recognize when we are tilting at windmills?

Phallic imagery! See? More misogyny.

 easysauce wrote:
People play RPGs to be in a fantasy land, its odd to get so worked up over fantasy rape, and not fantasy murder/slavery/theivery/ect."

But the fragile minds of the players! Can't they see how they're becoming tools of the patriarchy by indulging in such fantasy?

 Ouze wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just a question: did people in the 80's saying D&D will turn kids to Satan play D&D?

Yes. How the feth don't you know this?

I suspect "1980" is nearly 20 years before the average GWS customer was born.

Jesus, I feel old now.

It was 11 years before I was born (1991), I have NEVER played D&D nor had any particular interest in it until recently (I watch/listen to a lot of Acquisitions Incorporated). And yet I became aware of the stigma and moralising hysteria surrounding D&D by the time I was aged 10 or so, simply through media exposure (historical references in newspapers etc).

To not be aware of all the allegations of Satanism against D&D in the 80's is either monumental ignorance or blatant trolling. Given Hybrid's past behavior I'm leaning to the latter.

 Ouze wrote:
I suspect "1980" is nearly 20 years before the average GWS customer was born.

Jesus, I feel old now.

Uhh... don't remind me...

Regarding Satanism & D&D...

My parents are Christian...Once my Mom introduced me to Harry Potter by giving me book 1 "The Philosphers Stone". I enjoyed it so much that I borrowed my primary schools copy of book 2. But then my Mom became aware of the popular hysteria over the Harry Potter series and began to worry that Harry Potter would be a demonic influence (Magic and all that) so banned me from reading the book and enlisted the aid of my teacher (who attended our church and was a friend of my parents). I had to resort to hiding in the classroom during playtime and reading the book then. She also got me some BS evangelical Christian book about "Satan and Harry Potter".

True story.

My mom went from getting me interested in Harry Potter by gifting me the first book, to worrying about my immortal soul and getting my Christian teacher to spy on me in school to keep me pure. That was funny. Also I think I recall once my parents discussing magic with me, and I said I didn't believe in Witches and Demons. And they assured me that Witches and Demons do exist.


Suffice to say...I'm now an atheist.

Fifteen years before I was born.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
My parents are Christian...Once my Mom introduced me to Harry Potter by giving me book 1 "The Philosphers Stone". I enjoyed it so much that I borrowed my primary schools copy of book 2. But then my Mom became aware of the popular hysteria over the Harry Potter series and began to worry that Harry Potter would be a demonic influence so banned me from reading the book and enlisted the aid of my teacher (who attended our church and was a friend of my parents). I had to resort to hiding in the classroom during playtime and reading the book then. She also got me some BS evangelical Christian book about "Satan and Harry Potter".

True story.

My mom went from getting me interested in Harry Potter by gifting me the first book, to worrying about my immortal soul. That was funny.


Suffice to say...I'm now an atheist.

And here is a perfect example f why I can never be christian .

 Ouze wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just a question: did people in the 80's saying D&D will turn kids to Satan play D&D?

Yes. How the feth don't you know this?

I suspect "1980" is nearly 20 years before the average GWS customer was born.

Jesus, I feel old now.

That was my golden age of playing D and D. I often spoke with Tracy Hickman back during that time, when he managed a theatre in downtown Provo, and he had created some localy printed dungeons that he ran at the mall gamestore. One of my buds, Steve Marsh who had worked on the first Monster Manual, had worked with Gygax and was a regular in the campaigns we had. It was a great couple of years with nothing really to match those days since then for me.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Fifteen years before I was born.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
My parents are Christian...Once my Mom introduced me to Harry Potter by giving me book 1 "The Philosphers Stone". I enjoyed it so much that I borrowed my primary schools copy of book 2. But then my Mom became aware of the popular hysteria over the Harry Potter series and began to worry that Harry Potter would be a demonic influence so banned me from reading the book and enlisted the aid of my teacher (who attended our church and was a friend of my parents). I had to resort to hiding in the classroom during playtime and reading the book then. She also got me some BS evangelical Christian book about "Satan and Harry Potter".

True story.

My mom went from getting me interested in Harry Potter by gifting me the first book, to worrying about my immortal soul. That was funny.


Suffice to say...I'm now an atheist.

And here is a perfect example f why I can never be christian .

There was also a conversation once when I expressed my lack of belief in Demons, Magic and Witchcraft... and they responded with horror and assured me that Demons do exist and magic is Satanic...

Paradoxically my Dad is obsessed with Disney, Magic Kingdom and all.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And here is a perfect example f why I can never be christian .

I tried it once, when I chose to get baptized at 13. I quickly grew out of that phase after a year or two.

Don't confuse fundamentalists with christians...

 pretre wrote:
Don't confuse fundamentalists with christians...

My parents are far from fundamental.

They just have some really strange beliefs.

Many fundamentalists are Christians, not all Christians are fundamentalists.

I too was banned from role playing by my Christian father due to the fear it was demonic. I'm still Christian though. I recognize that like any other group of human beings there are some who have wonky ideas. I view those as reflective of the individually not the idea as a whole.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Just a question: did people in the 80's saying D&D will turn kids to Satan play D&D?

Yes. How the feth don't you know this?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Did the people in the 90's saying video games will turn kids to mass murderers play video games?

Again, yes. Seriously, are you going to pretend you don't know anything about these?

Hold up, he's not asking if people said this crap about D&D and video games.

He's asking if the people who said the crap actually played D&D and video games.