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I believes its permissible to deeptrike a building using the wwp

wwp "If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."

Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183

I could go on but theirs no point.

A building is a model so can go in reserve
(p.132 "Which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve.")
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army. p.112
"if a unit enter a building they immediately capture and claim that building"p.112

"moving into a building works the same as embarking and disembarking a vehicle" ..."all of the normal rules apply" p.110 bottom left hand pargraph
your combined unit and ic mounted in building makes it a unit because its then claimed.( this happens in reserve)
the 'combined reserve units' section brb p.135 right hand column allows the wwp carrying character to be embarked in reserve.

It then gains the deep strike rule from the wwp and the rest is history.



this may not have been an intended consequence but i think it is undeniably allowed under the rules.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617823.page

There are two more, but both link back to this one.

The short and skinny of it is:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.
- Fortification, one of many Rules with just that title but this one is just above Deployment Zones.

While the Reserve rule is written in the normal format of Models and Units, the above Rule makes it very clear that Fortifications have access to these very Rules. To deny them access to Reserves, because they are not Models and therefore they do not meet the requirement to be a Unit, would be exactly the same as stating they can not Deploy because the Standard Deployment Method only allows Units to be placed as part of Deployment. Of course, we state that Reserves are not a Deployment Rule but that would be some mighty fine hair-splitting worthy of Rule Lawyering at it's finest. Of course, it would raise all sorts of secondary questions, such as why use the word Deploy within the Rule and why it is found smack bang in the Rules discussing Deployment. It also lead to some very broken situations, such as what happens if the Fortification does not fit in the Deployment Zone from a Rule as Written perspective now it can't enter Reserves either.

Putting something into reserves is not deploying it.

So it does not have access to the reserve rules as they are for units only, and you do not deploy into reserve.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. " (Preparing for battle chapter, Reserves section, Preparing Reserves sub-section).

they are kept or held back in reserve, not deployed into reserve.

What you quoted only works for deploying the fortifications and does not work for keeping them into reserve.

buildings in 7th are treated as units
brb p.112 top of right hand column
"A the stat of the game all building that are taken as part of a a players army are 'claimed'."
"A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army."

buildings are units that's undeniable

We all ready had one on this. The answer is the same. No you cannot. If you do not deploy the building it is lost.

If you are talking about the preparing reserves section on page p.135 that only applies to things that cant be deployed in the initial deployment phase, and then have no means of getting onto the table but like a drop pod the building can be later deployed using the deep strike usr.

It is a 7th the deployment phase for them is in the preparing for battle section. U deploy them after deployment zones are set but before terrain. If you do not deploy them at this stage they are gone. You can choose to deploy them any where on the board. As neutral terran or what have you. But if they are not deployed then they are gone because buildings do not move and they do not have deep strike on them. You can argue all you want. We went over this less then 2 weeks ago. Good luck finding anyone to let you do it any other way. Thanks. If you are playing a pre set board you have the TO come move the terrain the minimal distance needed so you can deploy it.

They are deployed as other units
p.130 bottom left hand column.
"if a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using e the same deployment rules as the other models."
( it can be put in reserves if the mission allows)
(people often get this wrong and use the 6th edition rule for deploying building)

It is given the deep strike special rule buy the wwp so it it not destroyed because it can not deploy latter.

If they are considered as units, yes you can Deep Strike them using WWP.

I'm glad we finally found something nice for the WWP

AV14 DS No scatter fire dragons ? Atarimaeda !

The Reserve Rule is not a Deployment Rule.

While it is true that Fortifications are deployed using the same Deployment Rules as the rest of the Army, many people are assuming that Reserves are a Deployment Rule. The Rules for Reserves are actually found in the Mission section of the book, making them a Mission Rule, as it is entirely up to the Mission if we have access to Reserves or not. As they are not part of the default Rules for Deployment, the line that keeps getting quoted fails to grant Fortification access to these Rules and they do not have the ability to enter Reserves. That is only reserved for Units, and yes that pun was intended.

Claimed Buildings are a little more trickier as they do become full fledged Units, why they do not just make Buildings a Unit-Type is past my understanding, but there is a Timing issue to be addressed. Claimed Buildings only become Units at the Start of the Game, so one needs to proven that the Game has Started before placing Units into Reserve. There is some grounds for that, the book does show that Deployment and the Start of Game are linked without detailing how, but the same lack of detail makes it impossible to prove for sure that Reserves is after the Start of the Game. Made all the more difficult as the book has clauses like this, move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins, which suggest that Reserves are also done before before Buildings are Claimed.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/617823.page

Multiple pages on this very topic.

@ jinxdrgon: Just to be clear your argument against is based on the fact the phrase "the start of the game" is ambiguous?

It is reasonable point, But By your own admission this phrase is used inconstantly throughout the brb and has little meaning outside any particular context in which its used

therefore i don't believe the fact that it is a ambiguous phrase can be used for or against the argument.

@ Fireraven Thanks I just checked it out but that thread is so full of arguments based on 6th ed rules and off topic comments that it is not really helpful.

IMO if there was anything to be considered WRT game start, you could still place the fortification, Fire Dragons and Archon, and then WWP on T1, right ?

Then House rule it. At your house you can play how ever you like. But no one is Going to let you do it at any event that knows 40k. You wwp a bastion or a fortress on the the field there going to go wtf are you doing. Then quickly tell you to pack your stuff exit is that way.

Sunhero wrote:

"A the stat of the game all building that are taken as part of a a players army are 'claimed'."
"A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army."

Page 17. "before the game begins"
Examples are generating warlord traits and psychic powers.
These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.


IMO, if before deploying for battle is everything that is "Before the Game Begins" than anything that happens when you are deploying for battle cannot also be before the game.
Without any other reference to the start of the game, I'm inclined to believe that right after you generate powers and warlord traits, buildings become units and can be held in reserve.

Any other rule book references to the start of the game?

Sunhero,
Given that the argument of 'Buildings are Units' requires access to a Rule which has the 'at the Start of the Game' Terminology, it is vital to know when that occurs as part of the debate. Granted that the 'ambitious nature' makes it impossible to actually know, but that was the very point I was trying to make. In order to evoke the Claimed Building Rule to put a Unit into Reserve, it has to be proved that the Reserve Rule triggers after the Claimed Building Rule has triggered. Without the ability to prove that point, the entire speculation lacks 'Rule as Written' support and we will always default to 'illegal' when that occurs.

I would also like to remind you of the existence of Rules which relate to a period between Reserves and Start of Game, which means there is a lot more Rule as Written support for the concept that Reserves happens prior to the Game officially beginning.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt,
Take a look at this Rule then:
Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’)....
- Aerial Support, Flyers

We all agree that the phrase the "start of the game" is used inconstantly, so this inconstancy can not be used against the idea that a building can be put into reserve.

Sunhero wrote:
We all agree that the phrase the "start of the game" is used inconstantly, so this inconstancy can not be used against the idea that a building can be put into reserve.

But the rules for deployment still make Deep Striking a fortification impossible.

Putting something into reserves is not deploying it.

So it does not have access to the reserve rules as they are for units only, and you do not deploy into reserve.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. " (Preparing for battle chapter, Reserves section, Preparing Reserves sub-section).

Ergo Buildings can not Deep Strike.

Sunhero, I very much disagree:
Knowing if the Claimed Building Rule triggers before or after Reserves is sort of vital to your concept, so we can not simply overlook this lack of evidence....

If you want to claim that the Start of the Game occurs before any Units are placed into Reserves then you will need to provide me with proof of concept. If the only evidence to support the concept is 'we do not know when the Start of the Game occurs' then I will point to that very statement as the reason why Buildings can not be Reserved. This is a game where permission needs to be granted before an action can be taken, so lacking any Rule that grants clear and defined permission means that action would be illegal by default.

The fact that buildings are units cannot be reasonably under dispute it says so multiple times in the brb p.110 p.112 p.130 p.134

If they are units then they can use the reserve special rule.

Incorrect as the Rule is:
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling players army.
Prior to the Start of Game there are no Claimed Buildings....

Sunhero wrote:
The fact that buildings are units cannot be reasonably under dispute it says so multiple times in the brb p.112 p.130 p.134

If they are units then they can use the reserve special rule.

Except they do not have access to the Deep Strike rule.

They are considered units when they deploy, but units that go into reserve are kept or held back in reserve, not deployed into reserve.

Fortifications are "set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."

They can not be held in reserve because they are not units for the purposes of reserve, only for deployment.

p.132 "which ever method you use models" (not units) "must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve." these means that even if a building is not a unit prior to "the start of the game" when ever that may be.
It can still go into reserve.

the goal posts on this are for ever shifting.

I have demonstrated that that a building can be put into reserve, and I its undeniable that it can then be given the deep strike rule by the wwp I really don't think there can much else said.

I under stand that the idea of a deep striking building is ridiculous, and would completely understand any one who refused to allow it. Ether in friendly or competitive play but I think it is undeniably allowed under the rules.

Units (Or models) can go into reserves.

However...

Fortifications are not Models.

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (Models and units chapter, Other Important Information section).

What unit type is a fortification?

I'm not going to argue with you that a building bought in your army list is neither a model or a unit that is madness it it must have a model designation surely you must concede that or are you just playing devils advocate .

The Rules define what a Model is, so why must we concede?

Building have a Terrain type, not a Unit type.

Consider this too:
Why would Fortifications need a Rule telling us to Deploy them with the rest of the Army, if they are already Models in the Army and would Deploy regardless?

Fireraven wrote:
You wwp a bastion or a fortress on the the field there going to go wtf are you doing.

"Being awesome."

I just got a great idea instead of the table flip lets do the deep striking fortress that is sand filled. I bet you could stuff that bad boy with enough play sand to get it at least 8-9 plds. and instead of deploying it like normal I'm gonna deep strike it every game because for now on I'm going to run dark eldar as an ally. I think after the first time i drop that sucker on a table and knock ever model over the TO will take notice. O then I'm going to roll for scatter since that is the model I'm gonna drop from 12 inches from the board. And in I scatter I'm gonna hulk smash that bad boy right in the middle of the table. What you guys think ?
Ill never lose a game from that day forward. I will forever be 0-0-1 every match. My new count will be models destroyed. Terrain will get a separate counting system.

My Bad WWP does not scatter will have to just make sure I place it securely the first time after all it should not move.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Rules define what a Model is, so why must we concede?

That is so irrelevant.

The building is treated as a vehicle when affected by a special rule like WWP.

You can hold buildings in reserve, A fortification taken as part of an army, they use the same deployment rules as other models. As stated in the deployment rules, models must deploy or be held in reserves. Claimed or not, is irrelevant, when the game begins, is irrelevant. It's a fortification in your army, it deploys like a model in your army and may be placed in reserves like the models in your army have the choice of doing.

ergo the OP is correct.