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 Sheokronath wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Weren't the clones mentally unstable and insane though? And not in the way that Kharn is insane, talking jibbering wreck of a man insane due to not having the connection of a soul/presence in the warp.

Abbaddon did not best a Horus in his prime, or just one without combat experience, he essentially defeated a 10 ft man with the mental age of a 3 year old irish setter.

A recent black library novel dealt with the Horus clone and I remember it being pretty perfect, it was even wearing horus' armour and was fighting with his mace worldbreaker. I don't remember how much dialogue It had but it was lucid enough to recognise Abbadon. It certainly wasn't insane in a childish way.

On topic, I really don't want a 40k end times, there's so much room for apocalyptic events already. Plus 40k is a setting, not a really drawn out story. I'd be happy if it stayed all 2 minutes to midnight forever.

Hmm, what? Memories? That's not how clones work.

I voted yes


And then the empera woke up. it was all a bad dream. now we can play 30k again

Yeah for sure. Not necessarily to lead into the kind of shakeup that Fantasy is rumoured to receive - I think 40k as a game is fine as it is - but simply to really progress the lore in a brutally effective fashion.

I honestly don't think it would work for 40k, the Imperium just has too much going for it.

I mean think about it logically, the Orks butcher each other as soon as they get left alone for a bit, and all of the other aliens will happily fight each other too. Eldar will fight Necrons, Nids will fight anything, and I suppose they cant eat Necrons but they will smash them if they want to eat a planet they are on. Chaos forces are humies, so they scrap all of the above, and each other, with all of the spite and intrgiue and jostling for power that goes on, any of Abbadons top generals would snatch power away from him if they could.

The Imperium is literally the only properly unified force, it isn't perfect, but they work together, and all of the BL publications have made it even worse because they have fleshed everything out. Many of the Imperial forces are essentially, proper old fashioned good guys. From Gaunts Ghosts through to all of the Space Marines books, we read about numerous chapters (over a thousand) and millions of Guard regiments packed with noble, honorable, selfless heros who fight and die for the citizenry and each other.

Don't you think the Imperium has it too good? Countless enemies to be sure, but the teeming trillions of Guard, Sisters, Inquisition, Space Marines, Custodians, Arbites, fething hell, even all the civilians and gangers on worlds would pick up a lasgun and fight for their species if they were going to get scranned by Tyrnaids.

I just think it works with fantasy because its just one world. In the vast cosmos of the 40k fluff, it all seems a bit too complex to have a similar story. I suppose if they thought of some way to unify all of the Imperiums enemies something similar could work, but it would still have to involve a colossal galaxy spanning battle across a million worlds, I don't think it would make any sense.

And then there are planet killers.. wouldn't the whole thing be fought in space? Surely almost every race has the technology to just blow planets up without bothering to touch a foot to the surface?

Anyway, for myriad reasons I don't think it would work like in fantasy, I'd like to see them have a go though.

 mattyrm wrote:
I honestly don't think it would work for 40k, the Imperium just has too much going for it.

I mean think about it logically, the Orks butcher each other as soon as they get left alone for a bit, and all of the other aliens will happily fight each other too. Eldar will fight Necrons, Nids will fight anything, and I suppose they cant eat Necrons but they will smash them if they want to eat a planet they are on. Chaos forces are humies, so they scrap all of the above, and each other, with all of the spite and intrgiue and jostling for power that goes on, any of Abbadons top generals would snatch power away from him if they could.

The Imperium is literally the only properly unified force, it isn't perfect, but they work together, and all of the BL publications have made it even worse because they have fleshed everything out. Many of the Imperial forces are essentially, proper old fashioned good guys. From Gaunts Ghosts through to all of the Space Marines books, we read about numerous chapters (over a thousand) and millions of Guard regiments packed with noble, honorable, selfless heros who fight and die for the citizenry and each other.

Don't you think the Imperium has it too good? Countless enemies to be sure, but the teeming trillions of Guard, Sisters, Inquisition, Space Marines, Custodians, Arbites, fething hell, even all the civilians and gangers on worlds would pick up a lasgun and fight for their species if they were going to get scranned by Tyrnaids.

I just think it works with fantasy because its just one world. In the vast cosmos of the 40k fluff, it all seems a bit too complex to have a similar story. I suppose if they thought of some way to unify all of the Imperiums enemies something similar could work, but it would still have to involve a colossal galaxy spanning battle across a million worlds, I don't think it would make any sense.

And then there are planet killers.. wouldn't the whole thing be fought in space? Surely almost every race has the technology to just blow planets up without bothering to touch a foot to the surface?

Anyway, for myriad reasons I don't think it would work like in fantasy, I'd like to see them have a go though.

You come up with a lot of good reason as to why the galaxy as a whole don't need changing, which I agree to. You say some weird things though, like "we-need-an-entire-third-of-our-secret-agency-to-keep-down-sedition-and-revolution-Imperium" being the most unified force in the galaxy, ignoring the Tau Empire, who's strength come from utter unity

What I feel a lot of people here assume is, that your own view of the 40K universe makes advancement of the galaxy impossible because, e.g. you believe that the Nids will eat everything no matter what, that the Emperor will be ressurected or so on, and many of you argue and give sources to why that should happen. Thing is that nothing "has" to happen in 40K - The outcome of ANY given conflict in the 40K universe is decided by the author and by Games Workshop, so, e.g the war for Baal isn't decided upon who would win logically, but what the point with the story was. The winner hasn't fought to win, he's been chosen to win. Therefor, of the story was advanced, only GW could decide upon who would do what and what would happen with that particular part of the faction. This isn't specifically aimed at you, it's just a general thing I've seen in this thread

That's the point, actually - Arguing that the factions in general should be changed like with the Elves in Fantasy isn't a thing that can happen, just as you've said, but minor advancements for, at least, a part of certain factions would be nice, and can be done. Personally, I'd like to see them focus on characters, and evolution of characters in the game, because, at the moment, we've got an excess of characters who aren't really that large a part of the fluff, but are just... There. The likes of Abaddon are mocked, because they never achieve anything, and don't relate themselves to the universe they inhabit. I stated it elsewhere in this thread, but if you allowed to kill an important character like Kell or even Creed, he suddenly gets a lot more interesting, because he has a relation to the universe who's supposed to fear him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

Which still doesn't justify asinine claims. An argument from ignorance is a terrible claim to make, be it fictional or real.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

Which still doesn't justify asinine claims. An argument from ignorance is a terrible claim to make, be it fictional or real.

Exalted. You may be an hole sometimes, but that is one of the best quotes I have ever read, and seems quite wise. Mind if I quote you?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

Which still doesn't justify asinine claims. An argument from ignorance is a terrible claim to make, be it fictional or real.

Exalted. You may be an hole sometimes, but that is one of the best quotes I have ever read, and seems quite wise. Mind if I quote you?

Well it's not like I trademark my own words, so yeah, go ahead.

Never really got the idea of asking permission for quoting another's post in their sig.

I don't know, just seems polite, I guess.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hezus Christ Wyzilla, stop spouting random crap about 'Nids like you know everything in this entirely fictional universe, where even we the real people don't know everything inside the fictional universe.
As put very well by a GW employee- "If we were to simply have BL write fluff for the unknown 2nd and 11th Legions, then they would be one fixed thing, whereas if we leave it unknown to even us people in the real universe, then it can be any random theory, and surely that is on balance better." And I have to agree with him.
(See, I'm using the enter button, so calm down)
We only know what the Imperium knows, for the most part of 40k, and the Imperium knows barely anything about most things, including 'nids.
So please stop making huge putdowns of other people's ideas like you're the Hive Mind itself and know everything about the 'nids and how none of it can be true.

I'll continue to make "putdowns" when people spout asinine bs that makes less sense then the Dawn of War tie-in novels with backflipping temrinators. If you state something without even bothering to think of the implications, you have every right to be hit with a counterargument.

Especially when people spout random bs that isn't even supported anywhere in the fluff, and don't even bother to use citations or quotes to back up any of their word. Especially something as absurd as "half a galaxy's worth of nids". That's probably the most insane fan theory I've read on this entire forum.

But of course if you want to support his argument with quotes and/or citations of material backing up the Tyranids having decillions of biomass, you're welcome to.

Fine, I admit defeat.

I'm not saying he's right, he probably isn't but we don't know the full scale of the hive mind and all its tyrannids, that's all I'm basically getting at.

Which still doesn't justify asinine claims. An argument from ignorance is a terrible claim to make, be it fictional or real.

Fine, I admit defeat.

Emperor dies, the psychic scream of his death awakens Robot Girlyman from stasis and calls home and invigorates the other primarchs (including those from the warp). Girlyman is upset with what the Imperium has become and starts a civil war to try to dethrone the Lords of Terra. The other primarchs return to their chapters, some changed by the Warp, others barely knowing a few days have passed since they left. Some stick with the Imperium, others join Girlyman.

The Tau find themselves in civil war as Farsight begins a campaign against the Ethereals after he discovers the truth of the greater good.

Chaos is reinvigorated by the Emperor's death and begins a new black crusade towards Terra.

Without the Astronomicon acting as a beacon for the Tyranid fleets, the individual hive fleets begin fighting against each-other as well as rampaging across the galaxy.

All this infighting feeds into the Warp, and creates a new Chaos god Malice. Malice's birth erupts into realspace and the black crusade finds itself interrupted by infighting more than usual and even Abaddon has issues reigning in his warriors but his crusade marches onwards.


It'd be a minor step forward really, but it would add some new potential for shifting things about and revealing a few things. The return of the Primarchs and an Imperium civil war would be really interesting.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Emperor dies, the psychic scream of his death awakens Robot Girlyman from stasis and calls home and invigorates the other primarchs (including those from the warp). Girlyman is upset with what the Imperium has become and starts a civil war to try to dethrone the Lords of Terra. The other primarchs return to their chapters, some changed by the Warp, others barely knowing a few days have passed since they left. Some stick with the Imperium, others join Girlyman.

The Tau find themselves in civil war as Farsight begins a campaign against the Ethereals after he discovers the truth of the greater good.

Chaos is reinvigorated by the Emperor's death and begins a new black crusade towards Terra.

Without the Astronomicon acting as a beacon for the Tyranid fleets, the individual hive fleets begin fighting against each-other as well as rampaging across the galaxy.

All this infighting feeds into the Warp, and creates a new Chaos god Malice. Malice's birth erupts into realspace and the black crusade finds itself interrupted by infighting more than usual and even Abaddon has issues reigning in his warriors but his crusade marches onwards.


It'd be a minor step forward really, but it would add some new potential for shifting things about and revealing a few things. The return of the Primarchs and an Imperium civil war would be really interesting.

The Ultramarines as sudden bad guys/saviours of the Imperium would be a really interesting new character trait of the Marines... Think about it. Now you have to choose between the traditional, dogmatic Imperium of Man, who are the founders of Humanity in the stars, or the upstart Ultramar Empire, who, while progressive and less ruthless, are ruled interely by post-human beings directly...

Would do the same thing Farsight did for Tau - Make up some contrast!

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Emperor dies, the psychic scream of his death awakens Robot Girlyman from stasis and calls home and invigorates the other primarchs (including those from the warp). Girlyman is upset with what the Imperium has become and starts a civil war to try to dethrone the Lords of Terra. The other primarchs return to their chapters, some changed by the Warp, others barely knowing a few days have passed since they left. Some stick with the Imperium, others join Girlyman.

The Tau find themselves in civil war as Farsight begins a campaign against the Ethereals after he discovers the truth of the greater good.

Chaos is reinvigorated by the Emperor's death and begins a new black crusade towards Terra.

Without the Astronomicon acting as a beacon for the Tyranid fleets, the individual hive fleets begin fighting against each-other as well as rampaging across the galaxy.

All this infighting feeds into the Warp, and creates a new Chaos god Malice. Malice's birth erupts into realspace and the black crusade finds itself interrupted by infighting more than usual and even Abaddon has issues reigning in his warriors but his crusade marches onwards.


It'd be a minor step forward really, but it would add some new potential for shifting things about and revealing a few things. The return of the Primarchs and an Imperium civil war would be really interesting.

The Ultramarines as sudden bad guys/saviours of the Imperium would be a really interesting new character trait of the Marines... Think about it. Now you have to choose between the traditional, dogmatic Imperium of Man, who are the founders of Humanity in the stars, or the upstart Ultramar Empire, who, while progressive and less ruthless, are ruled interely by post-human beings directly...

Would do the same thing Farsight did for Tau - Make up some contrast!

That's what I'm saying, it doesn't necessarily ruin anything and just opens up more possibilities. I also think Girlyman is more inclined to think he believes he knows the Emperor's vision and how unaligned the Imperial Faith is with the Imperial Truth. It'd also create rifts where various sub-sections would join either side as well. The Ecclesiarchy obviously joins up with the High Lords and whatever Primarchs join them, but maybe subsections believe Girlyman is right and join him against them.

Tau getting some contrast would be nice too. They've really been pushing the mind control/pheromones thing in recent editions to make them more bad-guy-ish and I really like it.

The big issue is replacing the Astronomicon, but could just go with the Emperor's death scream echoes in the warp and creates a lingering effect similar to the astronomicon still and that'd leave things open for a time to find a solution.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Emperor dies, the psychic scream of his death awakens Robot Girlyman from stasis and calls home and invigorates the other primarchs (including those from the warp). Girlyman is upset with what the Imperium has become and starts a civil war to try to dethrone the Lords of Terra. The other primarchs return to their chapters, some changed by the Warp, others barely knowing a few days have passed since they left. Some stick with the Imperium, others join Girlyman.

The Tau find themselves in civil war as Farsight begins a campaign against the Ethereals after he discovers the truth of the greater good.

Chaos is reinvigorated by the Emperor's death and begins a new black crusade towards Terra.

Without the Astronomicon acting as a beacon for the Tyranid fleets, the individual hive fleets begin fighting against each-other as well as rampaging across the galaxy.

All this infighting feeds into the Warp, and creates a new Chaos god Malice. Malice's birth erupts into realspace and the black crusade finds itself interrupted by infighting more than usual and even Abaddon has issues reigning in his warriors but his crusade marches onwards.


It'd be a minor step forward really, but it would add some new potential for shifting things about and revealing a few things. The return of the Primarchs and an Imperium civil war would be really interesting.

The Ultramarines as sudden bad guys/saviours of the Imperium would be a really interesting new character trait of the Marines... Think about it. Now you have to choose between the traditional, dogmatic Imperium of Man, who are the founders of Humanity in the stars, or the upstart Ultramar Empire, who, while progressive and less ruthless, are ruled interely by post-human beings directly...

Would do the same thing Farsight did for Tau - Make up some contrast!

That's what I'm saying, it doesn't necessarily ruin anything and just opens up more possibilities. I also think Girlyman is more inclined to think he believes he knows the Emperor's vision and how unaligned the Imperial Faith is with the Imperial Truth. It'd also create rifts where various sub-sections would join either side as well. The Ecclesiarchy obviously joins up with the High Lords and whatever Primarchs join them, but maybe subsections believe Girlyman is right and join him against them.

Tau getting some contrast would be nice too. They've really been pushing the mind control/pheromones thing in recent editions to make them more bad-guy-ish and I really like it.

The big issue is replacing the Astronomicon, but could just go with the Emperor's death scream echoes in the warp and creates a lingering effect similar to the astronomicon still and that'd leave things open for a time to find a solution.

Well, the Emps don't need to die right now... He can wait. In fact, any change to his state would properly be a bit... Well, excessive, I think.

I also want some more grit to the Tau, in both models and fluff. One of my examples from earlier in this thread was, that Aun'va (who are otherwise as exciting as a stale piece of bread) would be assassinated, and that Shadowsun takes over afterwards, as the Empire now need a main figure, and the brunt of the pheremone thing was gone. She would then be able to rouse the entire Tau Empire to truly go to war against the horrors of the galaxy, leaving only the Ethereals who will have their pheremone organ removed, if that be with force or not.

Oh, and a few of the upper-levels of the Tau Empire realises that Aun'va was killed by a miniature mono-molecular shuriken. Uuuuh, implications.

First off, I voted a big whopping no, because as grimdarky as it is and as open as things are, I like it the way it is. I like that things are revealed slowly, albeit very slowly. For instance, If you like a character from the black library, theres a good chance hell show up again (sometimes even if hes dead) in some form or another, given the time for new characters, stories, etc to be published. I think that revealing "the ending" all at once, or ever really, would essentially ruin all suspense, and certainly make the 40K universe much less thought provoking and interesting.
Just my two teef.
But, so long as we're speculating, whats to say that the Ultramarines wouldn't set up their own nice little empire after the fall (or even due to some other extenuating circumstances)? It nearly happened before during the heresy, so there's no reason to think it wouldnt happen again. Besides, I always wanted another humie faction in 40K. Personally, I always thought itd be cool if some kind of crusade era colonies still existed and were governing themselves in the present.

 Jollydevil wrote:
First off, I voted a big whopping no, because as grimdarky as it is and as open as things are, I like it the way it is. I like that things are revealed slowly, albeit very slowly. For instance, If you like a character from the black library, theres a good chance hell show up again (sometimes even if hes dead) in some form or another, given the time for new characters, stories, etc to be published. I think that revealing "the ending" all at once, or ever really, would essentially ruin all suspense, and certainly make the 40K universe much less thought provoking and interesting.
Just my two teef.
But, so long as we're speculating, whats to say that the Ultramarines wouldn't set up their own nice little empire after the fall (or even due to some other extenuating circumstances)? It nearly happened before during the heresy, so there's no reason to think it wouldnt happen again. Besides, I always wanted another humie faction in 40K. Personally, I always thought itd be cool if some kind of crusade era colonies still existed and were governing themselves in the present.

In some sources its said that there's nearly a thousand independent human worlds for every one imperial, usually its because they aren't considered valuable enough to the Imperium to conquer, but a lot of them just haven't been found yet.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
First off, I voted a big whopping no, because as grimdarky as it is and as open as things are, I like it the way it is. I like that things are revealed slowly, albeit very slowly. For instance, If you like a character from the black library, theres a good chance hell show up again (sometimes even if hes dead) in some form or another, given the time for new characters, stories, etc to be published. I think that revealing "the ending" all at once, or ever really, would essentially ruin all suspense, and certainly make the 40K universe much less thought provoking and interesting.
Just my two teef.
But, so long as we're speculating, whats to say that the Ultramarines wouldn't set up their own nice little empire after the fall (or even due to some other extenuating circumstances)? It nearly happened before during the heresy, so there's no reason to think it wouldnt happen again. Besides, I always wanted another humie faction in 40K. Personally, I always thought itd be cool if some kind of crusade era colonies still existed and were governing themselves in the present.

In some sources its said that there's nearly a thousand independent human worlds for every one imperial, usually its because they aren't considered valuable enough to the Imperium to conquer, but a lot of them just haven't been found yet.

And I suppose they never will be. However, thats not to say theyre all still independent.. While most may never be quite big enough to actually challenge the might of the Imperium, there have to be some out there worthy of note. Or at least that's my belief.

 Jollydevil wrote:
First off, I voted a big whopping no, because as grimdarky as it is and as open as things are, I like it the way it is. I like that things are revealed slowly, albeit very slowly. For instance, If you like a character from the black library, theres a good chance hell show up again (sometimes even if hes dead) in some form or another, given the time for new characters, stories, etc to be published. I think that revealing "the ending" all at once, or ever really, would essentially ruin all suspense, and certainly make the 40K universe much less thought provoking and interesting.
Just my two teef.
But, so long as we're speculating, whats to say that the Ultramarines wouldn't set up their own nice little empire after the fall (or even due to some other extenuating circumstances)? It nearly happened before during the heresy, so there's no reason to think it wouldnt happen again. Besides, I always wanted another humie faction in 40K. Personally, I always thought itd be cool if some kind of crusade era colonies still existed and were governing themselves in the present.

Ehhh. Well To each their own.

I think the whole idea of a universal ending everyone likes is a fantasy. Because no matter what you do you will never appease everyone.


I would like to see them move on and say that the end times were not actually end times but a precusor to something worse. Maybe a new chaos god that is trying to send everything into chaos, even the chaos gods. Maybe there is confirmation of an evil threat within mars.

But I usually point to dark lord Seanron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor_-_A_Continuation_of_the_40K_Universe_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron

The Death of the Emperor is a fascinating look and one that I usually believe the best direction GW could possibly go.

Though sadly Seanron has not written anything else for it in quite sometime.


I like to believe that universe would change drastically it would allow for more people to have their own stories and expand upon it. I mean the gaxaly is so big that even if terra were to be destroyed yes it would hurt the imperium but it wouldn't cripple them.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
First off, I voted a big whopping no, because as grimdarky as it is and as open as things are, I like it the way it is. I like that things are revealed slowly, albeit very slowly. For instance, If you like a character from the black library, theres a good chance hell show up again (sometimes even if hes dead) in some form or another, given the time for new characters, stories, etc to be published. I think that revealing "the ending" all at once, or ever really, would essentially ruin all suspense, and certainly make the 40K universe much less thought provoking and interesting.
Just my two teef.
But, so long as we're speculating, whats to say that the Ultramarines wouldn't set up their own nice little empire after the fall (or even due to some other extenuating circumstances)? It nearly happened before during the heresy, so there's no reason to think it wouldnt happen again. Besides, I always wanted another humie faction in 40K. Personally, I always thought itd be cool if some kind of crusade era colonies still existed and were governing themselves in the present.

Ehhh. Well To each their own.

I think the whole idea of a universal ending everyone likes is a fantasy. Because no matter what you do you will never appease everyone.


I would like to see them move on and say that the end times were not actually end times but a precusor to something worse. Maybe a new chaos god that is trying to send everything into chaos, even the chaos gods. Maybe there is confirmation of an evil threat within mars.

But I usually point to dark lord Seanron.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Death_of_The_Emperor_-_A_Continuation_of_the_40K_Universe_by_Dark_Lord_Seanron

The Death of the Emperor is a fascinating look and one that I usually believe the best direction GW could possibly go.

Though sadly Seanron has not written anything else for it in quite sometime.


I like to believe that universe would change drastically it would allow for more people to have their own stories and expand upon it. I mean the gaxaly is so big that even if terra were to be destroyed yes it would hurt the imperium but it wouldn't cripple them.

I think people are overestimating how much change is necessary. I think even a small step forward would be enough to really propel things and open up a lot of doors without closing tons of them. I think the problem is people look at End Times and see what the rumors say are coming for Fantasy with the world shattering and all that jazz and are way too worried that they'd remove 40k factions or screw up everything (to be fair, it is GW.)

I just think a nice little hop forward with a few major things that open up some civil wars and more inter-faction diversity would be amazing.

I think people are overestimating how much change is necessary. I think even a small step forward would be enough to really propel things and open up a lot of doors without closing tons of them. I think the problem is people look at End Times and see what the rumors say are coming for Fantasy with the world shattering and all that jazz and are way too worried that they'd remove 40k factions or screw up everything (to be fair, it is GW.)

I just think a nice little hop forward with a few major things that open up some civil wars and more inter-faction diversity would be amazing.

I think that too. I don't think it will be as earth shattering as people think. I mean the imperium is brought together with the faith of the emperor if he dies and terra is lost the imperium will continue. The imperium was created by the emperor to be the final stage of humanity. To be the thing that created order in the gaxaly.

The imperium would only fracture, but it still would be strong it would not fall apart as many would believe, it would just react slower than it usually could. It would take another thousand years for the imperium to decay if the emperor were to die. And I am placing my bets on ultramar and the space marine chapters getting together to ensure that humanity survives. This would mean consodliation of resources and making sacrifices. Which the imperium would be fine with. But it would mean a much slower and less powerful imperium, but a more interesting one. One that will use its resources far better than the current one.

Bottom line for me: no. All they've done so far is to kill off characters and gimp factions so they can streamline their product line.

While it might be a smart business decision for an underperforming product line, the variety and color of factions was one of the draws of WFB.

The other draw was that WFB was LESS grimdark than 40K. I liked the heroism with a chance of victory as opposed to a hopeless struggle against overwhelming odds. The End Times by definition takes the world in a grimmer, darker direction. If I wanted that I'd go 40K (which I do, but I can only take dystopia for so long).

So for me the answer is no, on two counts.

My two teef.

No, because it'd become even more marine-centric. Just look at the garbage being shat out for 30k.

 Melissia wrote:
No, because it'd become even more marine-centric. Just look at the garbage being shat out for 30k.

Who says it would?

Maybe its a mix of both. All sides of the imerpium dissolving the need for space marines being central but not the main bit.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, because it'd become even more marine-centric. Just look at the garbage being shat out for 30k.

Who says it would?

Maybe its a mix of both. All sides of the imerpium dissolving the need for space marines being central but not the main bit.

Space Marines will always be the largest part of 40K because theyre the most popular and therefore generate the most income for GW. If the end times comes, it would make sense for GW to publicize Space Marines even further, to get even more people playing them.

 Jollydevil wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, because it'd become even more marine-centric. Just look at the garbage being shat out for 30k.

Who says it would?

Maybe its a mix of both. All sides of the imerpium dissolving the need for space marines being central but not the main bit.

Space Marines will always be the largest part of 40K because theyre the most popular and therefore generate the most income for GW. If the end times comes, it would make sense for GW to publicize Space Marines even further, to get even more people playing them.

Its also because it is one of gws oldest lines that they have. Also because the most amount of lore goes to the space marines.

Which happens. I mean its not like the space marines are administrative geniuses. (Because they aren't) They would still need the imperium's ordo's to help.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Emperor dies, the psychic scream of his death awakens Robot Girlyman from stasis and calls home and invigorates the other primarchs (including those from the warp). Girlyman is upset with what the Imperium has become and starts a civil war to try to dethrone the Lords of Terra. The other primarchs return to their chapters, some changed by the Warp, others barely knowing a few days have passed since they left. Some stick with the Imperium, others join Girlyman.

The Tau find themselves in civil war as Farsight begins a campaign against the Ethereals after he discovers the truth of the greater good.

Chaos is reinvigorated by the Emperor's death and begins a new black crusade towards Terra.

Without the Astronomicon acting as a beacon for the Tyranid fleets, the individual hive fleets begin fighting against each-other as well as rampaging across the galaxy.

All this infighting feeds into the Warp, and creates a new Chaos god Malice. Malice's birth erupts into realspace and the black crusade finds itself interrupted by infighting more than usual and even Abaddon has issues reigning in his warriors but his crusade marches onwards.


It'd be a minor step forward really, but it would add some new potential for shifting things about and revealing a few things. The return of the Primarchs and an Imperium civil war would be really interesting.

This. I didn't even think about Malice but that would definitely bring a whole new dynamic to Chaos. Same with dividing the Imperium. I can dig it.

30k is amazing.

I'd willingly allow every current marine dex to die if it means people would be more open to 30k.

I've been thinking of this idea for a while, but here's what I've come up with.

-Chaos "wins". The Emperor dies and ascends to the state of a new Chaos God (or order, irony at its best). With the astronomicon no longer spreading the light of the Emperor through the warp, and the Emperor no longer holding back the eye, the warp spreads through the majority of the Milky Way and consumes all human held space. The only places left untouched are the Ghoul Stars and the Galactic East.

- Because of this, the Imperium completely collapses and humanity is plunged into a new age of Old Night- only this time in the warp. Everything breaks down, and their core logistics cease to exist.

- The human worlds (the majority of which are in the new massive Eye of Terror) enter a Feudal state of existence reminiscent of Medieval Europe. They continue to eek out an existence in the warp and rely on the protection of the Daemons of the actual God Emperor for protection. The Astartes, Soriatas, Inquisition, and Mechanicus begin to seize complete control over worlds or even entire sectors to secure power in the new hellish landscape. The Sisters begin to resemble a monastic order while the Astartes continue to evolve more and more into a state resembling knights- only masters of themselves now. The Mechanicum become powerful merchant lords whom everyone panders to in hope of favors or supplly lines, while the Inquisition goes completely off the deep end with their entire purpose rendered mute. Some flee to the Galactic East where the Ultramarines are attempting to re-assemble the Legion, others begin to erode away in the warp.

- The Tau meanwhile suffer a similar implosion when Commander Farsight discovers that the Ethereals have been brainwashing their entire species for eons now, and spreads the information with everyone who will believe him. The Tau enter a state of civil war with Farsight's forces attempting to kill off the entire Ethereal Caste and liberate his species from the brainwashing rule of the Ethereals.

- Orks continue to Ork and barely notice that they're in the warp now, only they get even scarier as Gork and Mork begin to truly form in the warp, and are no longer just a myth. Ghazskull grows further in size and even greater numbers of Orks are rallying to his call.

- With the warp overtaking much of the galaxy, the Eldar have been completely cut off from obtaining new spirit stones from the Maiden Worlds located in the Eye. In desperation Eldrad calls for every Craftworld to rally to Ulthwe and begin the gestation of Ynnead, the Eldar god of Death. Biel-Tan however spurns this order, and the entire Craftworld embarks on a crusade into the original Eye of Terror to seize an entire Maiden World's worth of Tears.

And I'm going to take a break before finishing this.

But essentially, everything gets fethed over and virtually everyone has ashes to cry over.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I've been thinking of this idea for a while, but here's what I've come up with.

-Chaos "wins". The Emperor dies and ascends to the state of a new Chaos God (or order, irony at its best). With the astronomicon no longer spreading the light of the Emperor through the warp, and the Emperor no longer holding back the eye, the warp spreads through the majority of the Milky Way and consumes all human held space. The only places left untouched are the Ghoul Stars and the Galactic East.

- Because of this, the Imperium completely collapses and humanity is plunged into a new age of Old Night- only this time in the warp. Everything breaks down, and their core logistics cease to exist.

- The human worlds (the majority of which are in the new massive Eye of Terror) enter a Feudal state of existence reminiscent of Medieval Europe. They continue to eek out an existence in the warp and rely on the protection of the Daemons of the actual God Emperor for protection. The Astartes, Soriatas, Inquisition, and Mechanicus begin to seize complete control over worlds or even entire sectors to secure power in the new hellish landscape. The Sisters begin to resemble a monastic order while the Astartes continue to evolve more and more into a state resembling knights- only masters of themselves now. The Mechanicum become powerful merchant lords whom everyone panders to in hope of favors or supplly lines, while the Inquisition goes completely off the deep end with their entire purpose rendered mute. Some flee to the Galactic East where the Ultramarines are attempting to re-assemble the Legion, others begin to erode away in the warp.

- The Tau meanwhile suffer a similar implosion when Commander Farsight discovers that the Ethereals have been brainwashing their entire species for eons now, and spreads the information with everyone who will believe him. The Tau enter a state of civil war with Farsight's forces attempting to kill off the entire Ethereal Caste and liberate his species from the brainwashing rule of the Ethereals.

- Orks continue to Ork and barely notice that they're in the warp now, only they get even scarier as Gork and Mork begin to truly form in the warp, and are no longer just a myth. Ghazskull grows further in size and even greater numbers of Orks are rallying to his call.

- With the warp overtaking much of the galaxy, the Eldar have been completely cut off from obtaining new spirit stones from the Maiden Worlds located in the Eye. In desperation Eldrad calls for every Craftworld to rally to Ulthwe and begin the gestation of Ynnead, the Eldar god of Death. Biel-Tan however spurns this order, and the entire Craftworld embarks on a crusade into the original Eye of Terror to seize an entire Maiden World's worth of Tears.

And I'm going to take a break before finishing this.

But essentially, everything gets fethed over and virtually everyone has ashes to cry over.

Or there might be something else that happens.