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AegisGrimm wrote:Hyperbole maybe, but theres already griping about a project by a reputable maker of a great game, with a great pedigree, which is already funded, about whether the stretch goals are good enough. And I'm not the only one thinking like my earlier post.

RoninXiC wrote:No KS project has to give any kind of discount.

That's not the idea of Kickstarter.

The idea is to get enough people interested in spending some money in advance to fund a project.

That's all what it is about.

solkan wrote:
So you've never seen any of the "Okay, this is all we're planning on doing. Thanks for backing, see everyone in 30 days" terrain production Kickstarter projects?
Or the small "Yeah, we saw what happened to Palladium" or "Yeah, we've seen Mantic run their business, we don't want to go there" miniature production Kickstarters?

Sometimes a business just wants to have a small success instead of a two million dollar failure.

That, that, and that.

Cergorach wrote:It's not strange to ask with a commercial endeavor "What's in it for me?"

You get some nice minis and a wargame written by Andy Chambers. More than that, you get the opportunity to get some nice minis and a wargame written by Andy Chambers, and maybe some tiny grain of satisfaction from the fact you're a Helpy Helperton.

I know that for these big asks, to make plastic moulds and whatnot, it'd probably help to jump through some hoops to ease backers' minds and massage the total upwards; but some of the usual methods seem play on and definitely feed - as NTRabbit says - an unattractive sense of entitlement. Greed, even. Oh yes. It's locked backers and sellers into an odd, not-entirely-sustainable way of doing things, to the point that overstretched, poorly-fulfilled campaigns litter the landscape, that some businesses are trapped in kickstarter itself, and that we've got apologists popping up to defend it.

I'm accused of treating all KS threads the same. Nope, only threads for these big ones, because the stretch-goal, freebie, fill-yer-boots reactions are so predictable.

And while I'm not so naive to think that the wargaming market runs on happy thoughts alone or that lead mountains spring up out of nowhere, it irritates me to see that outside GW, the hobby can still be so... consumerist. It even irritates me to use that word - people can do what they like with their own money, I ain't holdin' a gun to yer head; but that mere fact doesn't automatically lead to happy outcomes, or a healthy direction for parts of the hobby.
As Aegis said, people are already moaning about stretch goals and maybe pulling out, for this KS. As usual. Some folk getting cold feet perhaps won't kill a well-funded campaign like this, and maybe that affects their decision; but they're still contributing their small bit, not to the success of the campaign but to it's failure. They're still passing on the message that they don't care if any given new game or range of minis lives or dies, and pushing creators onto the KS roundabout, if they don't bleed out for them.

And then when they do bleed out and have nothing left to work with, the backers still moan and whinge that they're not doing it right. Bah!

And no, maybe they're not doing it right and haven't fully worked out their costs, but the clamour for the arcane system of stretches, add-ons and freebies can't help the poor sods if they already have that much trouble with it.

Just... be happy for a new game and that you helped bring it about, can't you?

I asked nicely before, but please take the general "consumers and Kickstarter" discussion to Dakka Discussions, and let's focus specifically on the Dropfleet Kickstarter here.

It's not fair to weigh down Dropfleet's thread with this general issue. It is certainly a topic worth discussing... just not worth derailing this thread for.

So, please Dropfleet specific discussion from now on - thanks!

Really excited for this. Very interesting idea to have it in low orbit.

The paper mats seem like a decent stopgap until proper ones are released. Seems odd to see them selling for 15 pounds though. Are they nicer than I'm imagining? Are there existing examples to compare to?

The BoW videos were done using space mats, right? Does that work, or was it just for demonstration purposes (since all the mats seem to be of high altitude views of landscapes)?

 RiTides wrote:
The BoW videos were done using space mats, right? Does that work, or was it just for demonstration purposes (since all the mats seem to be of high altitude views of landscapes)?

Just for demo purposes, they had to use asteroids as token objectives. It would work in a real game although there may well be difficulties with objectives.

Incidentally;



The ground combat rules are still being finalised

Could you elaborate on "ground combat rules"? Not just normal Dropzone Commander right, but something specific to Dropfleet only?

 RiTides wrote:
Could you elaborate on "ground combat rules"? Not just normal Dropzone Commander right, but something specific to Dropfleet only?

One of the major objectives in Dropfleet is capturing ground locations by landing troops and fighting off enemy ground forces. Exactly how this will work isn't known yet but its something that I find quite interesting.

These ground objectives are 'clusters' split into multiple 'sectors', each sector can be garrisoned and attacked separately. The small frigate sized Strike Carriers carry elite forces (significantly better than standard forces, over twice as good apparently) and can land 1 a turn while mother ships carry standard forces but can land 4 a turn. capitol ships can also bombard planets, quite ineffectually for the most part although specialised bombardment ships are apparently extremely good at blowing things up and denying objectives.

The exact mechanics of ground combar is still being finalised but will probably involved modified dice rolls.

I wonder if they will make terrain, such as orbital defenses or ground based antiship weapons.

The one time I want to do a KS and I have no money BLEGH

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The one time I want to do a KS and I have no money BLEGH

Can you pledge £1.00 to gain access to the Pledge Manager.

I backed £60. Which is a lot more than i ususally spend on kickstarter. But since it seems like this campaign actually is about funding hard plastic and do not seem to go in to the usual overpromise/underdeliver direction I am willing to spend on something that will be delivered next year.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I wonder if they will make terrain, such as orbital defenses or ground based antiship weapons.

They already do!

 NTRabbit wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I wonder if they will make terrain, such as orbital defenses or ground based antiship weapons.

They already do!

45 dollars seems a bit steep for a piece of terrain.




What was that?

45 pounds??




Uh, terrain in scale with DFC, then.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I wonder if they will make terrain, such as orbital defenses or ground based antiship weapons.

They already do!

Yikes!

Aegis Orbital Defence Laser Scenery Pack

The Aegis ODL is a formidable N-4 class laser weapon, designed for static defence against enemy assets deployed from orbit or high atmosphere. While it can make an impact against smaller starships, its primary role is to strike at enemy dropship formations at extreme ranges, where it excels. Its slow traverse and massive size make it unwieldy for tactical use on the battlefield however, where it is vulnerable to close assault. The Aegis has been in service with the armies of humanity for over 200 years. It was in the process of being introduced across Earth and the Cradle Worlds at the time of the Scourge invasion, although unfortunately there were far too few operational to make much difference in the cataclysm. Today, the Aegis is still manufactured on Ferrum by the UCM and several installations are known to be functional and under the control of Scourge or Resistance forces on the Cradle Worlds. Whenever one of these mighty constructs is present on the battlefield its capture or destruction will almost always be a critical objective, since it is more than capable of erasing whole flotillas of dropships from the sky.

£45.00!

I hope the plastics help make all of this a bit less 'premium'...

It's a 20cmx20cm and 10cm tall resin piece, expensive but not outrageously so.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
45 dollars seems a bit steep for a piece of terrain.




What was that?

45 pounds??




Uh, terrain in scale with DFC, then.

Well, that particular laser is supposed to be the same size as the point defence guns on the frigate, so they'd end up being pretty small terrain pieces. Cheap though!

The sprues obviously come with extra weapons and parts, so I guess that's how I'll roll.

I've got a big Mantic Terrain Laser and some Eisenkern Crusader laser arms that will do just fine as orbital defense weaponry.

Heck, I've got some Dollar Store guns that might fit the bill, too, although they won't remind me nearly so much of awkward Skype moments as the Aegis does.

That laser is not for, or in scale with, Dropfleet. If they want ground terrain elements they're going to need to be Very small, given the scale of the maps. I'd love some orbital terrain, too

 RiTides wrote:
That laser is not for, or in scale with, Dropfleet. If they want ground terrain elements they're going to need to be Very small, given the scale of the maps. I'd love some orbital terrain, too

Given the nature of the game I think that some sort of orbital defense structures are highly likely to surface at some point.

First ever Kickstarter for me love the verse they've created and of course, Andy Chambers, so duh.

Just dipped my toe in (rulebook and starter fleet), but keen to see how this develops.

I do expect more of a discount then I can get at my local webstore, so that's a significant discount on MSRP. Why do I expect this? I'm giving money 6+ months in advance to a publisher to make a product that they'll eventually sell for a profit, to me they are selling it with way more profit then when they sell it to a retailer through a distributor. When selling through a distributor Hawk get's about 40% of the MSRP, with KS they keep about 90% of the KS MSRP. So I don't expect a 60% discount, but meeting halfway is not unreasonable (35% discount). With the current stretch goals we're not there yet, when we hit 500k, we're more then there. Depending on where we exactly wind up, I'll keep backing or not.I do want them to do well, but this is not a oneway street nor a charity or a donation.

Huge discounts is what ruins KS right now for smaller companies, cause they never can compete with the discounts CMON or others can give.
KS is actually investing into a product to support it and not ordering it at a discount. It says there right on the front page of KS.


The numbers you made up are the ones gonzos like GW can ask for, but not the ones smaller companies can ask for. It´s on average 5-10% less than your numbers. Also in the best case they keep 80-75% of the KS-money cause KS and tax have to be payed for. And the KS-money does not only provide for the production of the KS-units but also for the ones that go out to the LGS soon after.

Then there are the costs per race. I do have quite accurate first-hand numbers for the DZC-starter and it cost about 200k to finance it. so per race you can assume that 100k is the average they need to do each race. The low numbers we see with many other mini-KS are faux, cause you will never find a company doing them for you at such a low price. They simply hope that the hype is strong enough to reach the true costs and quite some companies had to cancel their KS because of this. I.e. only after we reach 400K they are actually making money. Until then they are adding their own funds to it.

> CMON
Well, I have seen nearly all miniatures they produced and while they are nice, there are galaxies between the level of quality and detail Hawk and the one CMON gives us. And don´t get me started about rules, which are often the weak spot of CMON.


And they really got floored, they assumed that they would hit the current level in 3 weeks and this would have given them some time to prepare more stuff. Also from preparing successfull KS myself I do know how much work goes already into it beforheand. The first two days after it goes life are kind of the first time you can take the lady out after several weeks of not being available to her. So please let them breath...

Regarding value:
I am working in the gaming business and know of most games how much the minis cost in production and I actually consider the DFC-KS quite a good deal. At first I did not want to support it, but after calculating numbers I pledged.

Again:

 RiTides wrote:
I asked nicely before, but please take the general "consumers and Kickstarter" discussion to Dakka Discussions, and let's focus specifically on the Dropfleet Kickstarter here.

It's not fair to weigh down Dropfleet's thread with this general issue. It is certainly a topic worth discussing... just not worth derailing this thread for.

So, please Dropfleet specific discussion from now on - thanks!

The plan on doing additional terrain since they don´t want to have an empty plain where the one who shoots luckier wins:
So expect some interesting terrain-stuff in the future.

Also don´t forget that we have approx 3 levels and that some ships can only operate at certain levels.


Regarding the Orbital defense laser: That thing is quite huge and massive, has a gate tha can be flipped open and the laser can be swiveled and turned around.



You see that gate? An average UCM-tank fits between the two "mandibles". It is for DZC not DFC.
That thing is btw, the same gun you can see in the dozens on the sides of the New Orleans class.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The plan on doing additional terrain since they don´t want to have an empty plain where the one who shoots luckier wins:

There will never be an 'open plain' in DFC due to have to shooting rules work. Apparently the only 'terrain' will be spacial anomalies of some kind (not entirely sure what that means).

That was just en exlpaination for what they want to do to differentiate the geam from the usual space/sea-battle with few scenery in between.

And there will be quite some terrain, but as with DZC it will take some time to be released.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
45 dollars seems a bit steep for a piece of terrain.
What was that?
45 pounds??

It's certainly big enough to beat someone to death with. I'm continually tempted to order it from mini market and I'm pretty much hoping that all the DZC terrain is on sale on MM's black friday sale so I can snap it all up.

In for Captain+ This is going to lead to getting into Dropzone too.

I miss playing in Gothic/Epic campaigns.

Just put my ODL on the scale and including mods and magnets it is close to 500gr.

I don't know how deep in to go, perhaps I should check out the BoW videos.

Basically if you want a standalone spaceship game to play, go for the starter set.

You're pretty much guaranteed to get more play out of that than, for example, the Star Wars: Armada Boxed Set.

I handled playing the Star Wars Armada starter games maybe 4 times before being bored out of my skull.

The Dropzone Commander starter game on the other hand? I'm pretty sure I've played it at least 15 times now and I still haven't got a full handle on its tactics.


However, if you want a fully fledged UCM / Scourge fleet, that's going to lead on to tournament forces, go for the captain level.

If you want PHR or shaltari, go for Lieutenant, then bolt-ons, I'd say.

Captain won't be a full fleet any more than multiple DzC starters would be able to comprise a full (effective) army. But I do think 2 starters will be a great basis for a fleet - just know you're going to need to add their later offerings to it when the game releases.