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 Asmodas wrote:

 Doomaflatchi wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:
Seriously, though, as long as the Shadowseer isn't Mastery Level 1, she is going to be a boss.

No, you fool!! You jinxed it!!!

Seriously though, if the Shadowseer is Mastery Level 1 I will cry. Just straight up bawl. The current Psychic phase rules in 40k are such that no Mastery Level 1 psyker can reliably get a power off; they only exist to be taken en masse and buff your dice pool for the guys who are actually casting things (like Warlocks with Farseers, for example). I honestly expect them to be Mastery Level 2, which is still just barely sufficient - with one ML2 Shadowseer per squad, I could reliably get off one maybe two powers per turn, but only if my opponent wasn't fielding a Farseer Council or the like with a fistfull of counterspell dice.

That's why you bring your own Farseers!

I'd be quite shocked if Shadowseers are ML2, or if they are for them to be Independent characters (as opposed to characters that can only join troupes, ala warlocks). I'd want to be wrong, but tbh it would be so easily abused I just don't see it. Add 2 farseers or 1 Farseer and 5 spirit seers, and some crazy shenanigans start happening. I'll be right on the edge of that shenanigan-wagon if they do turn out to be ML2, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 pretre wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

It doesn't.

Currently, the lack of an HQ restricts the ability to field any other detachment other than the special one in the WD.

edit: This is the same as Codex: Inq. They can't field a CAD or an Allied detachment now, iirc.

It's too bad, I would have liked to ally in some Harlies to my CWE. Maybe they'll get a formation or something.

But if somebody wants to play just Harlequins I don't see what deal is. There's nothing preventing you from taking multiples of everything they have on offer in the given detachment. Are people really that married to Objective Secured?

Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.

Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.

2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.

There's only like seven units in the codex... how were they going to distinguish themselves otherwise?

Sure the mandatory minimum slots isn't great if you want to attach them to another detachment like I wanted to, but three troupes is potentially like thirty harlequins if you max the units right? That's a good chunk of troops for a pure army.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.

Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.

2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.

If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.

All WD pics from ChaosFTW on BOLS




Codex: Harlequins


Limited Edition Codex


Cards


Detachment

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
I don't understand. How does the force organization chart that was posted limit the ability to field a pure Harlequins army? What is restrictive about it?

The fact that it has so many mandatory slots is what makes me rub my head, and the fact that once those slots are filled, you can't add any more to them without doubling them. It means that (aside from wargear options) all harlequin armies using this detachment are going to be nearly identical.

Ok, so lets assume that 2 Masques are the default for running a pure Harlequin force.
That gives you 6 troupes, of 5-12 models each.
You can either attach Starweavers to the squads, in which case they don't fill slots, or use them to fill your FA slots, which would give you 4 Starweavers.
You could also fill or partially fill those slots with Skyweaver squads, giving you anywhere from one squad of 2 Skyweavers to 4 squads of 6.
You have to have two Voidweavers, and can have up to 6 in two squadsof 3.
Finally you have 0-14 combinations of 1 Solitaire, multiple DJs and/or Seers.

I certainly appreciate that it's more restrictive than 'not at all restrictive' but there are still a lot of options for variety there given the limited unit options in the first place.

It sounds like there will be more detachments

 Asmodas wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.

Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.

2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.

If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.

Yeah, Skyweavers aren't mandatory at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not seeing any of those pics here Warhams.

It is interesting that Harlequins have no access to the Combined Arms or Allied Detatchments as they have no HQ.

Wondering about the Master Level of the Shadowseer. Are Harlequins the new Psychic Spam list?

The thing that works against Harlies that doesn't apply to Inq though is the high number of base units. As it stands, one can't simply run a single troupe in a Starweaver with a boss and be battle forged.

One can just chuck an Inquisitor and a few other bits (or just an Inq) alongside another force.

 plastictrees wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not seeing any of those pics here Warhams.

Okay, I will try to fix it. I can see them. Can someone else not see the pics?

 Asmodas wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah its 500pts of potential junk, and with the solitaire being unique what the hell are you going to fill the elite slots with? More shuriken cannons? Woooo friggin hoo.

Right now the dex is hanging on formations, relics, psychic powers (primaris mostly) and how it allies in with eldar and dark eldar. If it is limited to this detachment you need to spend 500pts on meh junk you might not even use. 2 wound T4 modelds with a limit of 6 per unit and a stupid high point cost isn't exactly exciting.

2+ wound ap2 river blades would sure make that solitaire closer to worth taking considering a tactical squad can drop it in a volley.

If you are referring to the bikes, you don't need to take them to use the detachment. The Starweaver transport is Fast Attack. I assume you will want transports for your Harlies, so just buy the transports as FA choices rather than Dedicated Transports. Problem solved. The only thing that is really off is the required Voidweaver. I don't understand why it's required, as I'd imagine CWE/DE might prefer to bring their own gunboats.

Yeah but still you are being forced to take options that aren't optimal or really of your choice, which is seemingly the next step in the GW pay to win scheme with the reduction of content and rules unless you pay up.

Minimum is 3x5 harlies for 285pts, 2 starweavers for 140 and a voidweaver for 75. That's a crap investment unless you dump even more points into a CC army with a few over priced haywire guns. Unless the psychic powers are amazing at protecting the troops and the relics give some actual bite or survivability this book just isn't that great from a gameplay stand point.

Warhams-77 wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not seeing any of those pics here Warhams.

Okay, I will try to fix it. I can see them. Can someone else not see the pics?

They are from here, Plastictrees. Can you see them?
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?51807-Codex-Harlequins-Rumor-Roundup!&p=476449&viewfull=1#post476449

Ah, my problem not yours. Looks like BoLs was added to my companies blocked list!

 plastictrees wrote:
Ah, my problem not yours. Looks like BoLs was added to my companies blocked list!

And who's fault was that, I wonder?

 Ravenous D wrote:
That's a crap investment unless you dump even more points into a CC army with a few over priced haywire guns. Unless the psychic powers are amazing at protecting the troops and the relics give some actual bite or survivability this book just isn't that great from a gameplay stand point.

Uh, yeah, if you don't want to play Harlequins (a CC army) then Harlequins probably aren't for you.

I really really hope that there are more detachments, i want to give GW money, but not if it's that detachment only. Formations might be alright, but you never know....

Dont think harlies will be for anybody with a crap detachment like that. Total of what? 3 starweavers, 18 skyweavers, 36 harlies, 3 voidweavers and 7 characters? Unless those powers and relics are ground breakingly awesome that's an incredibly gak army for over 2500pts.

Guard, marines, tau and eldar could shoot that off the map unless they have some mass invisibility power or access to incredible invulnerable boosts.

The point is they are a CC armies that will never get there, and even when they are there they wont have the numbers to do the damage. Really they only get is loads of haywire. They don't add to Eldar or Dark Eldar at all other then taking out a minimum of 500pts on "meh".

Strange that the title of the book is Codex Eldar: Harlequins.

Does this mean perhaps that it should be considered just an updated part of the regular eldar codex?

It has that one new detachment, but potentially you could just include all the new units as part of a regular eldar combined arms?

No other codex is named in that way - everything else is Blank - A Codex Blank Supplement or whathaveyou.

Intriguing!

I think you'll probably find its really Codex: Eldar Harlequins.

Because, you know, the Harlequins are all Eldar...

Don't try and second guess GW nonsense, it is normally exactly what it looks like.

Well I'm stoked whichever ways it goes. Codex works out - I'll play Harlis are part of my ECW army. If it really blows and doesn't - still happy as have a gak-tonne of awesome new figs for painting and converting. And as I've been waiting ages for these guys to get redone and plasticed; I'm more happy about that 2nd part than anything. That m'fing glass, she be half full, of crystal

It is similiar to Adeptus Astartes: Blood Angels

We should probably just stop freaking out over the detachment until we have more Codex details. Maybe this indeed is what we are stuck with if we want to play Harlequins, but I kind of doubt it. The WD description mentions benefits from using the Masque Detachment, which suggests that there are ways to field them without using a Masque.

I think it's fair to say that we are in general agreement here that the Masque detachment isn't something you will want to use every game, but with such a limited selection of units, the Codex almost has to include formations (just like every other Codex recently). If the Necron Codex is any guide, those formations may have a significant effect on how the Codex as a whole will be received.

I'm confident there will be something.

If you look at it from a sales viewpoint, the increase in fracturing factions into sub factions, mini dexes, allies etc could all be considered an effort to encourage people to branch out into other armies by making it much easier to add small amounts of models and then (they hope) grow from there.

The Masque detachment runs totally contrary to that, requiring a three figure investment to add the necessary models, I just don't see them investing in what is in essence a whole new factions worth of product and then setting it up in such a way to make it a tough decision to buy in.

Good point - that wouldn't make much sense at all...

Wondering if they will have a 'pick an elite as your HQ' option outside of the Masque?
It sounds like they have a uniquely diverse Warlord trait selection, maybe you can pick a new warlord in-game if yours is killed? Might make sense from a 'shifting role' perspective.
Anyway.
Deciding between pre-ordering 6 Star/Voidweavers or 8...

 Alpharius wrote:
Good point - that wouldn't make much sense at all...

Which is probably why requiring a big buy in for an army to conform to a rigid force org that is difficult to fit in with other armies is exactly what'll happen.

To 'Forge the Narrative', perhaps for:

Great Harlequin = Succubus // Phoenix Lord
Mimes = Wyches // Guardians

Harlequin Jetbikers (individual) = Reavers // Shining Spears
Mime Jetbikers = Hellions // Guardian Jetbikers

Thoughts?

Warhams-77 wrote:
It sounds like there will be more detachments

Obviously, we will have something like half a dozen different formations with special powers, so no worries here for me.