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 DarknessEternal wrote:

4) "Cegorach's jest"
1 Troupe, 1 unit of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:none

Special rules:
- pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn)


Only one unit in that formation can even Run....

Though tbf, if the Jetbikes could turboboost and then charge they'd have a giant threat range... 24+2D6", right? That would be pretty insane, especially with H&R to disengage in the enemy's turn and threaten a unit half a table away.

 Alpharius wrote:
Have you been a...Harlequin player for a long time now?

I'm an Ad Mech and Deathwatch player, and neither of those armies have ever had lists!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Good codex, but still rather clunky to try to add small Harlequin forces as allies. I would love to run just a min sized troupe with a HQ and transport alongside with my DE or GK, but I still can't. I have to run a troupe with a DJ and SS attached (who can't leave), which makes them too big to fit in a starweaver.

They could have solved all these problems by adding a single HQ choice, to let players run them as a CAD or Allied detachment, but no.

Why are we all still angry about this?

So it seems that Harlequins have their own unique Force Org chart that they have to follow (or may even have a number of them). A lot of people are sulking that this means they can never be used in Battleforged lists...

Actually, that's not right. They can. There is a precedent for forces existing that have their own 'unique' Force Org chart and are often used as allies for other forces. Thing is, they're mostly Imperial. Now we have an Eldar one.

Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Legion of the Damned

Did you forget about them?

I wouldn't be surprised if the one specific detachment chart we've seen turns out to be their 'alternative' chart and if there's rules for allying with them in the Codex that present something different.

After all, the rules for allying with Inquisition are different from their base chart....

So far we have seen a detachment chart, and 6 formations for Harlequins. All of them are rather inflexible about what you can take.
The smallest formation is a troupe + Shadowseer + Death Jester, who MUST join the unit and CANNOT leave it. The unit is now minimum 7 models, so no transport for them.
4 out of 6 formations require 1 or more jetbike units AND 1 or more voidweavers.
The only way to get a solitare is to also buy a Shadowseer and Death Jester. Annoying to have to pay the character tax to get the Solitare, but they can join units...oh wait, no they can't, they are all three single model units. Or to take the formation or detachment with a minimum of 3 troupes, 2 jetbike units, and a voidweaver.

Unless there is some other formation or detachment with a lot of 0+ options, it is still impossible to run say a troupe + character and a transport. Or a troupe and a single voidweaver squadron. Or a troupe and a solitare. The lack of a single entry for what could be a 3 wound troupe leader means that harlequins lack the flexibility of list creation of every other codex out there, limited to a handful of fixed builds. Think of Necrons could ONLY take the Decurion formations. Or if you wanted to run a small group of Tau, but could only take Fire Warriors as a 12 man unit with a Cadre Fireblade permenantly attached, so they would never fit in a devilfish.

For the lack of a single one page entry, a unit that could have been represented by a model from the Troupe box, Harlequins are shut out from countless full army builds or Allied detachments for other armies.

If I am wrong and there is a way to run them without a HQ but still have the flexibility of even the Allied detachment, then good. I'd gladly take being wrong as the cost to run Harlequins how I want in my army, rather than one of six/seven mostly pre-set forces

 DarknessEternal wrote:

4) "Cegorach's jest"
1 Troupe, 1 unit of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:none

Special rules:
- pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn)


Only one unit in that formation can even Run....

That's the jest!

Hollismason wrote:
For those that have seen the leaks has there been any mention of whether the codex has a "Decurion" like detachment? Like one made up of formations

Nop, only that one detachment we already known and 6 formations


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Good codex, but still rather clunky to try to add small Harlequin forces as allies. I would love to run just a min sized troupe with a HQ and transport alongside with my DE or GK, but I still can't. I have to run a troupe with a DJ and SS attached (who can't leave), which makes them too big to fit in a starweaver.

They could have solved all these problems by adding a single HQ choice, to let players run them as a CAD or Allied detachment, but no.

Why are we all still angry about this?

So it seems that Harlequins have their own unique Force Org chart that they have to follow (or may even have a number of them). A lot of people are sulking that this means they can never be used in Battleforged lists...

Actually, that's not right. They can. There is a precedent for forces existing that have their own 'unique' Force Org chart and are often used as allies for other forces. Thing is, they're mostly Imperial. Now we have an Eldar one.

Imperial Knights
Inquisition
Legion of the Damned

Did you forget about them?

I wouldn't be surprised if the one specific detachment chart we've seen turns out to be their 'alternative' chart and if there's rules for allying with them in the Codex that present something different.

After all, the rules for allying with Inquisition are different from their base chart....

There is a lot of confusion around this issue

The codex, like the SW or Orks ones for example, come with is own "custom" detacthment, the Harlquine Masque (the "3 troops, 2 fast attacks, 1 heave support + 7 optional elites" one we alredy known), and 6 formations (wich, remember, are detactments themself)

So you CAN field a battle forged army using any combination of the detacthment provided by the codex.

What you CAN'T do is using one of the detachments provided by the rulebook (CAD and Allies) because we have no HQs.

The only drawback here is that we have no access to Objective Secured or the small Allies detachment and that some of the detachments in the codex are quite big in terms of how many units you are forced to field (but if you are going with a full Harlequins army it don't see the problem)

You can, of course, build your army with multiple factions following the allies matrix. So, for example, you could put an Eldar Allies Detachment along side your Masque detachment or use the one of small Harlequins' formations (say, the 1-troupe +1 DJ + 1SS one) with your Eldar main army

Harlequins are a faction on their own, so you could do with them basically what you are already doing with other armies




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

4) "Cegorach's jest"
1 Troupe, 1 unit of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:none

Special rules:
- pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn)


Only one unit in that formation can even Run....

That's the jest!

Remember! Trools love to trolls each other not only the enemy!

So when the Death Jester and Shadowseer release that'll be the line "complete" I take it? There are no plans for more kits?

Yes, no more new kits for this realease

I hope for a bundle like the BA and Necron ones

Do we know if the Death Jester and Shadowseer are ICs or can otherwise be placed in troupes? Or do we have whole units of Jesters and Seers now?

I don't see how there can be entire units of them when it seems like they're not making a full kit for them, but rather a clampack figure like the Solitaire and likely priced the same. Unless they're expecting people to field a unit of $30 models all in the exact same pose on the exact same scenic base, but I don't think anyone would really do that.

mercury14 wrote:
Do we know if the Death Jester and Shadowseer are ICs or can otherwise be placed in troupes? Or do we have whole units of Jesters and Seers now?

Here you go:

# Shadowseer - 12 meltabombs

Wargear
- holosuit
- hallucinogen grenade launcher
- shurinken pistol
- miststave
- flipbelt

Special rules
- Fear
- Fleet
- Furious charge
- Hit&Run
- IC
- Psyker (ML 1) [phantasmancy, demonology (santic), telepathy]

options:

- ML2 (5 meltabombs)
- replace pistol with neuro-awesome-gun (2 meltabombs)
- haywire granades (1 meltabomb)
- can take 1 object from the black library goodies


# Death Jester - 12 meltabombs


Wargear
- holosuit
- shrieker cannon
- flipbelt

Special rules
- Fear
- Fleet
- Furious charge
- Hit&Run
- IC
- Precision shot
- Death is not enough: if the shrieker cannon kill 1 or more models in an enemy unit in the shooting phase must take a Morale check an the end of the phase with a -2LD malus. If the test is failed, you choose the direction the unit fallback to (in the following turns the fallback normally)

options:

- haywire granades (1 meltabomb)
- can take 1 object from the black library goodies

Thanks, do we know points? If you dont want to post them, a link or "costs a nickel more than a tac marine"?

mercury14 wrote:
Thanks, do we know points? If you dont want to post them, a link or "costs a nickel more than a tac marine"?

12 meltabombs each (post edited)

The Death Jester's morale test thing, does it require using the Shreiker ammo?

The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

Yeah and if you can break them and make them run toward you.. auto-kill by charge?

mercury14 wrote:

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

I'm pretty sure it has to be their table edge they run off of, but now I need to check.

 Garion wrote:
Yeah and if you can break them and make them run toward you.. auto-kill by charge?

Then assault then while they're falling back and give them -2Ld for the insta-sweep.

 Crazyterran wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

I'm pretty sure it has to be their table edge they run off of, but now I need to check.

No, you choose the direction. They fallback normally on from the next turn

 Garion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

I'm pretty sure it has to be their table edge they run off of, but now I need to check.

No, you choose the direction. They fallback normally on from the next turn

I get that, but I don't think you can make enemy models run off any board edge but their own.

How many wounds? Also, what is the death jester's ballistic skill?

Both have 2 Wounds, 3 Attacks, I7 and LD10, DJ is WS5/BS5, SS is WS6/BS4

 Redemption wrote:
Both have 2 Wounds, 3 Attacks, I7 and LD10, DJ is WS5/BS5, SS is WS6/BS4

Now that is what I'm talking about! Death jesters are gonna be brutal

Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

Binary wrote:
Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

Except you can't detach after DS, yes I mentioned it 3 pages ago.

I think it's a bit too expensive and too slow.

DJ's are going to be crazy good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Garion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

I'm pretty sure it has to be their table edge they run off of, but now I need to check.

No, you choose the direction. They fallback normally on from the next turn

I get that, but I don't think you can make enemy models run off any board edge but their own.

Why not? The rules just tell you which direction you flee under usual circumstances and what happens when you leave the battlefield.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Garion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Garion wrote:
The rule specifically say "Shreiker cannon", not ammo

That's an exceptionally good ability then that gives Harlequins a lot of battlefield control. Opponent lining up for linebreaker? Welp, they just ran off your own baseline.

I'm pretty sure it has to be their table edge they run off of, but now I need to check.

No, you choose the direction. They fallback normally on from the next turn

I get that, but I don't think you can make enemy models run off any board edge but their own.

Just looked it up, all it requires is that you come into contact with a table edge. Fair enough.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Binary wrote:
Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

Except you can't detach after DS, yes I mentioned it 3 pages ago.

I think it's a bit too expensive and too slow

Well, not a DE player. But is there a unit that consists of 3 models all those ICs could join? Because they might fit into a Raider which the CAN disembark after deepstrike. Just use that move to seperate.

Incubi

Goobi2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Binary wrote:
Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

Except you can't detach after DS, yes I mentioned it 3 pages ago.

I think it's a bit too expensive and too slow

Well, not a DE player. But is there a unit that consists of 3 models all those ICs could join? Because they might fit into a Raider which the CAN disembark after deepstrike. Just use that move to seperate.

Sure, I just hate stacking raiders with WWP's. It is silly expensive at that point and no longer worth it for a suicide unit IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Incubi

Ugh!

Why buy just a raider when you can also flush points down the toilette

 Red Corsair wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Binary wrote:
Has anyone else thought of this as a "my opponents army just went away" unit?

shadow seer with mask of secrets
DE Succubus with armour of misery WWP and archite glaive (master mime)
5 wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets (mimes)
5 iyanden spirit seers (all pulling telepathy) (harlequin warlocks)

Deep strike into the middle of his army, detach all the characters and psychic shriek the units away

Maybe throw in lelith for giggles too....

Except you can't detach after DS, yes I mentioned it 3 pages ago.

I think it's a bit too expensive and too slow

Well, not a DE player. But is there a unit that consists of 3 models all those ICs could join? Because they might fit into a Raider which the CAN disembark after deepstrike. Just use that move to seperate.

Sure, I just hate stacking raiders with WWP's. It is silly expensive at that point and no longer worth it for a suicide unit IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Incubi

Ugh!

Why buy just a raider when you can also flush points down the toilette

Just drop the iyanden spirit seers from 5 to 3.....