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 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Your comment is along the lines of 'why are people bailing if the boat is gonna sink anyway?' - and has much the same answer: Because they don't want the boat to sink.

No, you got that wrong. My point is that GW cares for nothing but money - as most companies. They don't care for and don't want customer feedback. If you buy a product, then you can complain all you want, but GW got your money. If you want them to change course, you need to stop giving them money. It's the only way. It's a binary decision. Buy. Don't buy. Buy = I like your product. Don't buy = I don't like your product.

What Sigvatr said. The only winning move is not to play.

 Bottle wrote:
If you buy at the rate you paint, the prices aren't too bad at all. To me a 2000 point army in 40k or WHFB is a goal to work towards. Not something you'd be purchasing at once.

I never bought whole armies at once, just individual boxes at a time. The prices were and are daft.

-

 Sigvatr wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Your comment is along the lines of 'why are people bailing if the boat is gonna sink anyway?' - and has much the same answer: Because they don't want the boat to sink.

No, you got that wrong. My point is that GW cares for nothing but money - as most companies. They don't care for and don't want customer feedback. If you buy a product, then you can complain all you want, but GW got your money. If you want them to change course, you need to stop giving them money. It's the only way. It's a binary decision. Buy. Don't buy. Buy = I like your product. Don't buy = I don't like your product.

Correct. I think I didn't buy a single box of GW products during 2014. I certainly could afford a box now and then, but totalling up how much I've already put into my army AND considering adding 500-1k of new things to it.. Yeah, not gonna happen.

 Bottle wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
If you buy at the rate you paint, the prices aren't too bad at all. To me a 2000 point army in 40k or WHFB is a goal to work towards. Not something you'd be purchasing at once.

This is kind of fallacious. Either the price is too high for the item in question, or it isn't, deferring the cost may make the purchase easier to manage, but has no bearing on if the price asked is disproportionate or not.

I see your point. However, often I feel people complain about the price after working out the total for a grand army that should take a considerable amount of time to collect and model in my opinion. When the price of an entire army is measured up against a longer period of time, it makes up a smaller percentage of the money earned over that time.

But that's the same argument!

If something is overpriced, it is irrelevant to how overpriced it is whether you can afford it or not, how deferring the cost makes it affordable when a one off purchase may not be or anything else. If you're ok with GW prices, that's your choice, but please don't try and argue that spreading the cost somehow makes them not overpriced.

It's fine to think GW are over-priced. Just from my experience of collecting a fantasy army this year I've not found the prices to be bad at all. I'm not into other miniature games, so the price of the models is compared with other things I buy on a regular basis, and in that context it doesn't seem so expensive at all.

But, again, that's a false comparison.

Comparing collecting a GW army to collecting vintage sports cars is going to make the GW army seem laughably cheap, but it isn't a valid comparison. The only valid comparison is to companies who make a similar product, for a similar purpose using similar production techniques.

On this basis, GW are frequently found wanting. Not necessarily on a simple cost basis, it is easy to find comparable products which cost the same or more on a model by model basis. But frequently if you take a wider perspective and look at a purchase's overall contribution to a workable, legal force in a game, or the number of needed boxes to make a unit that functions as it should, or at an optimal level, then GW are woefully poor value (Witch Elves probably being the most extreme example right now.)

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's a world of difference between catching the customer's eye and exchanging a greeting (simultaneously breaking the ice, communication wise, and letting them know you know they're there - useful from a security point of view and also encourages them to hang around if you're busy, rather than them feeling ignored and walk out) and jumping on them the moment they walk through the door.

Not doing the former or doing the latter would get you a bollocking from me if you were on any sales team I managed.

I'm not sure which one you're saying GW do, but in my experience it's definitely the latter.

Having said that I remember a few years ago now, my grandad took me to London and we went in the store down Oxford Street, and I saw one of the staff building one of the plastic stegadon and the manager let me buy one a week early because we'd traveled fairly far. So their customer service generally is pretty good, it's just as soon as you go in nowadays there's someone talking to you about what you're looking for and they always try and get you to buy more. It's almost impressive how they manage it seeing as they're all one man stores now...

I'm not generalising either way, just responding to the assertion that it was somehow "customer service" to jump on someone the moment they set foot in store, and making the point that there is a right and a wrong way of doing it, and that as someone with experience running teams of retail salespeople I definitely have strong views on how my staff should approach that initial contact.

However you personally might approach it, I've been trained at two separate national retail chains to do exactly what GW is being hanged for here. It's very standard retail chain customer service practice. I've even seen other wise competent sellers get moved to the stock room for NOT doing that.

Doesn't make it good service, just makes it an aggressive sales technique that some companies still employ that is demonstrably unpopular with a large number of people.

What the market will bear.

It's clearly not too high because people are still buying them.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Doesn't make it good service

Please point out where I said it was "good service". I said it was standard customer service, never said it was good service.

That said, that style does actually work to aid loss prevention, but while it's a good idea for large chains like Target and Barnes and Noble, it's not as good an idea for a tiny one man op.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Doesn't make it good service

Please point out where I said it was "good service". I said it was standard customer service, never said it was good service.

Whoa, where'd those goalposts go?

What point is there in any customer service if it isn't aspiring to be good?

It isn't customer service of any stripe, it's a sales technique, and a lousy one.

Azreal13 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Doesn't make it good service

Please point out where I said it was "good service". I said it was standard customer service, never said it was good service.

Whoa, where'd those goalposts go?

What point is there in any customer service if it isn't aspiring to be good?

It isn't customer service of any stripe, it's a sales technique, and a lousy one.

When you have a store the size of a 2-story complex, it's a customer service technique because there's not other way to greet everyone. Also:

Platuan4th wrote:

That said, that style does actually work to aid loss prevention, but while it's a good idea for large chains like Target and Barnes and Noble, it's not as good an idea for a tiny one man op.

Post-post edits.

You knew the risks.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Post-post edits.

You knew the risks.

Actually, hadn't seen you'd posted again.

My edits usually happen as soon as the page comes back up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What the market will bear.

It's clearly not too high because people are still buying them.

It's clearly too high when there are fewer and fewer sales.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Considering how inexpensive it is now to actually get a 3d Printer. Just having a few could be more viable than the current casting system that they use.

...

You really don't know anything about 3d printing. Cheap 3d printers have terrible quality, you might be able to make a vaguely space marine shaped lump of plastic with one but nobody is going to pay money for it. And considering how long it takes for that cheap 3d printer to make an object compared to the time required for injection molded plastic the 3d printed lump would have to be more expensive than GW's current models.

They use it for tons of other companies. Hasbro and several other companies do it as well. They don't simply rely on the injection molds they use a variety to spice it up a bit.

Err, lol? No company is selling mass-produced stuff with 3d printers, and 3d printing is not in any way a substitute for injection molding. You seem to be confusing the use of digital sculpting tools and 3d printing to create prototypes and master models with 3d printing the finished product that the customer buys.

-

 Bottle wrote:
Do GW have to base their pricing on that other other miniatures? I think everyone agrees that they seem to be trying to brand themselves as a luxury good. And that in of itself isn't a bad business move. In lots of other areas products successfully brand themselves as luxury (for example designer clothes).

They might be trying to do that, but they're failing miserably. GW's quality isn't any better than the cheaper companies, all they're doing is declaring "WERE A LUXURY BRAND!!!!!" and raising their prices.

I also want to ask if GW are selling the same product as their competitors or if taking their hobby stores into account differentiates them enough. When I buy a box of £15 Empire State Troopers, the fact that I have a store within 5 mins of my office where I can paint on my lunch break is a massive boon.

I don't think taking hobby stores into account favors GW. Their own retail stores are worse than independent stores, and really only appealing if you don't have a decent independent store in your area. And outside of the UK you probably don't have a GW store that close.

(Also, I really don't understand why anyone wants to paint in a GW store. You have to haul all of your stuff over there, you don't have an ideal space to work in, and you have tons of distractions. If I'm painting models I'm doing it at home, I'd never even consider taking my stuff to a GW store.)

This is what I was talking about. I don't have the Dark Elf army book but I imagine there's a (5+) in its unit size entry. Fielding a massive block of Witch Elves should be an end goal of a substantial modelling project. Plus, you only need 5 (im guessing) for a legal unit. At 2000 points 5 isn't going to contribute much, but at 500points or in Regiments of Renown it's a substantial part of a playing force.

Maybe it's different in WHFB than in 40k, but hardly anyone plays those tiny games. If you don't have a full 1500-2000 point army you're standing around watching games, not playing. So the fact that you can theoretically buy a single 5-model box and use it immediately doesn't help very much in the real world.

-

whatever the market clearing price is. Where MC=MR

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Do GW have to base their pricing on that other other miniatures? I think everyone agrees that they seem to be trying to brand themselves as a luxury good. And that in of itself isn't a bad business move. In lots of other areas products successfully brand themselves as luxury (for example designer clothes).

They might be trying to do that, but they're failing miserably. GW's quality isn't any better than the cheaper companies, all they're doing is declaring "WERE A LUXURY BRAND!!!!!" and raising their prices.

To highlight this, here is the problem with passing their goods off as luxury items: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629715.page

If this gentleman had bought an actual luxury good (like a rolex), he would be able to take it down to a pawn shop and get some immediate money from it. Most 'true' luxury goods have something like craftsmanship and/or materials in their price. GW sells very expensive cheap plastic. It looks cool (to some people), but it has no value other than hype in an otiose niche.

 Torga_DW wrote:
To highlight this, here is the problem with passing their goods off as luxury items: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/629715.page

To be fair, a big part of that thread is simply that used models, no matter how nice the original kit was, have limited value in a hobby where a big part of the appeal is building and painting your own unique army. Selling used stuff is kind of like trying to sell a broken rolex or stained piece of high-end clothing: sure, you might get a bit of money for it, but you're not going to get anywhere near full price. But NIB stuff keeps its value just fine because it hasn't been ruined yet.

If this gentleman had bought an actual luxury good (like a rolex), he would be able to take it down to a pawn shop and get some immediate money from it.

I don't think this is true at all. You can have plenty of luxury goods that don't fit the pawn shop market very well (for example, a $50 million private jet is clearly a luxury item, but good luck selling one to a pawn shop). A pawn shop wants stuff that they can sell to any random person who walks in the store, and miniatures of any kind are a niche-market item that only a few people would be interested in. So the pawn shop knows that even if the models are really nice and potentially worth decent money they're likely to collect dust on the shelf for a long time before a potential customer finally shows up.

A better way to identify luxury goods in the miniatures industry is to look at the quality relative to other miniatures. For example, FW is GW's luxury brand, and you clearly get a nicer product compared to "main" GW kits. On the other hand "main" GW fails this test. Relative to the rest of the model industry GW's plastic kits aren't really anything special, and the only advantage they have is a huge line of products to choose from. The only thing "luxury" about them is the high price.

That's entirely my point: If you're short on cash and need to pay the next rent, you will probably find a buyer for a private jet (although you may not like what you get for it). You need to sell something 40k at quick notice for a reasonable return? Much much harder. As you say, a pawn shop wants stuff that they can sell to any random person who walks in the store, and a rolex or jewellry or an apple-brand i-whatever will move much quicker than a limited edition space marine codex.

 Torga_DW wrote:
That's entirely my point: If you're short on cash and need to pay the next rent, you will probably find a buyer for a private jet (although you may not like what you get for it).

But notice that you've dropped the requirement of getting a reasonable return from this statement. Yes, you can sell a $50 million jet for $100 pretty easily (though not as easily as you might think, since the buyer would still pay taxes on the full $50 million value), but if you want to get a reasonable percentage of that $50 million value you might be waiting a while. That doesn't mean that the jet isn't a luxury item, it just means that there are few people who have the ability and desire to buy a $50 million jet on short notice. Difficulty in selling something doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a luxury item.

You need to sell something 40k at quick notice for a reasonable return? Much much harder. As you say, a pawn shop wants stuff that they can sell to any random person who walks in the store, and a rolex or jewellry or an apple-brand i-whatever will move much quicker than a limited edition space marine codex.

But that has very little to do with the inherent "luxuryness" of the product, it's about two things:

1) The market for miniatures of any kind has fewer people than the market for iThings. In fact, this kind of produces the opposite relationship between "luxury" and quick sale ability: selling an Ultramarines tactical squad for a reasonable price is probably going to be easier than selling a FW titan (the clear luxury product of the two) for a reasonable price, simply because there are more people who want Ultramarines tactical squads and have $20 available to buy one.

2) Any models that aren't NIB are damaged goods. Again, the fact that you might have trouble selling a broken iThing or the burned-up wreckage of the private jet you crashed doesn't mean that those things weren't luxury goods when you bought them.

And I'm not disputing the fact that GW selling their limited edition books at obscene prices is a case of screaming "THIS IS A LUXURY THING" and raising the price, I'm just disagreeing with your methods of determining what is and isn't a luxury item. Ease of selling something has very little to do with whether it's a luxury item, and isn't a useful test.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Your comment is along the lines of 'why are people bailing if the boat is gonna sink anyway?' - and has much the same answer: Because they don't want the boat to sink.

No, you got that wrong. My point is that GW cares for nothing but money - as most companies. They don't care for and don't want customer feedback. If you buy a product, then you can complain all you want, but GW got your money. If you want them to change course, you need to stop giving them money. It's the only way. It's a binary decision. Buy. Don't buy. Buy = I like your product. Don't buy = I don't like your product.

The problem is that's a stupid business model and because GW don't do any market research they will have no fething idea WHY people are no longer liking their products. If you like money and your business revolves around serving customers you can't afford to not care about customers. You have to care about them, if for no other reason than figuring out what the largest proportion of people want and are willing to pay in order to maximise the money they comes in.

That's why people are screaming about what they don't like trying to get GW to listen.

Exactly; the easiest way to make money from customers is to figure out what they want to give you money for and do that, which is much easier if you, y'know, ask them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

That's why people are screaming about what they don't like trying to get GW to listen.

I'd say people are screaming because they like the IP and the game in general, and would like to continue enjoying the 40k universe. Unfortunately, GW is making poor business decisions, that are diminishing the player base and even threatening the company's survival.

At least that's the case for me. I like 40k, but the business practice is horrid

 Peregrine wrote:
But notice that you've dropped the requirement of getting a reasonable return from this statement. Yes, you can sell a $50 million jet for $100 pretty easily (though not as easily as you might think, since the buyer would still pay taxes on the full $50 million value), but if you want to get a reasonable percentage of that $50 million value you might be waiting a while. That doesn't mean that the jet isn't a luxury item, it just means that there are few people who have the ability and desire to buy a $50 million jet on short notice. Difficulty in selling something doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a luxury item.

True, but I was also assuming an equivalent value in warhammer products. Someone who needs to sell a $50m private plane to make up their rent will do it easier than someone who needs to sell $50m worth of secondhand 40k products. There'll be far more people with the ability and desire to buy them (like charter companies) because it's a product with a value outside of hype.

 Peregrine wrote:
But that has very little to do with the inherent "luxuryness" of the product, it's about two things:

1) The market for miniatures of any kind has fewer people than the market for iThings. In fact, this kind of produces the opposite relationship between "luxury" and quick sale ability: selling an Ultramarines tactical squad for a reasonable price is probably going to be easier than selling a FW titan (the clear luxury product of the two) for a reasonable price, simply because there are more people who want Ultramarines tactical squads and have $20 available to buy one.

2) Any models that aren't NIB are damaged goods. Again, the fact that you might have trouble selling a broken iThing or the burned-up wreckage of the private jet you crashed doesn't mean that those things weren't luxury goods when you bought them.

And I'm not disputing the fact that GW selling their limited edition books at obscene prices is a case of screaming "THIS IS A LUXURY THING" and raising the price, I'm just disagreeing with your methods of determining what is and isn't a luxury item. Ease of selling something has very little to do with whether it's a luxury item, and isn't a useful test.

Sorry, i should have added 'premium' or 'quality' to luxury goods (since it's a discussion about how much the models should be sold for). Ah well. But on 2) - the models are used, not damaged. In the case of 40k products they may have become rendered useless due to being put together 'wrong', but an iThing won't be damaged just because you were listening to the 'wrong' music. Using the product before selling it != the product is broken (for most products anyways, i'll give you that it can happen with games workshop stuff). I still maintain my trifecta of a quality luxury item - craftsmanship, materials, resale. GW tends to fail on all three.

 Vermis wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What the market will bear.

It's clearly not too high because people are still buying them.

It's clearly too high when there are fewer and fewer sales.

I don't have any numbers on hand so I can't speak to that, I do know I see new players starting 40k about as frequently as I see people dropping the game where I am.

That said it is a chicken/egg problem. The fewer sales the more they have to charge to stay profitable.

You don't need numbers, it's easy to infer.

Costs have been cut, prices have been increased, revenue and profit have fallen.

There's only so many pictures you can paint with that information.

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Orly? I've got probably something around 3000 pts orks, 1500 pts Khornate Demons, currently busy building another 1500-2000 points of CSM with various loyalist and traitor bits to form maybe another 1000 pts give or take and the orkish part of the blood bowl starter kit. I haven't bought a single model from GW directly.