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 Blacksails wrote:
Just remember who you're debating the relative strength of Wave Serpents vs. Sicarans with.

Honestly I'm more worried about Sicarans making Land Speeders utterly useless than anything to do with Wave Serpents.

I thought land speeders already were next to useless?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Just remember who you're debating the relative strength of Wave Serpents vs. Sicarans with.

Honestly I'm more worried about Sicarans making Land Speeders utterly useless than anything to do with Wave Serpents.

I'd be more worried about just Sicarans making Land Speeders utterly useless.

*EDIT* GODDAMIT 4 SECONDS

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I thought land speeders already were next to useless?

Mostly. They're okay on hyper-terrain-heavy boards where you don't get sniped down turn one for getting suicide multi-meltas and heavy flamers places quickly (but it's an aggressive defense strategy and it doesn't work well if the other guy is going to hang back and not run at you).

Funnily enough the Forge World Land Speeder Tempest is actually not too bad if you're fighting people that have rear AV 10 vehicles and/or support models.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Whats wrong with the Transcendent C'tan again ?

In Apocalypse? Nothing

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?

"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.

Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.

Kangodo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Whats wrong with the Transcendent C'tan again ?

In Apocalypse? Nothing

It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.

If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.

If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.

I know I would never play the T-C'tan in a regular game unless I my opponent asked me to play it.
But hey, since this model is not FW I don't think it's on topic!
We're still looking for overpowered models that are actually from Forgeworld.

Really comparing a dedicated transport to a dedicated main battle tank and complaining that the battle tank can kill a transport? It should, and should do so easily, but it doesn't. Front armor on a serpent is av 12, you need 5s to even glance it. So you don't get a jink save, boo frikken hoo, its a transport, you have more.

7th edition made speeders useless, not the dreaded Sicaran.

Mine rarely lives through a game. I play both elder and HH so I see both sides of it. There is very little I would call cheese in current FW. It all has its negatives. "Oh you have 5 marines with melta guns in a drop pod, that's cheesy." Yeah that squad also cost over 200 points and still only rarely can kill a knight in a volley. And of course its supposed to take out a land raider in a volley, they are a dedicated anti-tank unit that's going to die next turn from the guys who get out. 20 assault marines? Cheese- Really? 450 points hello?

Sorry, what it comes down to is the anti-FW people just like to complain. Pick better people to play against. You are going to find TFG in every group, but you find the one TFG who happens to play FW and now all of FW is bad? Grow up. FW is what GW should be a much more balanced game rules with better models.

Oh and the Lynx is AV11 and is still 300+ points. You can kill it with heavy bolters or anything str5 or better.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?

"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.

Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.

Since I hate to see arguments about semantics take over discussions this is the last I'm going to say on the subject; you may have the last word if you so choose. The phrase "rape train" is a meme derived from hyperbole and its current useage has about as much to do with rape as "hooligan" has with hating the Irish. Its usage in NauticalKendall's sentence was correct based on the common definition of the term. You may find the etymology of the phrase offensive but that doesn't change the phrase itself.

(To the audience: it could be worse, we could be arguing over false etymology for "picnic" or "niggardly", this is an argument that actually has two sides with a leg to stand on)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.

If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.

I know I would never play the T-C'tan in a regular game unless I my opponent asked me to play it.
But hey, since this model is not FW I don't think it's on topic!
We're still looking for overpowered models that are actually from Forgeworld.

Lynx before the nerf (doesn't really count since the nerf made it a lot more reasonable), Land Raider Achilles (which remains badly designed), Revenant (which has been pumped a hundred points since it was really silly). Those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, any other examples are internal balance rather than external OP-ness (the Forge World Predators are up and better than their standard counterparts even if they're not broken per se, the Vampire is literally a Thunderhawk only better...)

I think the point being made with the example of the Transcendent C'tan is that Games Workshop main are far worse at doing what people accuse of Forge World, that being the creation of overpowered superheavies/gargantuans.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.

Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?

"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.

Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.

Since I hate to see arguments about semantics take over discussions this is the last I'm going to say on the subject; you may have the last word if you so choose. The phrase "rape train" is a meme derived from hyperbole and its current useage has about as much to do with rape as "hooligan" has with hating the Irish. Its usage in NauticalKendall's sentence was correct based on the common definition of the term. You may find the etymology of the phrase offensive but that doesn't change the phrase itself.

(To the audience: it could be worse, we could be arguing over false etymology for "picnic" or "niggardly", this is an argument that actually has two sides with a leg to stand on)

If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
*LONG ARGUMENT*

If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".

(I suddenly see the problem with declaring the end of the argument where I did...)

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".

Now I am going to jump in, people can and will say what they what, its a fact of life. Ignore it, if it bothers you this much send the person a PM and kindly ask them to not use. Also remember that Rape Culture is a thinly defined and often disagreed upon theoretical concept. There is little in this world that isn't trivialized, and rape shouldn't get any special treatment. Welcome to humanity enjoy your stay.


On topic, I have to agree with the majority of posters about this topic. I see little wrong with using FW rules in standard games, though I do believe you should inform you opponents before hand if you intend to play such an army. LoW such as Primarchs and Super Heavies I always believe in asking an opponents permission even if with new rules you are allowed to have them regardless.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Filch wrote:

 hellpato wrote:
Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.

Yep that described me! For 6 years I played without the aid of Forge World models. They have some powerful stuff and the analogy should be, "Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a tooth pick in a battle tank fight." I used my GW only army and fought these other armies with 1 or 2 forge world units and they just wreck my army in 1 turn and I proceed to lose.

Care to provide an example?

Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.

Filch wrote:The only way to fight this cheese is to spend more money to buy FW books and buy FW models. How are you going to argue that FW are on the same level as GW units?

Vaktathi wrote:Because most are?

You can have regular helbrutes from CSM codex and the data slates, or you can go forge world and get the better av13 dreadnaughts in IA13. You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options. You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.

Filch wrote: If you own a FW model its because a.) it looked better or b.) you wanted something that wins!

Vaktathi wrote:And your reasoning for this is...?

Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.

Filch wrote:
They write these rules for Forge World so much better because they want you buy these obscenely exorbitant plastic models over expensive GW models.

Vaktathi wrote:Except...usually they're pretty mediocre, and GW's models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW models now...

Filch wrote:Its all about $$$!

I'm not entirely sure you really have much of an idea of what you're talking about here...

 Filch wrote:

Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.

You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.

When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.

Filch wrote:
You can have regular helbrutes from CSM codex and the data slates, or you can go forge world and get the better av13 dreadnaughts in IA13.

I have IA13, are you referring to Contemptor dreads that cost almost *twice* as much as basic dreads before any upgrades? Because...I hate to tell you, but they're not exactly great for their cost either. If you give them a ranged weapon and a Dedication, they cost as much as a Land Raider.

You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options.

The Relic Predators have limits and restrictions on how and how many can be taken, and are all more expensive than basic predators. What weapons options exactly are so much better for their cost than the basic Predator? A short ranged meltacannon on a slow tank for the price of a Wave Serpent before any other upgrades? A naked Conversion Beamer predator for the price of most Leman Russ tanks? These are the "way" better options? Nobody is rushing out to buy these units and kits for their wtfpwniwin lists really...

Neither Land Raider variant in IA13 is going to make anyone want to run out and buy them, they're both pretty bad. The Spartan is pretty solid and better than the basic Land Raider in an absolute sense, but also costs way more points and cannot be taken as a dedicated transport for Terminators the way a Land Raider can, it can only be taken as a Heavy Support option.

You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.

And the Heldrake is still either outright superior, or more cost effective, than the IA13 flyers, the Fire Raptor being the only potential exception (but is also more expensive with no daemonic save and has to pay for possession and doesn't get its daemonforge rule, and isn't going to remove squads of marines from the table with no armor or cover saves).

Filch wrote:

Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.

My point was that they're far from the only reasons to buy FW. I do own better looking FW alternatives to normal GW models. I also however have a Death Korps assault brigade, if you've read IA12, this army isn't particularly good, it just looks cool, but it's not simply a "better looking" version of an IG army, it's a relatively uniquely functioning IG army (but not really a particularly competitive one) that doesn't simply overlay directly with the basic IG codex. I also own units like Decimators for my CSM's. I didn't buy them to use as "prettier" dreadnoughts, and I certainly didn't buy them for their ability to help me win (because they won't).

Filch wrote:
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models.

I own tons of them. I've got dozens of DKoK Grenadiers and Engineers, DKoK heavy weapons squads, IG Heavy Mortars, DKoK Death Riders, Hades Breaching Drills, Autocannon turret chimeras, Chaos Decimators, Nightwing Interceptor, etc. None of these are exactly going to overpower most opponents.

What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins.

How's that any different from Codex books? I mean...really?

From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.

Sicaran's are good, but hardly amazingly overpowered. You're the only person I think ever think the Relic Predators are particularly great. Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat. Fire Raptors can be pretty brutal against certain armies, but they'll often end up being pointless against others.

So you telling me Forge World is not in the business to sell models and make more money?

No, I'm saying that they're not in the business of making stuff overpowered just to make money. FW stuff costs more not just because "it's all about $$$", but because they have higher costs themselves and lower production volumes, and generally increase their prices largely in line with inflation, unlike GW.

GW sells only 1 type of Imperial Knight on their website for $140. FW sell 3 variants for 170 euros or $200. I guess 40% more is exactly the same price. When you say GW models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW now, does that mean their prices have increased to match FW? Or did FW drop down to GW? If the price hike of GW has matched FW then that is a shame.

FW's prices have stayed largely stagnant, while GW's have gone through the roof. As an example, when DKoK Grenadiers first came out in 2006, they were 32 UKP, now they're 39 UKP, about 22% more, roughly in line with general inflation for the same time period. GW Kasrkin were $40 for 10 models in 2006, they've been removed from sale along with the old Stormtroopers (never available as a 10man box), and replaced with the Scions for $35 for 5 models, a 75% price increase in effectively the same unit over the same time period. Basic Cadian infantry were $35 for 20 models in early 2009, now they're $30 for 10 models, a ~72% price increase in just a few years. To go back to the Knights, when the Baneblade kit came out in 2007, it cost $90, the Knight that came out 6 years later, $140.

 Filch wrote:
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models. What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins. From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.

If this is a reason to ban FW rules then it's also a reason to ban codex rules. Have fun playing your special version of 40k on an empty table because every source of unbalanced rules has been banned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat.

Yeah, I don't get the love for the Typhon. It's just an IG Stormsword (a "main GW" unit) with a weaker gun, fewer HP, and a lower price tag to make up for it. Competitive players would never even consider using it if GW hadn't completely screwed up the original escalation book (where imperial armies and necrons get all of the good stuff and everyone else might as well have blank pages).

 Filch wrote:

Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.

Vaktathi wrote:You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.

When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.

You do realize that when GW wrote the CSM codex, it had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right? I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.

filch wrote: You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options.

vaktathi wrote:The Relic Predators have limits and restrictions on how and how many can be taken, and are all more expensive than basic predators. What weapons options exactly are so much better for their cost than the basic Predator? A short ranged meltacannon on a slow tank for the price of a Wave Serpent before any other upgrades? A naked Conversion Beamer predator for the price of most Leman Russ tanks? These are the "way" better options? Nobody is rushing out to buy these units and kits for their wtfpwniwin lists really...

Neither Land Raider variant in IA13 is going to make anyone want to run out and buy them, they're both pretty bad. The Spartan is pretty solid and better than the basic Land Raider in an absolute sense, but also costs way more points and cannot be taken as a dedicated transport for Terminators the way a Land Raider can, it can only be taken as a Heavy Support option.

Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.

filch wrote:You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.

Vaktathi wrote:And the Heldrake is still either outright superior, or more cost effective, than the IA13 flyers, the Fire Raptor being the only potential exception (but is also more expensive with no daemonic save and has to pay for possession and doesn't get its daemonforge rule, and isn't going to remove squads of marines from the table with no armor or cover saves).

So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.

Filch wrote:

Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.

Vaktathi wrote:My point was that they're far from the only reasons to buy FW. I do own better looking FW alternatives to normal GW models. I also however have a Death Korps assault brigade, if you've read IA12, this army isn't particularly good, it just looks cool, but it's not simply a "better looking" version of an IG army, it's a relatively uniquely functioning IG army (but not really a particularly competitive one) that doesn't simply overlay directly with the basic IG codex. I also own units like Decimators for my CSM's. I didn't buy them to use as "prettier" dreadnoughts, and I certainly didn't buy them for their ability to help me win (because they won't).

Great for you, you have much more disposable income than me to collect FW models frivolously for thematic armies.

Filch wrote:
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models.

Vaktahi wrote: I own tons of them. I've got dozens of DKoK Grenadiers and Engineers, DKoK heavy weapons squads, IG Heavy Mortars, DKoK Death Riders, Hades Breaching Drills, Autocannon turret chimeras, Chaos Decimators, Nightwing Interceptor, etc. None of these are exactly going to overpower most opponents.

Like I said, I do not care about the models collecting dust.

Filch wrote:What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins.

Vaktahi wrote: How's that any different from Codex books? I mean...really?

Because you take the best of the best from the Core Codex army and then add the best of the best from a FW supplement and you fight an army that only uses the Core Codex army with out anything else, which is more likely to win?

Filch wrote:From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.

Vaktathi wrote:Sicaran's are good, but hardly amazingly overpowered. You're the only person I think ever think the Relic Predators are particularly great. Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat. Fire Raptors can be pretty brutal against certain armies, but they'll often end up being pointless against others.

Sicaran rapid tracking stops targets from taking jink saves which really helps a CSM army kill Wave Serpents or what ever zooms around with jink saves. Malefic Ammunition gives hb some teeth. Typhons have a large blast Str 10 Ap1 Cannon that ignores cover even if you do not roll a 6 like Str D weapons.

Filch wrote:So you telling me Forge World is not in the business to sell models and make more money?

Vaktathi wrote: No, I'm saying that they're not in the business of making stuff overpowered just to make money. FW stuff costs more not just because "it's all about $$$", but because they have higher costs themselves and lower production volumes, and generally increase their prices largely in line with inflation, unlike GW.

Oh but did you not say the price for models from GW are equal to FW? Now you are trying to tell me FW maybe a bit more expensive because they have a smaller supply than GW?

Vaktathi wrote: GW sells only 1 type of Imperial Knight on their website for $140. FW sell 3 variants for 170 euros or $200. I guess 40% more is exactly the same price. When you say GW models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW now, does that mean their prices have increased to match FW? Or did FW drop down to GW? If the price hike of GW has matched FW then that is a shame.

Vaktathi wrote:FW's prices have stayed largely stagnant, while GW's have gone through the roof. As an example, when DKoK Grenadiers first came out in 2006, they were 32 UKP, now they're 39 UKP, about 22% more, roughly in line with general inflation for the same time period. GW Kasrkin were $40 for 10 models in 2006, they've been removed from sale along with the old Stormtroopers (never available as a 10man box), and replaced with the Scions for $35 for 5 models, a 75% price increase in effectively the same unit over the same time period. Basic Cadian infantry were $35 for 20 models in early 2009, now they're $30 for 10 models, a ~72% price increase in just a few years. To go back to the Knights, when the Baneblade kit came out in 2007, it cost $90, the Knight that came out 6 years later, $140.

Like I said, that is a shame that GW prices have caught up with FW.

I love it, I use it! you should too!!

 Kelly502 wrote:
I love it, I use it! you should too!!

Thats what I planing on doing but these guys are trying to dissuade me from using FW. What is their problem? You would think they are pro FW users.

 Filch wrote:
You do realize that when GW wrote the CSM codex, it had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right? I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.

Yeah, it's unbelievable how broken FW is. If you allow those superheavies you might actually give chaos armies an option that can compete with the imperial superheavies (including the utterly broken Warhound titan) get in "main GW" books. And that would just ruin the game.

Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.

All of which cost points. And the Spartan is especially hilarious because it's incredibly expensive and only gets even more expensive once you put 20 models into it. Yeah, you can build some ridiculous 1000 point terminator death star with one, but have fun winning the game when I just feed it a 50-point squad of guardsmen every turn.

Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself well before GW made them official in escalation or 6th ed. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.

Either you're lying about losing horribly because of a single FW model, your opponents are cheating, or you just suck at 40k. Nothing FW publishes is so powerful that a single model is going to delete 80% of your army, unless there are "main GW" lists that would do the exact same thing to you.

Because CSM doesn't get a stormsword? CSM armies have to ally IG to get a Stormsword. The Typhon gives us CSM players a S 10 AP1 Large blast that ignores cover which is something CSM needs in the fire power department.

So your argument that FW is overpowered is that it gives pure CSM a unit that is almost as good as the "main GW" equivalent IG get to take?

 Peregrine wrote:

Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.

All of which cost points. And the Spartan is especially hilarious because it's incredibly expensive and only gets even more expensive once you put 20 models into it. Yeah, you can build some ridiculous 1000 point terminator death star with one, but have fun winning the game when I just feed it a 50-point squad of guardsmen every turn.

Further absurdity on the same subject: The Chaos Land Raider and the Spartan are there as assault transports primarily, there isn't another good reason to take them.

The Storm Eagle (also a FW unit, I will concede) is better at it than either of them for fewer points.


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 Peregrine wrote:

Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself well before GW made them official in escalation or 6th ed. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.

Either you're lying about losing horribly because of a single FW model, your opponents are cheating, or you just suck at 40k. Nothing FW publishes is so powerful that a single model is going to delete 80% of your army, unless there are "main GW" lists that would do the exact same thing to you.

A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)

Well, by "FW model" I mean a model with rules published by FW, which the Revenant isn't.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)

Well, by "FW model" I mean a model with rules published by FW, which the Revenant isn't.

The most current rules for all the big stuff are in Apocalypse now.

Except the Daemon Lords, which keep getting hit by the nerfbat every time I see them.

 Filch wrote:


You do realize that GW owns ForgeWorld right?

Yes they're the same company, but there are two different studios.

You do realize that the CSM codex had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right?

What's you're point? Rules for Thunderhawks, Reavers, and Warhounds aren't in C:SM or C:IG either. They are however in the Apocalypse and Escalation books, written by GW's core studio. FW just slapped them in IA13 with a couple extra widgets to make them accessible to CSM's.

I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.

For CSM's yes, because GW's bad at organizing their rules and these units exist alongside the forces of the CSM in the fluff and in other game iterations (i.e. Epic).

Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.

Malefic ammunition is absurdly, hilarious overpriced, nobody considers it a particularly good or even mediocre option.

Only the Spartan has increased transport capacity and has the same conflicting weapons loadout of lascannons and heavy bolters (and again, costs *way* more than a normal Land Raider), the other Land Raiders do not have an increased transport capacity, in fact one only has a transport capacity of 6 and neither have the Assault Vehicle rule. One has the same weapons as a basic LR and the other has the even more conflicting loadout of multimeltas and a thudd gun.

So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.

Which has what to do with the Heldrake being better? Sometimes people want to run something different or just like the model, it also doesn't necessarily mean the other units are *bad*, but with the Heldrake there as it currently stands, they're not taking them just for power. The Blight Drones are a bit different, they're available to Daemons, not just CSM's, but again, they're less well armored than a Heldrake, and have fewer HP's, don't get Vector strikes, don't have the Daemonforge ability, and aren't ignoring cover saves on Marines, and they cost almost as much as a Heldrake.

You see people run Falcons or IG heavy weapons squads or CC dreads or Vypers sometime too, even though there are better options. Not everyone takes things just for their power.

Filch wrote:
Great for you, you have much more disposable income than me to collect FW models frivolously for thematic armies.

Ok, so instead of actually accepting the argument that people take FW units for something other than raw power or just better looking replacements for existing units, you just resort to a personal attack. Sweet.

That collection is also something built up over many years, and if you're paying retail prices for GW now, you can afford most of those units I mentioned. Not everyone just builds razor edged competitive armies. Otherwise all we'd be seeing are Centstars, Wave Serpent fleets, Flyrant spam, and the like.

But I guess having income over 8 years to build a DKoK army over time is bad

Filch wrote: Like I said, I do not care about the models collecting dust.

I've used everything but the Nightwing and Hades drills within the last month.

But sure, go ahead, keep deflecting...

Because you take the best of the best from the Core Codex army and then add the best of the best from a FW supplement and you fight an army that only uses the Core Codex army with out anything else, which is more likely to win?

For most armies, probably a tossup. CSM's are a bit different, their codex has a multitude of gaps which FW helps cover some (and is more an issue with the CSM book being painfully underwhelming and largely having been so since 2007), but for say, Eldar or Space Marines? Most power builds aren't going to bother with FW.

That said, I'm assuming you're ignoring multiple detachments, dataslates, formations, and allies for a reason? These are all going to result in far more abuse and shennanigans than anything from FW.

Sicaran rapid tracking stops targets from taking jink saves which really helps a CSM army kill Wave Serpents or what ever zooms around with jink saves.

And they cost a lot more than the pure codex alternative, Predators, and cost as much as a kitted Wave Serpent before giving the Sicaran any upgrades.

Malefic Ammunition gives hb some teeth.

For an absolutely ridiculous price premium, sure. Again, nobody considers these anything even remotely resembling a competitive option. They're quite possibly the most hilariously overcosted upgrade in the game.

Typhons have a large blast Str 10 Ap1 Cannon that ignores cover even if you do not roll a 6 like Str D weapons.

And yet they don't inflict multiple wounds, don't auto-pen, can't potentially ignore Invul saves, etc. It gets to throw out one shot per turn, with a not inconsiderable chance of a whiff. Other superheavies available via other books like Escalation do much the same thing. An Imperial Guard Hellhammer for example has an almost identical main gun (shorter stationary range, longer mobile range) and nobody is running out and buying those hand-over-fist.

Oh but did you not say the price for models from GW are equal to FW? Now you are trying to tell me FW maybe a bit more expensive because they have a smaller supply than GW?

They're equalizing and many units overlap currently (particularly infantry), but when there is a difference, the explanation I gave is why. I'm not sure why that was particularly hard to get.

Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.

And exactly which FW units are *so* much more amazingly powerful than the most powerful Codex units that do this?

 Vaktathi wrote:

So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.

Which has what to do with the Heldrake being better? Sometimes people want to run something different or just like the model, it also doesn't necessarily mean the other units are *bad*, but with the Heldrake there as it currently stands, they're not taking them just for power. The Blight Drones are a bit different, they're available to Daemons, not just CSM's, but again, they're less well armored than a Heldrake, and have fewer HP's, don't get Vector strikes, don't have the Daemonforge ability, and aren't ignoring cover saves on Marines, and they cost almost as much as a Heldrake.

You see people run Falcons or IG heavy weapons squads or CC dreads or Vypers sometime too, even though there are better options. Not everyone takes things just for their power.

I'm still confused at the folks that don't like the Hell Blade. Six twin-linked autocannon shots on an outflanking Flyer for the cost of a Wave Serpent. Fragile, doomed if the other guy's got much AA, but it'll wreck a lot of stuff when it hits.

It's not a bad unit, I like it, it's powerful but fragile and looks cool, it's reasonably balanced and functional. The Heldrake just offers such a powerful capability that can't be replicated even by FW units effectively, and is still super solid even when kitted with the autocannon, and has so much more survivability that it's likely to make far more attack runs.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm still confused at the folks that don't like the Hell Blade. Six twin-linked autocannon shots on an outflanking Flyer for the cost of a Wave Serpent. Fragile, doomed if the other guy's got much AA, but it'll wreck a lot of stuff when it hits.

Bolded the answer to your question. The Hell Blade isn't as terrible as it used to be, but it's incredibly fragile and dies almost instantly against any AA that gets a chance to shoot at it. And if your opponent brought any AA fortifications with interceptor guns they have a pretty good chance of killing it as soon as it arrives. That's just not consistent enough to justify spending 130 points.

I'm still waiting for the 5man mk4 tactical squad I bought to wipe out 80% of my opponents army.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Lynx before the nerf (doesn't really count since the nerf made it a lot more reasonable), Land Raider Achilles (which remains badly designed), Revenant (which has been pumped a hundred points since it was really silly). Those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, any other examples are internal balance rather than external OP-ness (the Forge World Predators are up and better than their standard counterparts even if they're not broken per se, the Vampire is literally a Thunderhawk only better...)

Revenant doesn't count anymore tbh. Since the strength D nerf it's nothing like the monster it was in v6 at 800 points.


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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I think the point being made with the example of the Transcendent C'tan is that Games Workshop main are far worse at doing what people accuse of Forge World, that being the creation of overpowered superheavies/gargantuans.

To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.

To some people, even IK are FW.

Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.

morgoth wrote:
To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.

To some people, even IK are FW.

Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.

So your definition of FW rules is "anything I decide to call FW, regardless of whether anyone working under the FW brand had anything to do with it"? I understand that your bizarre definition makes it easier to "justify" your complaints about FW rules, but it's not really a constructive one when you're discussing the subject with other people.