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They're fine. Most of them have sucky rules. They're cool models. Use 'em all the time.

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Orlando

So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?

If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM! 
   
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Col. Dash wrote:
So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?

Broken combos or do you just mean invisibility? WS WK and Riptides? Really? What else is broken? Also who is saying that these things are okay? They aren't okay!

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Col. Dash wrote:
So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?


Do you even read what I write ?

I said that first of all, FW had models more broken than GW on a per model basis.

And that second, FW combos as absurd as "2++ rerollable" are not talked about because FW is not being used.

In all likelihood, there are combos much more ridiculous available but you wouldn't know because there's like 5% of all 40K players who play forgeworld and there is almost no FW included competition, so no players to look actively for those combos.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Off-hand I can't think of any FW unit more unbalanced than the waveserpent (or riptides, or 2++ rerollable etc etc) except for perhaps necron pylon shenanigans (but you need to use codex stuff to make that work).

Your examples listed earlier were already debunked.

If FW are bad at pricing as you say, then I believe it would be in opposite direction: many of their rules seem too conservative with points and could use a reduction.

Let's use IA: Vol 2 as an example. Let's consider how many of the units people would want in a competitive list (some are obvious, others are open to debate, these are my opinions).

IA: Vol 2 has 38 different vehicles. Of these I would say only 2 are very competitive:

The sicaran and the fireraptor.
(And btw I disagree with you that the sicaran is more unbalanced than the waveserpent. Perhaps when it was 13/13/13 it might have been, but now it is 13/12/12 it is certainly less powerful.

Besides these two there are some good choices:
Achilles, Scorpius, Caestus, Repressor, Mk V Mortis, mortis contemptor.

So imo that's a total of 8/38 units that might find themselves in a competitive list.

Around three quarters of the book could do with a points reduction to improve balance and make them more viable picks.

In all likelihood, there are combos much more ridiculous available but you wouldn't know because there's like 5% of all 40K players who play forgeworld and there is almost no FW included competition, so no players to look actively for those combos.
This appears to be entirely speculation on your part. We use FW almost everygame, including FW army lists, and I can tell you that this is not true.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 14:05:54


 
   
Made in ca
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

morgoth wrote:

That's just plain wrong, I've given several examples of things from FW that are just way worse than a Wave Serpent.


And by several, you mean four, right? One of which wasn't actually a FW product, either in rules or model? The other three could hardly be called better than the Wave Serpent either.

Keep trying.

2++ Rerollable is an effect of combos and due to minimal table time, most FW combos are still undiscovered.



Hahaha, no.

Combos don't remain undiscovered for months or years. People figure this out in weeks, if not days. When you have the internet and forums and other boards, coupled with frequent tournaments across the globe, any new release is very quickly analyzed by hundreds, if not thousands of knowledgeable people. That information comes here, where more people pick at it, and before you know it, the combos are figured out.

The broken combos in FW that don't exist are because they just don't exist, not because they haven't been discovered.

Regardless, I don't know why you're even arguing this, seeing as you admitted earlier you like FW.

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morgoth wrote:

Pretty much and all is not the same thing, besides the Genestealer army is a bad joke, and the Ravenwing is "pretty much"


It being a joke doesn't matter, you asked for an example, he provided one.


morgoth wrote:
T Ctan used to be Apocalypse only.
Apocalypse used to be FW only.

That was not so long ago, many people are still in that mindset.

People proved nothing, I gave examples of FW crazy that nobody could disprove.


You realize that the T Ctan came out well after Apoc became a GW thing right? And lets not forget that Apoc hasn't been a FW thing in a long time, since 2007, which by the way was 4th Edition. If these 'people' want to cling to an outdated near eight year old thought process I'm not gonna give them any leeway.


morgoth wrote:
It's a terrible one, but it's still commonplace, because FW and anything non-standard 40K has always been part of the big unknown for some players.

FW is great, I own some, love it, play it - just trying to make the blind FW fanatics realize that some 40K players are against FW for tangible reasons.


I fail to see how anything sold by GW is unknown for players when evertime they go to the store or the website they will be getting slapped in the face by it. Its GW, they market. Alot.

Secondly I don't think tangible is the word you are looking for. Maybe logical, but the reasons people don't want it are hardly logical. And if anything your defense has been more blind that the so called "FW Fanatics".

morgoth wrote:

I know it's hard to grasp, but can you try to realize that for many people, anything that is not part of codexes is one big pile of unknown stuff ?

Can you try to understand that anything beyond that is unknown / FW / Apoc territory and that they would toss it all together as the big unknown pile of FW WTF because they were in contact with some of it and it was truly fethed up ?


Im not saying its not unknown, I am saying that your excuse that "if its unknown it's FW is wrong". I have never met anyone in my years of gaming where if I went up to them and had a conversation about the game, and we starting talking about this cool new model and its rules, and how it's in one of the GW books, none of them would go "No that's FW its not in the Codex." They would ask what Apoc Datasheet it was or what Apoc book its in.

So I will understand that things can be unknown, that fact I wont dispute. I have and will continue to dispute people lumping everything outside of the Codex into FW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 16:21:38


 
   
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UK

There are way more broken and "OP" units and rules in the default 40k ruleset than there is in the Forgeworld catalogue.

In fact offhand I dont know of any units from forgeworld that are considered overpowered... FW have a habit of erring on the high side when they put out their points costs. Playing with FW units is more often a disadvantage, but you get the benefit of using cool different models and some fun combinations (eg. Dread Mob).
   
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UK

At this point Morgoth you need to pick an arguement, you can't justify "FW is Bad" and then use core GW lords of war, fortifications and codex's to justify it. It's like saying "I hate apples because oranges suck", if you want to strip out Lord of War, Fortifications, IK Codex's and so on and so forth there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, it's called playing 5th ed.

However your arguements against forgeworld units seem to be based on very poorly informed facts, or reviewing the power of an item without the assosiated points cost.

Not everyone knows every GW codex, similary not everyone knows every FW rules, however a decent opponent brings their dex and FW book to a game so that their oppponent can review the items in use pre-game.

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morgoth wrote:

People proved nothing, I gave examples of FW crazy that nobody could disprove.


What were those things? The Special Ammo for CSM Predators repeatedly stated to be over Costed? The Sicarian Battle Tank, which is expensive, both money and points wise and also lacks the Transport Abilities of the Wave Serpent. The TCtan, which isn't FW all together? The Klaw Stompa?
   
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 koooaei wrote:
I don't mind FW itself. But 2 out of 2 people i've played using forgeworld have been rather TFG.

For example, 1 guy fielded a renegade artillery list with some super-heavy plasma-tank and a void-shield generator (stronghold assault, i guess) against my orks. I asked him to explain how his stuff works as i don't own neither stronghold assault, nor don't know the rules for renegades and he told me void-shields are av12 4 hp for units within 12' radius. I asked: "Any units?" And he told: "Yes, any units".

During deployment he placed a large fortress partially in ruins and partially in the woods even though it's against the rules - and deployed all his artillery behind it. I thought - no big deal, it's a friendly game after all.

Than the game went on and i rushed towards the void shields and happened to have a few units underneath it. Than he shot and i claimed av12 from void shields. He told me it ain't working like this. But i've asked him to read the rules for me 'out of the book' as i've come to a conclusion that void shields work on any unit underneath it based on what he had told me. He got pissed off and claimed it's complete nonscence and started bitching about it. In the meanwhile i've googled bout the void shields and found a discussion here on dakka where people also claimed void shields work on any model friend or foe. The guy went hulk and told me that everyone's stupid and that i should have my own books and so on. Got to end the game turn 2.

Another guy Fielded 2 riptides list in a 1250 casual match - i've specifically stated beforehand it's gona be an extremely casual fluffy game. 1 was a forgeworld riptide with experimental rules - the one with 2 blasts which he told were ap3. He backed them up with tetras, a buffmander he joined to a riptide (6-th edition) and got a crysis suit team + a min squad of firewarriors and a min squad of vespids (to go extremely casual, i guess). My list was: Tzeench Apostle with gift, Tzeench footslogging sorc with gift, 2 large units of cultists, 2 squads of 10 possessed with 2 gifts each and a squad of 1000 sons with gift in a rhino.

Apostle rolled crussader, possessed champ rolled shrowded, others rolled useless stuff. Sorc got endurance. So, i've joined up apostle, sorc and possessed with shrowded, buffed them with endurance and launched them on one flank. Second possessed squad rushed the other flank. He bunched up and poured fire. Eventually, he killed off everything but a squad of cultists that were hiding behind blos with a relic. And he started bitching about...basically everything. About how i roll invulnerable and fnp saves. About how daemon possessed are broken (!), about how sorc with force weapons and endurance is broken and so on, and so forth.

So, it's probably anecdotal evidence but i don't want to play against fw guyz anymore


First let me say I own a complete death korps of krieg guard army that I use with the main rulebook for rules. The models are lovely, but I have rarely ever seen anyone who wants to play forgeworld lists and rules play anything fluffy or cool just to play it. Everyone I see playing forgeworld is just like the example above that tau guy who plays ravr'na, the sm cheese lists playing the red scorpion guy with a 2+ save for his army, etc etc. most people don't play forgeworld cause it's fluffy they play it for advantage. Back in the day every krieg list use to have multiple engineers with the drill transport. It's still just as fluffy and NO ONE plays it because it's no longer broken regarding the rules. And just like the above poster that's the experience I have playing against players who play using forgeworld rules. It's not the models that bother me it's the rules. And for those that claim well 40k is just as broken without forgeworld. No it isn't. Right now barring unbound which no one plays or some lord of war options which tend to be agreed upon before hand and even less people own cause they are usually like $500 dollar forgeworld models and if you use the victory point rules regarding them makes them less winnable but still not really fun to play against the rules are getting much better in basic 40k. Every army after necrons will be updated to 6th/7th. No armies are arguably complete rubbish. And the only widely considered overpowered armies are eldar spam and space marine centurion Death Stars.

Saying all the above I still have no issues with forgeworld. They just need to update thier rules quicker. They are woefully behind right now. And in tournament formats they can be played competitively with enough rules and model limitations to make it fair without the cheese. Look to the Las Vegas open as an example of how the abuse can be limited and forgeworld is fun and playable. I honestly think if necrons receive thier update at the end of January and is usable in LVO that tournament and this year will a a fairly decent year for multiple armies to be competitive. I cant really say right now which army will win LVO. Tyranids? Elder? Centurion star? Bike star? And really other then that red scorpion character non of these are heavily influenced by forgeworld.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 17:56:27


 
   
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I don't think Peregrine has posted in awhile, and if Peregrine has given up on someone in a Forgeworld thread, that is very telling.

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morgoth wrote:
That's just plain wrong, I've given several examples of things from FW that are just way worse than a Wave Serpent.
Yes, stuff like T-C'tans and Void Shield Generators.
   
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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't think Peregrine has posted in awhile, and if Peregrine has given up on someone in a Forgeworld thread, that is very telling.


You haven't said Peregrine's name three times, which is necessary to summon our feathered friend.

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Let's be honest, just saying "forgeworld" is waaaaay too wide of a net, there's tons of FW models, some are absolutely trash in terms of rules, and some are great. But.... so are normal tabletop units? Riptides, Wave Serpents, perma-invisible be'lakor. Copious amounts of "Eh" on this whole thing.

Also, painful amounts of anecdotal evidence condemning "that guy with fw models". There's probably at least as many "that guy"s with GW models.

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morgoth wrote:
Do you even read what I write ?


I've been trying. I found

morgoth wrote:
ForgeWorld is fine.


a few pages back and it confused me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 19:09:32


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Do you even read what I write ?


I've been trying. I found

morgoth wrote:
ForgeWorld is fine.


a few pages back and it confused me.


That's my personal opinion.

The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
   
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On moon miranda.

The problem is you haven't shown anything that's actually from FW that's anything like the crazy imbalanced stuff you can do without FW, and have tried to use things like Void Shield Generators that FW has nothing to do with to justify that.

Yes we know people think FW is abuseable and crazy, but there's relatitvely little to actually justify that.

Even when there possibly is, GW seems determined to top it. Nobody cared about IG Thudd Guns for instance until mid 6th edition, then people realized that with allies and lots of HQ support, they could make them very scary. Well, GW said "to hell with that" and just came out with the Wyvern that did the same thing, but on a mobile tank chassis and without the need for allied psyker support because it got Twin Linked and Ignores Cover as a freebie.

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morgoth wrote:


The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.


You're doing a pretty poor job.

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I personally, love Forge World models on the tabletop. Expands the 40k universe a great deal IMO. Plus there's also this.. (pics by bladeiai ok there's some 3rd party stuff on too, but whatever)









How fething cool does that look?! lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 21:57:02


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morgoth wrote:
The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.


If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/09 22:38:27


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 Peregrine wrote:
morgoth wrote:
The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.


If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.


People aren't actually doing that are they?

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 Grey Templar wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
morgoth wrote:
The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.


If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.


People aren't actually doing that are they?


One person is:

morgoth wrote:
To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.


morgoth wrote:
Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Essex, UK

My only problems with FW are:

AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover

and the fact that it's nigh on impossible to keep up to date with the most current rules.

If FW kept a record of where to find the most current rules for each unit on their site, AND did 7th Ed FAQs for all their stuff I would be all for them, everywhere. Minus the units that shoot weapons as above.
   
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AlexRae wrote:
AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover


Kind of like the "main GW" units with those weapons?

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AlexRae wrote:
My only problems with FW are:

AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover



If the blast is that powerful its supposed to make a mockery of cover most of the time. I thought the blast simulated it exploding in mid-air over said cover and sweeping down on the target.

Also since forgeworld makes most of the Lords of War which are powerful units it makes sense for them to have a lot of large blasts associated with their units. You can expect nothing less from a Titan's main weapons or a Kill-Bursta's belly cannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/10 01:06:23


 
   
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Well, IA13 and I think the other IA books expressly state that they are an "expansion" for WH40k so I personally don't see the issue. Juts to be treated like any other expansion.

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