Continuing Rumors of WHFB 9th (Post-End Times) in Early Summer 2015

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**ClockworkZion**

PhantomViper wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

The game is dying because GW tried to pander to veterans and collectors and have priced out everyone else by requiring huge model counts to even start an army.

How exactly did 8th edition "pander to veterans"?

8th edition made the previous style of armies that generally consisted of a large variety of small units completely obsolete and instead forced everyone to double or triple their infantry unit sizes if they wanted to remain competitive while simultaneous making other unit choices completely unviable. The overwhelming majority of veterans that I knew about abandoned the game in 8th edition, not one of the changes that GW made was made with veterans in mind except perhaps by "forcing" them to re-buy large amounts of models that they already had just to serve as wound counters.

8th made big armies with high models counts needed for even the standard sized games resulting in only vets having enough to really field proper armies, much less have enough models to have any real flexibility. Newer players commonly didn't even get as far as building their first army to a completely legal level before the cost of doing so caught up with them.

Basically the lack of a smaller level of play is what made it an edition that pandered more to the vets than to anyone else. You needed a lot of models to play just about anything.

**ImAGeek**

ClockworkZion wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

The game is dying because GW tried to pander to veterans and collectors and have priced out everyone else by requiring huge model counts to even start an army.

How exactly did 8th edition "pander to veterans"?

8th edition made the previous style of armies that generally consisted of a large variety of small units completely obsolete and instead forced everyone to double or triple their infantry unit sizes if they wanted to remain competitive while simultaneous making other unit choices completely unviable. The overwhelming majority of veterans that I knew about abandoned the game in 8th edition, not one of the changes that GW made was made with veterans in mind except perhaps by "forcing" them to re-buy large amounts of models that they already had just to serve as wound counters.

8th made big armies with high models counts needed for even the standard sized games resulting in only vets having enough to really field proper armies, much less have enough models to have any real flexibility. Newer players commonly didn't even get as far as building their first army to a completely legal level before the cost of doing so caught up with them.

Basically the lack of a smaller level of play is what made it an edition that pandered more to the vets than to anyone else. You needed a lot of models to play just about anything.

That's not really pandering to the vets. I'm sure veterans wished it was cheaper, and that more people were picking the game up. What games workshop did was pander to no one, but price newcomers out. No one won there. If they'd pandered to the Vets, the vets would have at least got something out of it.

There's a difference between 'pandering to the veterans' and 'pricing anyone who isn't a veteran out'.

**MaxT**

That wasn't so much pandering to the vets as it was trying to sell more product.

**namiel**

ImAGeek wrote:
I've just got my copy of Thanquol and just flicking through all its done is remind me why I love the Lizardmen. I hope they aren't gone.

Lizardmen are dinosaurs riding dinosaurs..................They sell well and the whole range is pretty much in plastic. The lizards are staying

**perrsyu**

Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

**namiel**

perrsyu wrote:
Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

I dont see them squatting a whole PLASTIC range of badass minis. We are talking about molds that GW spent in the neighboorhood of $20mil to have made

**TheAuldGrump**

MaxT wrote:
That wasn't so much pandering to the vets as it was trying to sell more product.

Hell, most of the vets that I know hate the 8th edition rules.

Giving the vets rules that they hate is not pandering to them.

What GW really wanted was Little Timmy buying a huge army - and he didn't.

Mostly because he was happily playing X-Wing....

(Seriously - X-Wing is a great gateway drug for the hobby - Little Timmy is happy, and so are the older players.)

The veterans already having enough figures does not help GW - they weren't after the vets, they were after Little Timmy.

Have fun with X-Wing, Little Timmy, and bring others in with you.

The Auld Grump, and the grognards are old enough to have fond memories of Star Wars, so they are happy too....

*EDIT* But Han shot first....

**ClockworkZion**

Grump, X-Wing hasn't been out that long. Timmy was buying into Warmahordes/Hormachine first.

**Crazy_Carnifex**

TheAuldGrump wrote:

*EDIT* But Han shot first....

And that is why Han is PS9.

**namiel**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
The veterans already having enough figures does not help GW - they weren't after the vets, they were after Little Timmy.

GW is always about little timmy. Veteran gamers WILL spend money and for the most part are loyal to where they play. Little timmy spends a lot more of his parents money then the vets. GW's philosophy has always been all about the new player because existing ones will buy regardless.

This policy of veteran gamers buying regardless is beginning to change. At least in my area. Too many quality games are coming out

**the_Armyman**

Charles Rampant wrote:
The thing to remember is that, according to these rumours, the current way of doing things is not the model. The rumours say that we should expect rapid and small additions to the six factions in turn, which I shall call 'waves', and that these waves will be time-limited. For this model, keeping an army simply because it has a lot of kits doesn't matter; the whole idea is to bring out lots of new kits with interesting and unique looks, in a fire-and-forget format that allows GW to avoid having a huge range of boxes. They don't want to have an Elven faction with 89 boxes; they want an Elven faction with a half-dozen long-lasting boxes (call it the 'essentials' range: bog standard core units, for which the current Dark Elf infantry box is a very strong contender), and a revolving stock of another half dozen boxes, all with unique IP qualities. Having lots of current kits thus is totally irrelevant to the future, since the current range (with millions of kits, and various ancient Core plastic boxes) is not envisaged as playing any role in the future range.

You should probably not expect the current army book titles to remain. Instead, I would expect a new more unique title, and then the Lizards may or may not turn up as a recurring element in one of those. As a purely speculative example: 'The Savage Hierarchy', for which the initial wave includes Saurus Cavalry and Skink skirmishers (both sexy new kits with round bases), along with a big monster (Carnosaur kit for example). Then six months later we get a Fishmen wave for them, which has a bunch of stuff like swarms and tough heavy infantry. Six months later you get Saurus Beserkers, who are a unit of super-heavy infantry. Six months after that, they retire the Fishmen wave, and bring out a new wave. And so on.

This is all assuming that the rumours are correct, and that I've interpreted those rumours correctly.

Exalted.

I think you get it, Charles, and this is also the way I see this whole thing playing out. A set of core boxes for each army book is kept on the shelves. Duplicate boxed sets that fulfill the same tabletop role get phased out, with limited splash releases on a regular basis to keep each faction buying throughout the year. The old model of updated army books every 3-5 years with 4-6 new kits per release is gone.

A new kit gets a weekly White Dwarf spotlight, it's kept as a Direct Order SKU for a number of months, then it gets discontinued if it doesn't sell.

**Rainbow Dash**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Grump, X-Wing hasn't been out that long. Timmy was buying into Warmahordes/Hormachine first.

Or 40k if he was dumb lol

I never see beginners play Fantasy anymore.
I don't really like 8th ed, but I hate 7th ed more (mostly due to the horrible overpowered codexes that were made in it).
I also dislike 6th and 7th ed of 40k so sold most everything but my rarest orks (eg armourcast trukk, 1st ed stuff, what have you).

The only army I'll really keep is my Wood Elves because they... well are my own bizarre creation and I like them.
I do suppose I can sell the dwarves if someone wants to make Squats lol (they're the old school 6th ed ones)

**TheAuldGrump**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Grump, X-Wing hasn't been out that long. Timmy was buying into Warmahordes/Hormachine first.

I haven't seen many Little Timmys playing WARMAHordes at all. I think that the youngest player in the WARMAHordes group is in his early twenties. (He is youngest for both games - he plays Khador and Circle.)

Mostly the Little Timmys that I have seen have been playing HeroClicks and X-Wing - and I think X-Wing is the better of the two. (There are also a few playing Flames of War... and really enjoying it on all levels, including the history. It reminds me of me at that age.

)

I have promised to start a Flames of War force now that they are doing WWI.

(The little Timmys can sometimes drag in a grognard.)

The Auld Grump,If you want to find the General, I know where he is,
I know where he is, I know where he is.
If you want to find the General, I know where he is,
He's pinning another medal on his chest.
I saw him, I saw him, pinning another medal on his chest,
I saw him, pinning another medal on his chest....

**PhantomViper**

perrsyu wrote:
Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

Lustria was destroyed and the remains of the Lizardmen flew of into space in giant spaceships.

For all intents and purposes they are dead.

**Rainbow Dash**

PhantomViper wrote:
perrsyu wrote:
Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

Lustria was destroyed and the remains of the Lizardmen flew of into space in giant spaceships.

For all intents and purposes they are dead.

wait what?

**PhantomViper**

Rainbow Dash wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
perrsyu wrote:
Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

Lustria was destroyed and the remains of the Lizardmen flew of into space in giant spaceships.

For all intents and purposes they are dead.

wait what?

Someone took a picture from the new Thanquol book:

Spoiler:

From: Exodus UFO Lizards - The Great Escape

**judgedoug**

namiel wrote:
I dont see them squatting a whole PLASTIC range of badass minis. We are talking about molds that GW spent in the neighboorhood of $20mil to have made

20 million what? Not dollars

tooling a sprue is a few thousand bucks at most - about $8k to contract out to someone else. GW owns all their own equipment, so it's much cheaper. Let's say we'll overestimate and say GW has no idea what they're doing and they spend $10,000 per sprue. That means the Lizardmen have over 2000 sprues tooled? Hell let's go crazy and say they're using titanium molds and it's cut by laser diamonds mounted on jetpack sharks and they cost $20k per sprue to tool - so there's 1000 Lizardmen tools?

**Flashman**

PhantomViper wrote:

Someone took a picture from the new Thanquol book:

Spoiler:

From: Exodus UFO Lizards - The Great Escape

OMG! They killed Kroak

And that was a really badly written piece of text.

It does seem to confirm bubble hammer though...

**Rainbow Dash**

PhantomViper wrote:
Rainbow Dash wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
perrsyu wrote:
Are we positive they are getting squatted? My partner and i heard these were simply flying across the old world, but not erased. Should they had been destroyed then yes, squatted, however right up until they are completed dead according to GW after that absolutely no.

Lustria was destroyed and the remains of the Lizardmen flew of into space in giant spaceships.

For all intents and purposes they are dead.

wait what?

Someone took a picture from the new Thanquol book:

Spoiler:

From: Exodus UFO Lizards - The Great Escape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kR2dokH6-Y

Yeah that's all I got...there's floating islands in the Warhammer world...
still no Miyazaki fairytale world, lord knows I'd prefer it

**namiel**

judgedoug wrote:
namiel wrote:
I dont see them squatting a whole PLASTIC range of badass minis. We are talking about molds that GW spent in the neighboorhood of $20mil to have made

20 million what? Not dollars

tooling a sprue is a few thousand bucks at most - about $8k to contract out to someone else. GW owns all their own equipment, so it's much cheaper. Let's say we'll overestimate and say GW has no idea what they're doing and they spend $10,000 per sprue. That means the Lizardmen have over 2000 sprues tooled? Hell let's go crazy and say they're using titanium molds and it's cut by laser diamonds mounted on jetpack sharks and they cost $20k per sprue to tool - so there's 1000 Lizardmen tools?

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

**PhantomViper**

namiel wrote:

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

Source?

**Necros**

It doesn't say lizardmen are extinct, it sounds more like they're in floating bubble worlds, so their floating bubbles can collide with the other floating bubbles all the other races have and they can fight each other.

I really dunno why everything needs to be in bubbles to explain why far away races fight each other. It's easier to just use one sentence, like "They got on a boat."

**namiel**

PhantomViper wrote:
namiel wrote:

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

Source?

former employees(same info several sources)

**PhantomViper**

namiel wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
namiel wrote:

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

Source?

former employees(same info several sources)

So what you are saying is that it takes 1 million dollars to produce a single plastic kit? How is a small company like Wyrd, that doesn't have even a fraction of that money available, capable of producing entire lines of miniatures in that material?

That number is a fabrication with no basis in reality.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necros wrote:
It doesn't say lizardmen are extinct, it sounds more like they're in floating bubble worlds, so their floating bubbles can collide with the other floating bubbles all the other races have and they can fight each other.

I really dunno why everything needs to be in bubbles to explain why far away races fight each other. It's easier to just use one sentence, like "They got on a boat."

It says that Kroak sent them "up and beyond the horizon of the world" i.e. into space.

**Rainbow Dash**

PhantomViper wrote:
namiel wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
namiel wrote:

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

Source?

former employees(same info several sources)

So what you are saying is that it takes 1 million dollars to produce a single plastic kit? How is a small company like Wyrd, that doesn't have even a fraction of that money available, capable of producing entire lines of miniatures in that material?

That number is a fabrication with no basis in reality.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necros wrote:
It doesn't say lizardmen are extinct, it sounds more like they're in floating bubble worlds, so their floating bubbles can collide with the other floating bubbles all the other races have and they can fight each other.

I really dunno why everything needs to be in bubbles to explain why far away races fight each other. It's easier to just use one sentence, like "They got on a boat."

It says that Kroak sent them "up and beyond the horizon of the world" i.e. into space.

I like to think they are on Laputa islands all peaceful and stuff. And plant flowers and some children fly there to complete the one's father's dying dreams and the empire are after them, their leader voiced by Mark Hammil...

**Baragash**

namiel wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
namiel wrote:
I dont see them squatting a whole PLASTIC range of badass minis. We are talking about molds that GW spent in the neighboorhood of $20mil to have made

20 million what? Not dollars

tooling a sprue is a few thousand bucks at most - about $8k to contract out to someone else. GW owns all their own equipment, so it's much cheaper. Let's say we'll overestimate and say GW has no idea what they're doing and they spend $10,000 per sprue. That means the Lizardmen have over 2000 sprues tooled? Hell let's go crazy and say they're using titanium molds and it's cut by laser diamonds mounted on jetpack sharks and they cost $20k per sprue to tool - so there's 1000 Lizardmen tools?

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

It was £250k. Source: I spoke to the production guys at Games Day UK just after it was released.

EDIT: and that was, what, 1998? Technology has moved on since then too.

**Necros**

Yeah but, if all of the armies of the world are suddenly on floating bubbles, aren't they all in space too?

**judgedoug**

Baragash wrote:
namiel wrote:
judgedoug wrote:
namiel wrote:
I dont see them squatting a whole PLASTIC range of badass minis. We are talking about molds that GW spent in the neighboorhood of $20mil to have made

20 million what? Not dollars

tooling a sprue is a few thousand bucks at most - about $8k to contract out to someone else. GW owns all their own equipment, so it's much cheaper. Let's say we'll overestimate and say GW has no idea what they're doing and they spend $10,000 per sprue. That means the Lizardmen have over 2000 sprues tooled? Hell let's go crazy and say they're using titanium molds and it's cut by laser diamonds mounted on jetpack sharks and they cost $20k per sprue to tool - so there's 1000 Lizardmen tools?

The base landraider kit was over $1mil to produce. Just that one kit was OVER $1mil

It was £250k. Source: I spoke to the production guys at Games Day UK just after it was released.

EDIT: and that was, what, 1998? Technology has moved on since then too.

If GW paid £250k for the Land Raider then they are idiotic, even for 1998. I'm a little shocked to learn that Aoshima Tamiya Italeri Bandai Hasegawa Airfix and the DOZENS of other plastic injection hobby kit companies including small timers in Russia are able to release so many kits per month - they must be spending billions of dollars EACH

Wargames Factory charges roughly $8000 for a milled steel tool - source: Wyrd, Kingdom Death, Dreamforge, Wild West Exodus. Renedra - which is actually run by the former head of the GW plastics division - charges $20,000 for a 3up scan sprue. Source: Perry Miniatures, Gripping Beast, Warlord Games

**ImAGeek**

Maybe it was 250k when you factor in development costs, packaging, etc... I dunno how much that would cost..?

**sourclams**

Flashman wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:

OMG! They killed Kroak

And that was a really badly written piece of text.

It does seem to confirm bubble hammer though...

Oh, Croak has the Power Cosmic.

That's cool.

I wonder when the Silver Surfer shows up?