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ancraig wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I like a simple null deployment deathwing list. I'd run Belial, 2x5 terminator squads with plasma cannons, 2x5 terminator squads with assault cannons and 3x5 deathwing knights. 36 bodies and the ability to counter deploy on turn one after seeing objectives and enemy deployment.

I'm personally a fan of belial in a giant squad w/ two heavy flamers or one and a cyclone. Drop down next to some exposed unit, and pick it up. As far as plasma cannons, I prefer cyclones. A bit more expensive (i think, don't have my dex right now), but the option for two small blasts or two krak shots vs one small blast (albiet at higher S and AP). Deathwing knights are kind of personal taste. I use regular dw termies, so i can use the benefit of vengeful strike in an alpha strike turn one. Still, 15 storm shields and the option for 3 units of 15 s 10 ap 2/1 attacks on the charge is very good. They'll wreck pretty much anything they touch on the turn they charge and smite, provided it isn't something w/ a 2++ rerollable sv.

It's a 10 point difference. The plasma cannons are also the only thing that can explode a vehicle at range. I'd upgrade the assault cannons to missile launchers first, tbh. Then I'd have 4 units that really take advantage of relentless and do decent shooting on arrival. The multiple DW Knights are a great counter to super heavy vehicles (Knights, in particular).

ImRightBehindYou wrote:Yea I like knights but I feel like I need to take advantage of the shooting of deathwing so I only run one unit. Personally I'm not a fan of the 10 man deathhwing squad with belial since if they have a vindi or plasma cannons or really any template, you might be in big trouble.

The knights have much greater returns after the initial strike and are much more resilient. I still have 4 units that take advantage of the initial shooting benefits and three more that can threaten any monster or super heavy in the game.

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:
I have no idea what those dreadnoughts are, but I feel like 30 terminators is a lot of bodies (the list I currently am running). What do those naughts do?

The Contemptor-Mortis has AV13 front, a 5+ Inv against shooting attacks, Skyfire if it stands still, and can run around with two Heavy 6 Assault Cannons and a Cyclone launcher; the most current rules are in Imperial Armour 2 2nd Edition. It's expensive and probably not tough enough for its points but it does let you engage pretty much every target effectively with firepower a TH/SS-heavy army lacks and with the Terminators up in folks' faces they usually don't stop to deal with a couple of Dreadnaughts walking along behind them.

Hmm, interesting. I may try the 10 man unit, but I just feel like target saturation helps survivability. A grav centurion squad or huge combi weapon unit can only kill 5 guys in min squads instead of 8-9. I guess it's sorta meta based ymmv type of thing. If I did I'd probably use the missile flamer loadout just since it seems a little balanced. I also don't think I'd run that dread, despite the fact it sounds pretty cool since I don't own any dataslates or anything like that. I've also been wondering if I should try my old build in 4th where I did two min ravenwing squads with meltas mostly for the teleport homers to help my mass deepstrike and then meltas if they live. And While I do like that knights are awesome at threatening the big things, opponents just tend to run away from them, so if they are running away, I at least want to shoot. Maybe I'm just deep striking poorly lol.

Trying to make DW capitalize on their shooting is inherently counter intuitive, as by their nature their shooting is extremely sub-par.
At long range (12-24) a tac squad is shooting 3 shots, for a terminators 2. At close range (1-12) they are shooting 6 shots.
At close range a terminator is 3 times less efficient than tactical marines at shooting - and there are more efficient units than tac marines out there.
This is why melee focused terminators are better than shooting ones.

Contemptor mortis dreads are good, they have good firepower and as provide some skyfire.
I have 2, but haven't really used them since they nerfed them IA vol 2. (BS5 down to BS4 really hurt, as did the 30 or so points increase).

And While I do like that knights are awesome at threatening the big things, opponents just tend to run away from them, so if they are running away, I at least want to shoot. Maybe I'm just deep striking poorly lo

This is where the landraider is most needed.

I have been playing with a 10 model Deathwing Squad with the Pair of Plasma Cannons, those List been doing...ok.
The Dual Plasma Cannon Squad always performs well taking on Transports and MCs, but the rest of my Deathwing have only been doing a moderate job.
The Dakka Banner though has been a great thing for me, though not with my Deathwing. With my Command Squad with 4 Combi-Plasmas near two Tactical Squads has always performed well.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Trying to make DW capitalize on their shooting is inherently counter intuitive, as by their nature their shooting is extremely sub-par.
At long range (12-24) a tac squad is shooting 3 shots, for a terminators 2. At close range (1-12) they are shooting 6 shots.
At close range a terminator is 3 times less efficient than tactical marines at shooting - and there are more efficient units than tac marines out there.
This is why melee focused terminators are better than shooting ones.

Contemptor mortis dreads are good, they have good firepower and as provide some skyfire.
I have 2, but haven't really used them since they nerfed them IA vol 2. (BS5 down to BS4 really hurt, as did the 30 or so points increase).

And While I do like that knights are awesome at threatening the big things, opponents just tend to run away from them, so if they are running away, I at least want to shoot. Maybe I'm just deep striking poorly lo

This is where the landraider is most needed.

Yea I agree, the shooting isn't the best, but it's ok. I'm gonna have to test out how to run land raiders with the other deathwing since I've never really done it. How should I deploy and ds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been playing with a 10 model Deathwing Squad with the Pair of Plasma Cannons, those List been doing...ok.
The Dual Plasma Cannon Squad always performs well taking on Transports and MCs, but the rest of my Deathwing have only been doing a moderate job.
The Dakka Banner though has been a great thing for me, though not with my Deathwing. With my Command Squad with 4 Combi-Plasmas near two Tactical Squads has always performed well.

What's your performance like having tac marines and deathwing? Does one weigh the other down or are they synchronized pretty well?

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have been playing with a 10 model Deathwing Squad with the Pair of Plasma Cannons, those List been doing...ok.
The Dual Plasma Cannon Squad always performs well taking on Transports and MCs, but the rest of my Deathwing have only been doing a moderate job.
The Dakka Banner though has been a great thing for me, though not with my Deathwing. With my Command Squad with 4 Combi-Plasmas near two Tactical Squads has always performed well.

What's your performance like having tac marines and deathwing? Does one weigh the other down or are they synchronized pretty well?

Not bad, neither really holds back the other. The Greenwing tends to be put to hold the objectives while the Deathwing takes to Objectives on the other side of the board. I usually I split the points 50/50 Between the Greenwing and Deathwing.

You could have a 10man DW unit with Belial.
Equip them with 2 CML because it doesn't remove your PF or your SB.
Then maybe you can have a 2-3 more 5man DW units w/ Assault Cannons Deep Striking behind cover saves, ala guerilla warfare type.
I prefer Deep Striking with my DW Termies to maximize their strengths. (Deathwing Assault)

But LR's work nicely as well. Can't go wrong with that.

I have also been trying out DWK with a Librarian with Invisibility.. WS5 T5 and needing high rolls to hit? Unstoppable!

 entityreign wrote:
You could have a 10man DW unit with Belial.
Equip them with 2 CML because it doesn't remove your PF or your SB.
Then maybe you can have a 2-3 more 5man DW units w/ Assault Cannons Deep Striking behind cover saves, ala guerilla warfare type.
I prefer Deep Striking with my DW Termies to maximize their strengths. (Deathwing Assault)

But LR's work nicely as well. Can't go wrong with that.

I have also been trying out DWK with a Librarian with Invisibility.. WS5 T5 and needing high rolls to hit? Unstoppable!

Yea, I'm trying to figure out the strategy to possibly doing ds and land raiders, but am not sure. Also, you can't really plan for invisibilty since at most you get two rolls for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, is there any sense in running a 10 man, or really just any man beyond 5 unit of knights?

I wouldn't play any more than 5-6 men squads with DW.

Your army is going to be small. Making it even more compact by putting squads together gives you less flexibility and scoring potential.

i run one ten man squad to get a large chunk exactly where they need to go with belial. Beyond that, everything is 5 man squads.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I wouldn't play any more than 5-6 men squads with DW.

Your army is going to be small. Making it even more compact by putting squads together gives you less flexibility and scoring potential.

This was my concern and hesitance for running 10 men squads, but many people here have advocated for it, so I'll at least give it a try.

deathwing pure armies are terrible, why? because things as troops are pointless if they dont cover up your exisitng problems like farsight enclave. terminators are chaning one set of issues for another and deathwing terminators are terrible compared to veterans at most things, i dont take any deathwing beyond the specialist deathwings for this reason. they get blown away by veterans

 ionusx wrote:
deathwing pure armies are terrible, why? because things as troops are pointless if they dont cover up your exisitng problems like farsight enclave. terminators are chaning one set of issues for another and deathwing terminators are terrible compared to veterans at most things, i dont take any deathwing beyond the specialist deathwings for this reason. they get blown away by veterans

I was wondering when someone would show up and point out how terrible they are.


back on subject:

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I wouldn't play any more than 5-6 men squads with DW.

Your army is going to be small. Making it even more compact by putting squads together gives you less flexibility and scoring potential.

This was my concern and hesitance for running 10 men squads, but many people here have advocated for it, so I'll at least give it a try.

I wouldn't run more than the one with belial. It's very nice to be able to place one wherever it needs to go, and they will draw fire as the other small squads walk up relatively untouched, because "OH CRAP, THERE'S A HUGE SQUAD WITH SUPER SPECIAL CHARACTER BELIAL IN IT". it's also worth noting that his warlord trait gives you an extra point if him or his unit kill the warlord in assault. You can drop next to his unit, soften it up, and charge it next turn. alternatively, it lets you place 2 of whatever heavy weapons exactly where you need them. Need to flamer a squad and shoot the back of a vehicle? You can drop exactly right to do it, no risk. just with all 2+ armor, avoid ap2 templates like the plague, or do everything you can to remove them in your alpha strike.

It's also worth noting that the bolter and chainsword dark angel subforum is super helpful.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/
^---a very useful look, if a bit dated as it was written for 6th.

 ionusx wrote:
deathwing pure armies are terrible, why? because things as troops are pointless if they dont cover up your exisitng problems like farsight enclave. terminators are chaning one set of issues for another and deathwing terminators are terrible compared to veterans at most things, i dont take any deathwing beyond the specialist deathwings for this reason. they get blown away by veterans

Everyone knows DW isn't competitive.

Your comparison is bad though. The only thing veterans are better at is bringing combi weapons in a drop pod. That i it. Tactical squads are better at shooting, and terminator squads are better at assault.

The bolter and chainsword site looks ok. I like march10k's dual landraider list, though I would change it up a bit.

This is an awesome thread! Thanks very much--having spent my Christmas holidays painting up DA, I am pumped to try some of these tactics out!

Would anyone consider running air support for these DW Terminators? I've got a pretty new toy I want to try out...

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
This is an awesome thread! Thanks very much--having spent my Christmas holidays painting up DA, I am pumped to try some of these tactics out!

Would anyone consider running air support for these DW Terminators? I've got a pretty new toy I want to try out...

Best flyer for DA is the fireraptor imo. If you can fit it in then I would say go for it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
This is an awesome thread! Thanks very much--having spent my Christmas holidays painting up DA, I am pumped to try some of these tactics out!

Would anyone consider running air support for these DW Terminators? I've got a pretty new toy I want to try out...

Best flyer for DA is the fireraptor imo. If you can fit it in then I would say go for it.

Yeah, it is pretty awesome. Not that expensive, in terms of game cost, either. I've wanted one for a while...

But I was talking about my Nephilim fighter. I know its limitations, but it's fast, and looks like it would be able to chew up infantry pretty well. But really I just worry about having such a large number of really slow models (Terminators) if someone runs a flyer-heavy force. So, it would be useful in that role, yes? Also could conceivably "soften up" a target before the Terminators get there in assault?

If you want a nephlim......just use it (or convert it) as a fireraptor. They are not in the same league.

For 45 points more the fireraptor give you:

+1 AV on all sides
+1 HP
3 more heavy bolters (which can shoot different targets)
A much better main gun (12 less range, but twin linked, +2 shots, and AP3).
2 less missiles, but with +2 str, AP2, concussive, with double the range
Hover
PotMS
Extra armour

That is a lot of stuff for 45 points.

The fireraptor can deal with almost anything on the board, the only problems being av 13/14 vehicles.

The nephilim is a bad joke in comparison. The only thing it will effectively soften up are troops with a 4+ save or worse.

If you can't get a fireraptor, but still want anti infantry firepower for your DW, I would say get an LRC.
It's fluffy, gets objective secured, is very useful for your terminators and will do the job better than a nephilim.

I will concur on the airplane front; the Nephilim is hilariously overpriced and the Fire Raptor is one of the best planes in the game today. As to the Land Raiders I personally prefer the Redeemer to the LRC; it can only carry six Terminators instead of eight, but it hits a lot harder when you've made it up close and it's a bit cheaper while retaining the Frag Assault Launchers.

Wow, that's a huge difference. Listing it out that way really makes it clear, too--thanks for taking the time. I definitely like the idea of proxying it in to test it out and see if I want to splurge on the FW model.

I've got a LRC (in Blood Angels colors) and definitely like that route. Going with the Knights in there, too, sounds like a pretty formidable combination.

Anyway, thanks again--definitely some fun (and fluffy, which I like) ideas in here.

This is from back in 6th, but still a fun batrep:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/533953.page

I really want to play my DW again now, but making a 1k list for them (we play 2k, 2 vs 2) is so difficult.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I really want to play my DW again now, but making a 1k list for them (we play 2k, 2 vs 2) is so difficult.

Synergize with whoever you're playing with. Leave the backup (AA, guns) to your teammate and they leave the frontline to you.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I really want to play my DW again now, but making a 1k list for them (we play 2k, 2 vs 2) is so difficult.

Synergize with whoever you're playing with. Leave the backup (AA, guns) to your teammate and they leave the frontline to you.

Of course. However this doesn't solve the core issues.

DW on the frontline without landraiders or inviibility are deadmeat. With mediocre shooting and no way to get into assault quickly they usually get shot up before doing anything.

At 1k points you must include belial and at least 10 terminators. This comes to 630 points.

If we want to get the terminators to actually do anything they need to have some TH/SS and a heavy weapon, these will be 25-50 points per squad.

This only leaves around 300 points to spend on other things, which is usually not enough.

I've been intrigued for a list that combines DC with an Ezekiel + 2-4 Libby formation. Throw a libby in every single squad, and power cast things like Invisi and the like using the 3+ to cast special in the Formation.

Also, you could sprinkle in some, strangely enough, Pyromancy (Extra Heavy Flamer for a DC squad isn't ever a bad thing, and really the only complete meh on the list for DC is Spontaneous Combustion, which is still, at worst, a bit extra firepower on the drop).

Also maybe sprinkle in a little Demon summoning to help model count? Maybe just one of the five?

My biggest concern, I think, would be EWO, particularly on tides. I think I would have enough psychic powers to significantly raise resiliency, but that EWO comes in before it.

Sounds like a fun list, though.

I was playing around with with a couple Melta/Tac squads in DPs Homers, and or maybe a couple of Las Cannoned out 10 man Dev Squads, maybe with a Beaconed defense line? For some reason just the thought of Riptide and Misslite EWO makes those Las Cannon squads tempting.

Yea, EWO is a problem and to the guy trashing Deathwing all I ever see you post about armies is what utter trash they are. This is a tactics page, and all of us know Deathwing aren't bringing home best general. The fireraptor is definitely good and I found out about just before your post and am almost certainly going to try it out as it seems pretty good. Unfortuantely the DA fliers are overpriced and never do anything of real note. The only new units in the book that are good imo are knights, the darkshroud is real good, and sometimes black knights. Everything else is garbage. I think the librarian formation, unless it has rules I'm not aware of wouldn't be that useful since you have to pay for the librarians in terminator armor which is at least 100 pts each and 35 more for level 2. In addition, Ezekiel only has artificer armor so he's footing it afaik. I tried playing against some horde armies over the weekend to see if I could surivive mass numbers. I beat a balanced nids list and tabled an ork army with like 160 models gaz and meganobs. I was pretty surprised with their output and the pyromancy libby was pretty good.

Yeah, good point on the artificer army, I guess I could Drop Pod him in with some green marines.

I think I could pull it off, though. Thinking Ezekial plus a Pod of Green Marines, with melta and homer, one DWK group, 6ish members, with a Divi or Pyro Lib, a couple of 5x DW squads with Div/or Pyro Libs, and a 10 group with Belial/Div Lib? At 2k I think I could get that in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would be fun to play around with DW with that many powers, though. Dropping Invisi or Shrouded + Fire Shield on your guys could be pretty hot, no pun intended. 2+ Cover Termies?

The best DW counter to EWO ionsides is landraiders.

If you bring your terminators down next to the landraider and use it to block LoS, you can simply ignore the interceptor pie plate, as it will have no target.

Lascannon devs can barely bring down a riptide at the best of times, and if there is LoS blocker terrain on their side of the field, it is unlikely you will get a shot against it all game, as it will JSJ you until all the heavy weapons are gone.

sometimes black knights.

Ravenwing Command Squads are the single best uni in the codex by quite a long way.

DWK are noteworthy, but must come with a landraider to make them worthwhile, which makes them quite an expensive choice.

A 5 man RCS with an apothecary, and a librarian on a bike, only comes to 315 points, and they can deal with just about anything in the game.

The darkshroud is pretty situational depending on your own units and your opposition. Tau and eldar don't care. If you are running tanks then a PFG is often the better choice.

The only time I use the darkshroud is with multiple squads of black knights, letting them jink to get a 2+ cover save.

How are you supposed to be a 5 man RCS unless you are including added characters? I kind of included them when I said black knights, but w/e. And yes, the Darkshroud is situational, but if you are going to not use things because Tau and Eldar don't care, I might as well not play. It's 80 pts. and against many things is decent in a Ravenwing army. BUUT, back to Deathwing. What would the list look like with all those libbies? I don't know the formation so how many dudes could you actually fit?