What would you do about the dreaded Wave Serpent

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**AnomanderRake**

morgoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:

40k is not a skill game. 40k is a list-building game. If you want to win a game because you played what you brought better instead of because you brought better stuff you should be looking at WMH.

Says who ?

What do you know about it ? How many GT have you won ? Maybe - just maybe - you don't know everything about 40K.

And even then, what if list-building, which includes projecting possible combat scenarios and applicable tactics, was a skill. (no, really...)

I do know I've lost a lot of 40k games because I brought the wrong models. I've never lost a game of Warmachine because I brought the wrong models, but I've lost a lot because I fethed up gameplay.

I acknowledge list-building is a skill. My point is that what happens after your models are bought, built, painted, and put on the tabletop is the least skill-reliant of any wargame I've ever played (Bolt Action, 40k, WHFB, LotR, WMH, Infinity, BFG, AI, Mordheim, and one of my own creation, on the off chance anyone's keeping score)

**Happyjew**

morgoth wrote:
Happyjew wrote:

Your math is a bit off.
Scatter Lasers will generate 3.556 hits. Shield will average 4.5 shots per turn, for another 4 hits. Of this you need (against SM no difference between the two), 2+ to Wound, so 7.556 hits becomes 6.297 Wounds. Of these a SM will save 66% of them so 2.0989 Marines dead per turn. Overpowered for a MBT? No. However the Serpent is not a Main Battle Tank. It is a transport.

And that matters only because you don't want to let the CAD go even though it's been dead for a long time.

Guess what, ScreamerStar is also a CAD abuse, as are Imperial Knights.

What does somebody's incorrect math and my counter-claim that the Serpent is a Transport have to do with CADs?

**AnomanderRake**

Happyjew wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Happyjew wrote:

Your math is a bit off.
Scatter Lasers will generate 3.556 hits. Shield will average 4.5 shots per turn, for another 4 hits. Of this you need (against SM no difference between the two), 2+ to Wound, so 7.556 hits becomes 6.297 Wounds. Of these a SM will save 66% of them so 2.0989 Marines dead per turn. Overpowered for a MBT? No. However the Serpent is not a Main Battle Tank. It is a transport.

And that matters only because you don't want to let the CAD go even though it's been dead for a long time.

Guess what, ScreamerStar is also a CAD abuse, as are Imperial Knights.

What does somebody's incorrect math and my counter-claim that the Serpent is a Transport have to do with CADs?

I'm confused. We're griping about Wave Serpents model-by-model, CAD has been dead since the 6e Inquisition book at least.

**SGTPozy**

Quickjager wrote:
If you want to win, you play Eldar; simple fact. Also I just looked at the NOVA results... majority Eldar... again.

Well, IK do have a better win rate in other tourneys, so you're not necessarily correct.

**SirDonlad**

AnomanderRake wrote:

40k is not a skill game. 40k is a list-building game. If you want to win a game because you played what you brought better instead of because you brought better stuff you should be looking at WMH.

that is SO not why i play 30k!

i want to have a laugh with my mates, enjoy the story we set up - i shudder every time i think of that phrase "forge the narrative..." but honestly, that's actually the fun bit.

i think its relevant to say about why i hate 'monopoly' - you all start playing thinking "yeah, lets play a game!" and what this game really boils down to, is slowly grinding down your mates financially in a simulated fiscal world - nobody really enjoys that apart from the winner.

which brings me back to 30k: if its all about winning then one of the players is not going to have enjoyed themselves.

so i see every game as a crazy, crazy side-story in the hectic grimdark. just the way me and my mates like it!

plus with me playing mechanicum, relic and objective grab type scenarios make much more sense.

**Lobokai**

There's skill in 40k, just like there's skill in hunting but there's some serious elements of luck. But if there's a deer hunting competition, one guy gets a shotgun, the other a butter knife... skill kinda goes out the window.

SirDonlad wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:

40k is not a skill game. 40k is a list-building game. If you want to win a game because you played what you brought better instead of because you brought better stuff you should be looking at WMH.

that is SO not why i play 30k!

i want to have a laugh with my mates, enjoy the story we set up - i shudder every time i think of that phrase "forge the narrative..." but honestly, that's actually the fun bit.

i think its relevant to say about why i hate 'monopoly' - you all start playing thinking "yeah, lets play a game!" and what this game really boils down to, is slowly grinding down your mates financially in a simulated fiscal world - nobody really enjoys that apart from the winner.

which brings me back to 30k: if its all about winning then one of the players is not going to have enjoyed themselves.

so i see every game as a crazy, crazy side-story in the hectic grimdark. just the way me and my mates like it!

plus with me playing mechanicum, relic and objective grab type scenarios make much more sense.

Totally agree, there's a feel to 30k that's so refreshing and different to 40k... until you've seen it, it can't be explained.

**koooaei**

AnomanderRake wrote:

Battlewaggon vs. Wave Serpent
Price: Wave Serpent. The Battlewaggon is many things but cheap is not one of them.
Speed: Wave Serpent. Skimmer type and mobility upgrades.
Firepower vs. Light Infantry: Battlewaggon. A Large Blast and a hell of a lot of Big Shootaz, even with Orky BS.
Firepower vs. Heavy Infantry: This one might actually go to the Battlewaggon. An AP3 Large Blast is pretty damn useful.
Firepower vs. Light Vehicles: Wave Serpent. The Battlewaggon can't put out the volume at S6-7.
Firepower vs. Heavy Vehicles: Five BS2 S8 shots, one of which is Ordnance, or a twin-linked BS4 S8 Lance shot? The math is telling me the Wave Serpent wins this one, weirdly enough.
Durability: The Battlewaggon may have AV14 front and an extra Hull Point, but it's still 10 rear and has no Jink, I can't honestly award it Durability. Point to the Wave Serpent.
Transport Utility: Battlewaggon. Twenty Orks charging out of an open-topped transport? I don't care who or what you are, that's a threatening thing to deal with.
Price-Adjusted: Probably more points to the Wave Serpent here, simply because the Battlewaggon has to pay for its guns.
Synergy Bonus: Nope.
Final Score: Wave Serpent.

It's wrong to compare battlewagon with a wave serpent. They have completely different roles - BW is an assault transport delivery. The most you'd get is 1-2 guns to eat weapon destroyed or a wierd ap3 large blast in case you're running something shooty inside which ain't happening that often and is often not the best way to spend 30 points. It's s7 and 24 range. And it surely doesn't ignore cover. Wave serpent wins the firepower fight hands down.

BW's strength is that it's an opentopped transport with 20 transport capacity that has av12 which ain't bad for orks and ability to position av14 front towards the part of your enemy's forces (let's face it, side armor is darn huge and you basically have around 30 degrees of av14 front arc at best).

**Drasius**

morgoth wrote:

...I'm using them alright, but Serpents really die to assault...

And just how do I manage to get the Serpent into assault range? There have been numerous claims of Tacs grenading them to death on rear armour in this thread, but I might as well say khornate warp talons will pwn a squad of MP Crisis suits. Technically it's true, but there is no way to actually get them into combat. If you're stupid enough to drive serpents within 18" for any reason other than dumping Fragons out and popping a land raider/knight/monolith or contesting/stealing objectives on T5, then it's no surprise that you don't think Eldar are overpowered. There is no other reason I can think of that a unit with a 48" move range should ever be assaulted by stuff that moves a maximum of 18" a turn.

**Martel732**

Against a good foe, there is essentially no way to assault Wave Serpents.

**Terminal**

Drasius wrote:
morgoth wrote:

...I'm using them alright, but Serpents really die to assault...

And just how do I manage to get the Serpent into assault range? There have been numerous claims of Tacs grenading them to death on rear armour in this thread, but I might as well say khornate warp talons will pwn a squad of MP Crisis suits. Technically it's true, but there is no way to actually get them into combat. If you're stupid enough to drive serpents within 18" for any reason other than dumping Fragons out and popping a land raider/knight/monolith or contesting/stealing objectives on T5, then it's no surprise that you don't think Eldar are overpowered. There is no other reason I can think of that a unit with a 48" move range should ever be assaulted by stuff that moves a maximum of 18" a turn.

Ah...AFAIK, the Wave Serpent can only go a maximum of 30" a turn. It's the jetbikes that can go 48".

On topic, I quite agree with the idea of it becoming an invulnerable save. The shooting profile isn't really needed, IMO, and the serpent would still be pretty good without it. The turning pens into glances could also be gotten rid of if it becomes an invulnerable save - because it'd still be a little bit too powerful in combination with Spirit Stones.

**morgoth**

Martel732 wrote:
Against a good foe, there is essentially no way to assault Wave Serpents.

Against an opponent that is much better than you, there is no way to assault Wave Serpents.

Against an opponent your level, you'll find that it's not that hard to get a charge with the right units (no slow assault units without transport of course).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drasius wrote:
morgoth wrote:

...I'm using them alright, but Serpents really die to assault...
If you're stupid enough to drive serpents within 18" for any reason other than dumping Fragons out and popping a land raider/knight/monolith or contesting/stealing objectives on T5, then it's no surprise that you don't think Eldar are overpowered. There is no other reason I can think of that a unit with a 48" move range should ever be assaulted by stuff that moves a maximum of 18" a turn.

1. Do you know of another way to dump the fragons and pop a land raider ? Because that's already two assaultable Wave Serpents guaranteed, doesn't sound that bad to me.
2. There is a 66% chance to have a T6, so essentially, bumrushing an objective on T5 is almost equal to giving up T6.
3. Wave Serpents may move 30" a turn, but they can't move more than 12" in the first movement and they're 7" long. In other words they can barely jump over a thin line of enemy infantry directly 1" ahead of them.

If you can't get some Wave Serpents in CC, you're just doing it wrong.

I'm not saying that getting them in CC will net you a victory of course, but thinking they're impossible to catch just reveals how limited your tactics are.

**dethric**

Smitty0305 wrote:
I posted my thoughts on the topic here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_Overpowered_is_the_Wave_Serpent

I added a comparison with tank hunting, Transport hunting and MC hunting, too bad the Venom used in the comparison cannot handle tanks at all, and is only slightly better at T6 3+ MCs.
I thought that it might be fair to compare some different types of units, since the ability to kill MEQ is not the standard by which a transports efficiency should be measured with.

I also fixed the "looking at the results part) and rewrote the conclusion to reflect my new findings that you missed. The math is a bit off though since i used your numbers and you only provided decimals instead of fractions, sorry for that.

**Martel732**

Welcome to ignore Morgoth. Have a nice and lengthy stay. Protip: go look down your nose at someone else.