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The problem with MEQ's isn't their wounds, and giving them wounds would probably be a nightmare for large armies.

A better idea would be to just balance the bloody game already, kill the power creep, and stop armies from being able to spam plasma and melta weapons for cheap. Make them expensive and something you need to truly plan around as a more limited resource then current.

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa 2+ power armor? That would be insane, CC would become impossible for any non-marine player.

of course marines would go up in points dramatically but it would match the fluff. a 3+ armour save means the armour isn't working 33% of the time, think about it like that. I for one think its ridiculous how maybe 6 marines will die from a few volleys from a squad, marines die like guardsman die in the books.

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

Something I have thought about a lot and couldn't agree more. Also along with your stat lines, power armor should be 2+ and terminator 2+ rerollable 4+. Then the game would match the fluff and I for one would happily take a huge point increase. But GW will not do it...

It might match some of the more outlandish and ridiculous fluff, but would make for a very poor reflection of a lot of other fluff, not to mention do nothing positive for the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

Something I have thought about a lot and couldn't agree more. Also along with your stat lines, power armor should be 2+ and terminator 2+ rerollable 4+. Then the game would match the fluff and I for one would happily take a huge point increase. But GW will not do it...

It might match some of the more outlandish and ridiculous fluff, but would make for a very poor reflection of a lot of other
fluff, not to mention do nothing positive for the game.

I must ask you. Do you firmly believe its right that power armour only works 66% of the time?

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa 2+ power armor? That would be insane, CC would become impossible for any non-marine player.

of course marines would go up in points dramatically but it would match the fluff. a 3+ armour save means the armour isn't working 33% of the time, think about it like that. I for one think its ridiculous how maybe 6 marines will die from a few volleys from a squad, marines die like guardsman die in the books.

Why can you see my Striking Scorpions from the other side of the table? Fluffwise you shouldn't be able to see them until it's too late.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa 2+ power armor? That would be insane, CC would become impossible for any non-marine player.

of course marines would go up in points dramatically but it would match the fluff. a 3+ armour save means the armour isn't working 33% of the time, think about it like that. I for one think its ridiculous how maybe 6 marines will die from a few volleys from a squad, marines die like guardsman die in the books.

Why can you see my Striking Scorpions from the other side of the table? Fluffwise you shouldn't be able to see them until it's too late.

the only reason I shouldn't be able to see them is if they're infiltrating, not walking in plain sight. And if you infiltrate well, I wont see them till its too late, (12 inch infiltrate distance without los)

And IG should probably more artillery than you've got units, and said arty will be a few kilometers and blah blah blah.

I think having more Guardsmen Spotters could replicate that very well. It would be a interesting trade-off, small, possibly mobile, high-value targets and the arty would be untargetable. BUT they would... you know... have the statline of a Guardsmen. If you want to kick the idea around a bit more open something up in Propsed Rules, I'll help kick the concept around abit.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And IG should probably more artillery than you've got units, and said arty will be a few kilometers and blah blah blah.

Well no because then it wouldn't be fair points or a fair game. Buffing marines whilst adding points still makes it fair and fluffy

Meh, 3+ is fluffy enough, shows that PA protects well, but its not perfect, and that there's better protection out there, anything that is 2+.

66% thing is just gamey­.

 Bobthehero wrote:


66% thing is just gamey­.

What do you mean by that?

Its just a game mechanic, not meant to be taken litteraly as far as fluff goes, but its a good way to show that PA isn't perfect.

Also 2+ would make so many weapons that are good at killing SM not good its not even funny.

Oh okay I see what you are trying to say

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

Something I have thought about a lot and couldn't agree more. Also along with your stat lines, power armor should be 2+ and terminator 2+ rerollable 4+. Then the game would match the fluff and I for one would happily take a huge point increase. But GW will not do it...

It might match some of the more outlandish and ridiculous fluff, but would make for a very poor reflection of a lot of other
fluff, not to mention do nothing positive for the game.

I must ask you. Do you firmly believe its right that power armour only works 66% of the time?

That 66% of the time isn't a direct correlation to an actual bullet or shot striking the armor and deflecting. Just like an Assault Cannon isn't only firing 4 bullets.

With that abstraction in mind, yes, that 66% success rate given the other realities of this game, sounds right to me. Power armor isn't invulnerable, there are weak spots (elbows, neck, lower abdomen, back of the knee, the huge vulnerable powerpack, etc), repeated hits can defeat it, shots may inflict tissue or bone damage even if they don't penetrate, etc. A 3+ works for me as powerful protective armor. I've never felt my Chaos Space Marines or any other 3+sv unit I own to be under-armored. When a wall of fire (from weapons roughly equivalent to modern day assault rifles) from a full squad of guardsmen may down a single marine on average (20 shots, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 failed saves) at point blank ranges, that's pretty powerful to me.

hmmmm... okay then

Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with MEQ's isn't their wounds,.

The problem with them isn't any kind of weakness, what with them being the statistically best army as evidenced by tournaments since their most recent codex was released.

Oooh, Wave Serpents are scary, but the Marines still always win somehow?

Gravstars are good. Not marines.

Take away Grav and marines will die off... seriously that is what 40k is reduced to. I still fething hate grav... entire army gets wounded on 3+ essentially.

 Quickjager wrote:
Take away Grav and marines will die off... seriously that is what 40k is reduced to. I still fething hate grav... entire army gets wounded on 3+ essentially.

It's the hard-counter to the silly 6e-era MCs. Take away grav and Riptides/Dreadknights become a lot more powerful than they were a moment ago.

 ChazSexington wrote:
It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

with the size of the new space marine bases it shouldn't be too hard to mark remaining wounds with a small railway system - two wounds if you can see the train, one wound if not...

SirDonlad wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
It'd be impossible to keep track of the wounds.

with the size of the new space marine bases it shouldn't be too hard to mark remaining wounds with a small railway system - two wounds if you can see the train, one wound if not...

Plus new wound allocation.

That said I tried a system for Aegis where most infantry had two wounds and heavier infantry (Marines, for instance) had three, everything became very, very slow. It's getting dropped for the second version.

The counter to grav is orkses and IG schmucks. But everyone wants to use their Riptides and Wraithknights.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Take away Grav and marines will die off... seriously that is what 40k is reduced to. I still fething hate grav... entire army gets wounded on 3+ essentially.

It's the hard-counter to the silly 6e-era MCs. Take away grav and Riptides/Dreadknights become a lot more powerful than they were a moment ago.

...Did I say anything else differently? Defensive much?

Give Riptides and Dreadknights 3+ armor and we don't need grav. Krak missiles do something again.

Ain't it too fat of you to get a 2-wound marine for 20 pts?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The problem with MEQ's isn't their wounds,.

The problem with them isn't any kind of weakness, what with them being the statistically best army as evidenced by tournaments since their most recent codex was released.

Oooh, Wave Serpents are scary, but the Marines still always win somehow?

I'd imagine that's due to drop pod lists with suicide grav and melta. Otherwise infinite daemons or invisible eldar infantry should take the cake as best army.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I have long wished for GW to make all marines have more true to the fluff statlines, but then they wouldn't be able to sell as many models.


My theorized true marine statline would look something like this.

Tactical Marine 20 pts

WS: 4 BS: 4 Str:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Night Vision

Terminators and Veterans would both gain +1WS, BS, and attack. Terminators would also gain a wound and +1T(and cost 55 pts each minimum)

No character would have fewer than 4 wounds.

That does not seem far off the mark - although there are other units that need looking at as well....

Dark Eldar Wyches should be more like:

WS: 6 BS: 6 Str: 3 T:3 W:1 I:6 A:2 Ld:8

Special rules(in addition to current rules): FnP(6+), Poison CC Attacks (2+)

Hekatrxices would gain +1WS, BS, and attack.

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

 redrooster148 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor should be 4+ armor on a D10. Then you could have terminators at 2+ on a D10 and something like sanguinary guard and artificer armor at 3+ on a D10. The D6 system has created a situation where the space marines can't be modeled properly in the game. The D6 doesn't have enough dynamic range for the number of models in the game now.

This I really like, this is a good preposition and it now I think about it, a d6 dice really doesn't have a very dynamic range. Think of the possibilities, every unit in the game would be represented so much better

I throw 50-60 dice on charge. On average. Sometimes 20-30, sometimes 100. d10 would be a bit too unwieldy to both store and use. That's one of the reasons GW moved to d6. It's perfectly fine in skirmish and small squads. But when youhave a possibility to have 30+ strong squads, it's becoming a problem.