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 RiTides wrote:
I think the key term here is "FLGS". I support local stores as often as I can, but if a store owner is unfriendly / unreasonable / etc, it doesn't make sense to pay massively more than you could otherwise to support them. Unfortunately, our local store has fallen into the "UFLGS" category for some time, and it's surrounded by other high quality stores, to boot.
...
but customer relations is just that, a relationship, and the store owner should be catering to what the local playerbase wants to buy / play, who then in turn should support their store when possible.

Nod. My "Local" store is pretty much just a UFLGS. The last time I went in there, the owner manually marked up several cans of spray that I was buying buy three bucks each. They were tagged at the old price, and still at that on his system, meaning they were bought for the old wholesale price, etc. Aside from the fact that this is actually illegal where I live, it also pretty solidly marked the last time I'll go there. He's not especially convenient to get to, and at this point I'll go to larger inconvenience just to not buy from him, since he's an entitled witch.

The funny thing is that I actually have great (customer service) relationships with three other "FLGS" - one in Cardiff (internationally), and two in Sydney (interstate). We pay federal tax for local purchases either way, so it's not like a US situation of buying from out of state saving money. But it's amusing to me that the three places I buy most of my stuff (that's not direct from Manufacturer) are actually FLGS places who also sell online, and are much more friendly (and cheaper) than the local douchebags. I'm sure some FLGS in my city are run by nice people, and Nic at Eureka is a great guy, but at least three of the local stores fail that test quite badly.




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 insaniak wrote:

 dameanone wrote:
In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can?

Most people won't ask for a discount, no.

If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.

It depends what you're buying and where you're buying it. Without being a directed insult, if you're going into JB, Harveys or The Good Guys and paying sticker price on a Television, all I can say is "more fool you". Ticket price for larger items have "negotiation" built into them on several levels, from manufacturer RRP to ticket price to what they'll actually "discount" it to quite happily. Of course, when they can get full ticket or even manufacturer price for it, they're happy to. I occasionally batch-buy even small electronics for my work and if I'm buying 2 or 4 digital cameras you bet that when I ask "What can you do if I buy 4 of these?" they find that they can do something worthwhile.

 Ketara wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.

A more accurate analogy would be you walking into a four star restaurant with a Burger King you bought outside, and then complaining when the restaurant owner tells you to buy some food there. "Honestly man, just because you have a nice dining area and great waiters is no reason for me to buy food here! You need to do cheaper food like Burger King down the road! I'm only sitting here because the chair and table are empty at the moment!"

The problem with restaurant analogies is there is a large disconnect between buying a gaming product and then using it which doesn't exist in a restaurant. You don't buy food from a restaurant and then come back weeks, months or maybe even years later to eat it. You don't buy food from a restaurant and then go online to buy more stuff to supplement the meal because the restaurant didn't stock all the food you wanted to eat. You don't buy food, take it home for a few weeks to assemble it, leave it on the shelf for a few months and then come back to the store to eat it.

I think gaming tables in stores are more akin to pool tables in pubs, but even that's not a great analogy. It's probably somewhere in between.

That's why I try and avoid using analogies or drawing comparisons with other common retail practices because I can't think of any that genuinely are analogous.

It really strikes me as odd that more stores don't actually look at charging for gaming space (and subsequently, providing gaming space which is worth paying for).

I bowl, golf, shoot pool, go to the target range, play a bit of tennis... I pay to play for those quite often. Most also sell the materials to play with. But they are generally worth paying for.

The bar of making it worthwhile is a bit higher, as you have to be able to overcome various free options - but I really don't see it as a hard sell.

WayneTheGame wrote:

1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax

Heh.

The store that I was bitching about earlier does just this - if you order something in, he puts it on the shelf when it comes in. If it's sold before you get there, he figures he'll just order it again and he got an extra sale out of it. I ordered a couple hundred dollars of Reaper stuff and he did this to me, and I've seen him do it to people who have ordered whole FoW armies. What he didn't manage to see was that when I came in (all of 2? 3? days later) and he told me this, I only bothered to buy about 50% of what I'd ordered since he never bothered to keep track of what I'd ordered personally and just out it all out, and decided never to order anything via him again. This was long before the Spray can situation, and fairly early after he opened up.

Probably worth mentioning that I never gamed in store, aside from one infinity demo, and never had any interest in doing so. I had the opinion that if it cost about the same as mail ordering, including postage (and we don't have 30 or 40% options here) then I'd happily support the local guy, just because - and without any interest in his tables. After a few months when I told him how much I sometimes spend and what he thought about matching online prices he told me that he'd be willing to look at it with a minimum order of $500, because for any less it wouldn't be worth his time to physically taking the time to order it - and quoted me taking an hour or at least half an hour to order $500 worth of product from his suppliers. Which amused me since I can order things quite easily myself without it taking nearly that long.

 insaniak wrote:
Ultimately, of course, what is important is how the store owner views that gaming space. If he sees it as a sales tool, then he needs to make a value judgement as to whether or not that tool is paying for itself, and has no reason for complaint if people use it without buying. If he wants to offer it instead as a perk for his paying customers, that's totally fine... but in that case, this needs to be made clear to everyone that walks in the door. Otherwise, you get the disconnect we're seeing here.

Yep, I agree. Even if I don't feel compelled to buy from a store because I use the tables, I will buy there out of convenience because I'm already there. If I need something and remember that I need it I'll buy it in the store because I'm already there (which I might not be if it weren't for the tables). If I need a paint I'll buy a paint because it's more convenient than going home and ordering it online. If I'm hungry/thirsty and the store sells food/drinks I'll buy the food/drinks.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It really strikes me as odd that more stores don't actually look at charging for gaming space (and subsequently, providing gaming space which is worth paying for).
I bowl, golf, shoot pool, go to the target range, play a bit of tennis... I pay to play for those quite often. Most also sell the materials to play with. But they are generally worth paying for.
The bar of making it worthwhile is a bit higher, as you have to be able to overcome various free options - but I really don't see it as a hard sell.

I think it depends a lot on your locale and the local gamer mores. I'd pay to go to a club. If I gamed in a store regularly, I'd buy most of my new products there (which is what I did in the past).


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt

I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.

You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.

At a guess, I'd suggest it's the people who game there regularly, always have the latest & greatest GW model, etc, and tend to only buy ever a White Dwarf or a pot of paint when they're in.


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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore. But games stores if they want to be considered must offer To survive. But they also must make us want to buy your product.
Also, burger King and a Fourstar are not the same. But all GO product is no matter where I get it. Ando what is the point of good customer service if I know I want what I want.

For you there might be no difference. For me, I'll go out of my way to buy or not buy from places based on the quality of their customer service. I'm a pretty knowledgeable customer, as are most of us here - so it doesn't even take much more than being reasonable, polite and efficient.

 Azazelx wrote:
The store that I was bitching about earlier does just this - if you order something in, he puts it on the shelf when it comes in. If it's sold before you get there, he figures he'll just order it again and he got an extra sale out of it. I ordered a couple hundred dollars of Reaper stuff and he did this to me, and I've seen him do it to people who have ordered whole FoW armies. What he didn't manage to see was that when I came in (all of 2? 3? days later) and he told me this, I only bothered to buy about 50% of what I'd ordered since he never bothered to keep track of what I'd ordered personally and just out it all out, and decided never to order anything via him again. This was long before the Spray can situation, and fairly early after he opened up.

Probably worth mentioning that I never gamed in store, aside from one infinity demo, and never had any interest in doing so. I had the opinion that if it cost about the same as mail ordering, including postage (and we don't have 30 or 40% options here) then I'd happily support the local guy, just because - and without any interest in his tables. After a few months when I told him how much I sometimes spend and what he thought about matching online prices he told me that he'd be willing to look at it with a minimum order of $500, because for any less it wouldn't be worth his time to physically taking the time to order it - and quoted me taking an hour or at least half an hour to order $500 worth of product from his suppliers. Which amused me since I can order things quite easily myself without it taking nearly that long.

It's pretty funny that he could be that clueless, but this is why shops go out of business. Since I don't game in store, I don't bother giving local guys "right of first refusal" any more. Sure, I'll check their clearance bins and Black Friday sales, but my favorite is the inevitable Going Out of Business Sale. .

If you go to the FLGS regularly, and use the tables that they provide, you should spend money there. If it really is an UFLGS then that sucks; but that doesn't mean true FLGS do not deserve your money.

 Geemoney wrote:
If you go to the FLGS regularly, and use the tables that they provide, you should spend money there. If it really is an UFLGS then that sucks; but that doesn't mean true FLGS do not deserve your money.

Sure, I never claimed that - and in the past when I used to game in store I bought most of my stuff from that same store. But simply existing locally doesn't somehow entitle a store to my custom. (Which is what this particular guy's opinion was). Nevermind that I'd been almost exclusively been buying online and playing at home for years before he happened to open up locally. Like I said, though - I support several F(L)GS - they're just not my local ones.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.

The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.

If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

Seeing your location, I have to ask if you were familiar with Mercenary Market.

The harsh truth is a small business or sole trader operating from a rented store can't hope to compete with the prices of an online store that has the advantages of:
1) Not needing a premises, except for a storage facility.
2) Being able to order in bulk with all the cost savings that come with that, and being able to net more buyers as a result.
3) Lower staff overheads
3) Can close or relocate fairly readily with no major losses

I think the future for FLGS's is be to band together for the purposes of ordering. Combine their orders. That would at least enable them to get kits at the same prices as online stores. Easier said than done, I know, but its a good idea in theory at least.

My local FLGS has probably half it's floorspace for WH 40k/Fantasy, but most of the business through the doors is MTG. I was buying everything including my actual 40k models from them to show support and keep them around. The discount was $5 off if you spent at least $50 on GWS, so really something like <10%. And I never game there.

They just moved to a flat 5% of everything in the store (MTG, board games, GWS, etc) as a store reward deal. So at this point I can no longer justify getting my GWS stuff there at 5% discount when I can get 20% discount online. I appreciate the FLGS is there when I need a brush or a certain paint right now and can't wait, but I really only buy GWS from them. (or my weekly White Dwarf for that matter)

This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.

Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.

 dameanone wrote:

This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.

Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.

The big issue with that is that (at least here) you need a special license to serve food, which is more money. There's one store that is large enough to have like a small little cafe kind of area and either they make food or order catering, but most shops don't do it because of the extra overhead. I think it's a brilliant idea though. Of course, my FLGS is located in a mall so it's not really worth it for him to also have hot food since you just walk 10 minutes down the mall to the food court.

Also, most game shops tend to set up shop in an area with places to eat for precisely those reasons

I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.

 dameanone wrote:

This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.

Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.

I've always thought that the best business model for a FLGS would be one akin to a movie theater or gas station. The margins on movie tickets and gasoline are small, the money is made from concessions and the convenience store, that's where the margins are high. There's a reason more gas stations are incorporating fast food and order screens at the pump and that more movie theaters are expanding their concession fare.

I think running a game store successfully is only going to get harder. For me personally, I rarely go to the FLGS near me or the GW store and it's not because they aren't nice stores but these days between kickstarters and companies/sculptors with their own webstores there isn't much of a need for me to go to the store to get what I want. The internet has done a really good job of making the middleman irrelevent and that puts a FLGS in a tough spot. Of course this is all anecdotal. If I had more hobby time I'd need more hobby supplies more often and would be more interested in gaming and would therefore go to the FLGS more often and spend more money there.

It's what we do




Nobody denies that you have to do something extra to pull people in

As I said my biggest issue is that because the models tend to be expensive (not even talking GW here as I don't play 40k anymnore), saving $75 on an order is a huge deal when the alternative is saving barely $10 because of sales tax and a small discount. It would be unreasonable to expect the same 30% discount, and of course the store has to charge sales tax because government, but that factors in determining what I buy from the store and what I buy online.

My general buying style is as I said previously: I buy small things and the occasional unit box at the store; more than that or if I'm making a large order and I'll order it online every time to save the most money on an already-expensive purchase. Or if I need things the store can't easily get (specific paints from a range they don't carry, for example) I'll order those online as well.

I like browsing and looking at tangible stuff, and I'm always wary about options disappearing, so I'll try and by in person where I can (whether that's from a game store or convention).

The only time I'll resort to online is if it's something I can't get/can't order in, or it's something I probably wouldn't buy at local prices anyway but is on sale online.

Thankfully, there's a couple of decent FLGS's near my work with a good stock, and something like 5 conventions a year.
Only one FLGS has gaming space and hosts a few tournaments I attend, but I always make sure to try to buy something when I'm in (be it sodas or blister packs or paint) since I'm not paying for the table.

I don't have a friendly local gaming store, but I do have a couple of friendly local model stores. (well, local is relative. They're both on the same street... Over fifty miles away) I try to buy from them when possible. It helps that I'm not buying GW models at GW prices, which they don't stock anyway. (not with a GW shop a few dozen yards away) It doesn't help that most of what I buy (relevant to my gaming interests) is an occasional box of 1/72 hard styrene WWII minis, hidden among the few boxes of 15mms, and that I've, ah... learned to be cautious about ordering through them.

That said, I was in the aforementioned GW yesterday, and despite the fact I usually buy only a few cheap second-hand GW minis off ebay, and not for their games, I walked out with one of those £13.50 plastic characters. Partly because I think I suffered some kind of episode, but also because the manager is pretty great. Remembers me although I go in once in a blue moon to buy a pot of paint or a BL book, and took the time to explain some things about End Times and show off some of the models. If there were any FLGSs in the vicinity, they could use a few guys half as good as him.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.

The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.

If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

Seeing your location, I have to ask if you were familiar with Mercenary Market.

That was merely the latest to go belly up:
- GW LA Bunker
- Pair a Dice Games (nicest clubhouse I've ever seen)
and more, and more in the area.

Lots of gaming space at MM, though, big space, maybe 25% actual retail? Thin stock, too.

Mercenary Market went belly-up?

I think that place was owned by ex-NFL punter Kris Kluwe. Maybe after he lost his punting gig and didn't get a new one he decided to consolidate his finances into something a bit less risky.

 Easy E wrote:
Mercenary Market went belly-up?

I think that place was owned by ex-NFL punter Kris Kluwe. Maybe after he lost his punting gig and didn't get a new one he decided to consolidate his finances into something a bit less risky.

Yup. Mercenary Market had their "Going out of Business" clearance sale back in April, 2014 - nearly a year ago. I managed to snag a Super Dungeon Explore expansion at good discount.

It was. Not sure what he's up to right now. Seems like he'd make a great off-color commentator, but he kinda burned some bridges in the NFL when he left...

 thegreatchimp wrote:
The harsh truth is a small business or sole trader operating from a rented store can't hope to compete with the prices of an online store that has the advantages of:

And yet the largest and most popular webstores have almost always been businesses that also had physical stores...


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.

The store I worked at had hot food, but it was just frozen stuff that could be chucked in the microwave, like those ghastly roast-beef-and-gravy rolls that used to exist solely in the dodgier service stations... Sold them by the truckload.

 insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.

The store I worked at had hot food, but it was just frozen stuff that could be chucked in the microwave, like those ghastly roast-beef-and-gravy rolls that used to exist solely in the dodgier service stations... Sold them by the truckload.

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

No? What's not to like about a spicy wrap of meat and beans and cheese?

Ah well. America.

Come to think of it, Indian "burritos" would probably sell pretty well. Pork and beans in extra spicy vindaloo curry seasoning in a flour wrap.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

You mean "if you want to commit financial suicide, the less table space, the better". If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store? The only way a physical retail store can even attempt to compete with online stores (which offer the same products at a cheaper price) is by hosting a community that gets people into the store and gives them a sense of obligation to make charity donations in return. And you can't do that without gaming space.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store?

Some people prefer to see what they're buying. And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.

The only way a physical retail store can even attempt to compete with online stores (which offer the same products at a cheaper price) is by hosting a community that gets people into the store ...

Or by offering the same product at the same price. Or a slightly higher price that is balanced out by the 'have it now' factor.

Which is easier to do if you're not paying a whole bunch of rent on a whopping great floor space for tables.

 insaniak wrote:
Some people prefer to see what they're buying.

But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.

And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.

Which is a valid point, if you're talking about a store that you're already visiting for their gaming space. There's a lot of value in being able to pick up a new model/paint/whatever and have it immediately, as long as it's actually immediate. If you aren't already going to the store you have to make a special trip out there once you decide you want something, and that means waiting and having to pay extra for gas to get there and back on top of the higher retail store prices. I guess in some situations that's still adding a bit of value, but how often is that going to be enough to generate sales and pay your rent?

Or by offering the same product at the same price.

How often can a physical retail store do this? The retail store almost inevitably has higher expenses than an online store, so how are they matching the online store's prices without either losing money or making so little profit that they're better off running a different business instead?

Which is easier to do if you're not paying a whole bunch of rent on a whopping great floor space for tables.

And this is GW's kind of thinking: take out most of the reasons to visit the store, and hope that you save enough money to still make a profit on your greatly reduced pool of customers. That might work in places where there's only one physical store within reasonable driving distance, but if you have nearby competition with gaming space (very common in the US) you've just committed financial suicide and sent all of your customers elsewhere.

Also, rent isn't nearly as simple as that. Yeah, you can have a smaller store if you don't have the tables, but since you no longer have the best reason for people to come into your store you probably need to put your store in a better location with higher rent. Stores with lots of gaming space can get away with renting the back corner of a random strip mall because people are willing to make a little extra effort to go find them. But if there's no reason to go to your store besides buying the thing you want you'd better have it in a really convenient location. And you'll probably need a high-traffic area so that you can offset the customers you lost by removing your gaming space with random people walking in and starting a new hobby.