Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I fully intend on dropping a Toxicrene on them. A hypertoxic one would be even nicer (5+ Insta kill).

Call it a bondage fight!

I think I am most jealous of their cost.

luke1705 wrote:
Byte if you just search the interwebs, the leaks are all over the place. I'll be at my FLGS tomorrow to sneak a peak myself. I don't know where the response to your previous comment went (deleted I suppose) but it''s not crazy for someone to err on the side of caution with copyrighted material. Technically in the context of a review, you can quote snippets, but we do run a bit of a fine line here since everyone wants to know and talk about everything.

Also, the OP did post most of the relevant changes for wraiths in his opening remarks. They are now T5 instead of T4, potentially have access to reanimation protocols (which now effectively work like FNP, but can only ever be a 4+ at max and one higher (so a 5+ in the case of a 4+) in the event of instant death). They have higher initiative and are not denied by charging through terrain so combat is more difficult. Overall, they're just really tough to deal with now. Not quite screamerstar tough, but I mean what is?

Thank you for your coherent and comprehensive response. Its sincerely appreciated.

You will be even more jealous when you realize how badly they own the Toxicrene. Wraiths hit on 3's, are practically guaranteed the charge (so 4 attacks each) and although they don't go first it really doesn't matter. Assume you have two Toxicrenes that get multicharged to make the points more even (320 Nids vs 258 Necrons) they'll have the lash whips because why not. Toxicrenes average 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 of which get past the invuln but only .67 get past the wraiths RP (a fair assumption to balance out the 60 point discrepancy). Technically it's marginally better than that because some of the wounds will be instant death, doubling the wound pool and changing the RP roll to a 5+ instead of the 4+, but you're still only getting barely above a single wound on average.

Then the wraiths hit back like a truck. 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds. 2.7 wounds don't allow an armor save, and the remaining 5.3 will result in 2.8 unsaved wounds (Toxicrene armor OP) meaning a dead Toxicrene on average. It only gets better from there sadly. The Dimachaeron fares slightly better if he can get the FNP, but he's still not going to win. It's just going to take longer for him to die.

Really now?

Haven't seen the new rules yet, but I just want to say this....

 Byte wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

They're leadership 10.

 Byte wrote:
Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.

Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.

Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.

Credibility in the eyes of whom?

 jy2 wrote:
Really now?

Haven't seen the new rules yet, but I just want to say this....

Spoiler:

I've got 24 wraiths!

24!?! What, do you like play apoc or something?

 jy2 wrote:
Really now?

Haven't seen the new rules yet, but I just want to say this....

Spoiler:

I've got 24 wraiths!

I'm pushing at least 18 and that's before the current plastic sculpt!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

They're leadership 10.

 Byte wrote:
Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.

Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.

Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.

Credibility in the eyes of whom?

Me? I mean wha?

These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.

Agreed when I played VS wraithwing my SW LF spam would save my bacon with ML ID.

The greentide should be able to handle them. However that's a 1000 point detachmenf if buffed correctly. You have 102-103 models with aprox 300+ atks (400+ if you charge) at str3 (4 on charge) they can also move 6, run d6, and charge 2d6 the same turn and reroll charge roll. They are toughness 4 and have 5+fnp are fearless and you generally have at least 7 Powerklaws in the list for 20+ (~30 if you charge) str 8 (str9 on charge) ap2 hits all at WS4. They even have HOW if you roll charge distance high enough. That's the typical greentide list however I've seen people take a weirdboy for deny the witch and assault buffs (+1 atk or +2 str to all) or a big Mek/warlord w lucky stikk for +1 ws to the entire tide maybe even a kff for a 5++ to the Orks in front.

But other then this one list few armies have the ability to tie up a unit like this and most of the meta is built around tougher high save high toughness elite units. Where fast moving assault units with lots of rending atks cause major problems.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
These updates sound terrifying. As an AM player, t4 was doable through weight of fire. Now they are t5. Not sure how to stop more than one unit of these at the same time. Pask you are my only hope. Massed infantry won't do very well anymore needing 6's to wound, even with a priest. And the wraiths have number of attacks to mulch the unit. Wyverns won't cut it if they space properly. I don't want to have to ally imperial knights all the time.

Yeah. This sounds nuts. I thought GW was in a "Nerf things which were good in 5th" mindset of late. Did not see crazy buffs to one of the mainstay min/max units we've seen out of the last book.

luke1705 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Really now?

Haven't seen the new rules yet, but I just want to say this....

Spoiler:

I've got 24 wraiths!

24!?! What, do you like play apoc or something?

I had 6 converted wraiths before the new models (new back then) came out. Then when they came out, I got 18 of them to run my wraithwing army.

Luckily my two current favorite armies are full of instant death and poison. The change literally doesn't effect me at all.

However 120 pt crap firing anni barges and 130 pt crap firing scythes really help to see why wraiths got buffed.

Also I read the decurion as only increasing existing RP, not conferring it to canoptek units.

So, they're basically TWC with built in stormshields and loosing fleet the moment someone joins them cause there are no cavalry cron lords?..So, what's the big deal?

The Canoptek Formation is

6 Wraiths w/ Whip coils ( Minimum squad size is actually 3 but why would you take 3?)
3 Scarabs
1 Tomb Spyder w/ Gloom and Particle Beamer

Comes out to 388. Better kill the Tomb Spyder first. The range is 12" of the Spyder to get the special rules.

3++, 4++ w/ the Decurion Detachment. Oh and the Spyder gives them Adamantium Will.

(actually 3 but why would you take 3?)
What do you mean by that?

As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.

s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.

and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.

I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.

It's the minimum squad size for wraiths. What's weird is it's basically a better version some what of the old , Destroyer Lord / Wraiths combo, but now you don't need the Destroyer Lord.

Not sure where you're getting 388 from.

50 for Spyder
60 for 3 Scarabs
240 for 6 Wraiths and 3 points per whip coil means 258 total

So 368 altogether

Dominus you are correct but the Canoptek formation can grant the wraiths RP. It gives one of three special rules to each unit for a given turn (can choose the same rule multiple times in a row if you want). The choices are shred, RP, and I believe the last one is relentless

I added in the cost of the Gloom Prism and Particle Beamer.

 koooaei wrote:
So, they're basically TWC with built in stormshields and loosing fleet the moment someone joins them cause there are no cavalry cron lords?..So, what's the big deal?

The big deal is that they're actually 10+ points cheaper per model than TWC with storm shields, they can jump over intervening terrain/units, they strike at Initiative 5, and they can easily get access to 4+ FnP that isn't completely ignored by strength 10 or instant death. Thunderwolf Calvary are quite solid and these are *almost* strictly better in every way.

As to how to fight them "effectively", I think psychic powers are the way to go. Invisibility means a full unit is only getting ~3 hits per turn. Endurance on a lot of units will massively slow them down - even basic MEQ become super tough (again, a full unit of Wraiths killing only 2 marines per round).

oh totally missed that. Makes them hands down the hardest assault unit in the game.

ancraig wrote:
As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.

s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.

and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.

I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.

Knights are annoying due to their invuln but wraiths will swing first (and way first vs a PK). But the issue really is that you're not just going up against a 3++ now. It's a 3++ and then they take another 4++ whenever they're about to take a wound from their failed 3++. Basically a 2++. Not easy to get around for anything. Oh you're strength 10? So now they take their 3++ and take a 5++. Knights have what, 2 base attacks? Let's assume that they have 3 (because I don't know for sure). Wraiths hit first and will get the charge. Period. So they shoot out 24 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds (8 if the Knights have their T bonus) so that's 1.5 invuln roughly or 1 dead knight. They swing back with now 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds (roughly) which translates to 2.3 failed 3++. After the 5++ there are 1.5 dead wraiths and the Knights are now screwed. Regular terminators don't even ID wraiths so it's entirely possible that a wraith will suffer only a single wound vs regular terminators. Hidden PK's what, 5 attacks at most? 3.3 hits, 2.8 wounds, 1 failed 3++, .7 failed 5++. They just won't die to anything anymore

Not a necron player and not following the release nearly as much as the Harlequins release, so forgive a question. Quick search hasn't produced a screen shot or leak of full stat line. Are they still 2W? I'm assuming no....

To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .

It's true they're incredibly durable. However there's opportunity cost involved for accessing RP. And again the reduction in fire power of cron mech is pretty severe not to mention increased cost and increased troops cost. It's a trade off. That said I like the direction they went I think the dex has quite a bit of potential without being busted.

 Dash2021 wrote:
Not a necron player and not following the release nearly as much as the Harlequins release, so forgive a question. Quick search hasn't produced a screen shot or leak of full stat line. Are they still 2W? I'm assuming no....

That they are. 5 points more for the increase in toughness. As a Necron player, I'll take that trade all day long


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jpr wrote:
To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .

Here's my most poignant Mathhammer

1000 lasgun shots
500 hits
83 wounds
27 unsaved wounds
14 failed reanimation protocols
7 failed reanimation protocol re-rolls
3.5 dead wraiths
0 failed morale checks

In the following turn, the rest of the wraiths eat your soul

If you kill the Tomb Spyder they lose the Reanimation Protocol.

Tomb Spyders T6 and 3W. It does get a 3+ and the 4+.

Gonna try out something of mine.

Be'lakor, Grimoire Bearer and a Summoner Horrors.

3 Squads of 18 Flesh Hounds each.

For each Squad of Wraiths, I send in a squad of Flesh Hounds. They can hold them up for a time if I can get a charge in. Grimoire can go on one, Invisibility can go to the other, and Be'lakor will go Spyder-hunting.

Not sure where to put the rest of my points though.

luke1705 wrote:

ancraig wrote:
As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.

s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.

and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.

I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.

Knights are annoying due to their invuln but wraiths will swing first (and way first vs a PK). But the issue really is that you're not just going up against a 3++ now. It's a 3++ and then they take another 4++ whenever they're about to take a wound from their failed 3++. Basically a 2++. Not easy to get around for anything. Oh you're strength 10? So now they take their 3++ and take a 5++. Knights have what, 2 base attacks? Let's assume that they have 3 (because I don't know for sure). Wraiths hit first and will get the charge. Period. So they shoot out 24 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds (8 if the Knights have their T bonus) so that's 1.5 invuln roughly or 1 dead knight. They swing back with now 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds (roughly) which translates to 2.3 failed 3++. After the 5++ there are 1.5 dead wraiths and the Knights are now screwed. Regular terminators don't even ID wraiths so it's entirely possible that a wraith will suffer only a single wound vs regular terminators. Hidden PK's what, 5 attacks at most? 3.3 hits, 2.8 wounds, 1 failed 3++, .7 failed 5++. They just won't die to anything anymore

totally wasn't aware they had access to reanimation protocols, much less with re-rolls. I thought everyone was spazzing over them getting an extra pip of toughness.
jesus, that's horrifying.