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 Lou_Cypher wrote:


3 Squads of 18 Flesh Hounds each.

Putting that on the table at retail cost is $544.50 US. Even with a 20% discount ($435.60) not worth it (eBay isn't any better pricing) to just fight Necrons. I would rather tarpit with buffed screamers. Easier to do and easier on the wallet.

 D6Damager wrote:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:


3 Squads of 18 Flesh Hounds each.

Putting that on the table at retail cost is $544.50 US. Even with a 20% discount ($435.60) not worth it (eBay isn't any better pricing) to just fight Necrons. I would rather tarpit with buffed screamers. Easier to do and easier on the wallet.

Buy Chaos Hounds from Fantasy, buy bike/cavalry bases.

Profit?

Chaos Hounds are 30$ A box in Canada. Come with 10.

6 boxes in total would be necessary, being 180.

Buy the round base set from the site as well, you can probably sell the extras or use them for other model projects. 12$ each in Canada, and you'd need 6 sets, so $72.

$252 in Canada, before tax, and that's all from GW. Cheaper if you can get the Bike Bases from a seperate retailer/ebay and the hounds from a independent retailer or something.

EDIT: and it's not like Hounds are bad, either. Probably one of the best CC units in Chaos Daemons.

well, for one, more dakka

On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce, IMHO.
heavy bolter heavy weapon teams for IG?


Plus, you have to remember that while mathhammer has an impact, random chances give little cares for well thought out math. Beyond that, just hope you don't play against a netlist or WAAC player. This same issue of unit spamming can be done with any army.

GoliothOnline wrote:

Spoiler:

Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?

I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.

Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.

Vector Strike wrote:

Spoiler:

Tau Fire Warriors:

1 full squad (12 models) more than 15" away will take out 1W from the Wraiths. At 15" or less, 2W (so 1 less Wraith in the squad). For each Wraith, you'll need an entire troop slot at 15" (and not counting on RP). Each full squad is barely more than 100p... each Wraith costs less than 40p. Greater Good...

This doesn't count markerlights. You'll need BS 5 for each squad to kill 1.667 Wraith - so, 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy HALF of a Wraith squad. (6 unsaved wounds).

Plasma XV-8 are terribad against them (a full XV-8 with 2 plasmas each will kill less than 2 Wraiths).

Maybe the best thing to do is to send a full 30-models Kroot squad with an Ethereal nearby to hold them off, because if the Wraiths are loose...

Even worse than that. You forgot to include their 4+ RP. 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy...a Wraith and wound another. Tarpitting with 30 stubborn Kroot might be one of Tau's best options.

gungo wrote:

Spoiler:

Jpr wrote:
To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .

If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pk atks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.

I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.

At that point though, you're talking about a 240ish point unit losing to a 1000+ point unit, assuming all 100 Orks get to charge and attack (more likely 1/3 to 1/2 the unit at best). And if "only" 35 boyz get to attack, you're only killing 2 Wraiths. Also, remember that the strength 8/9 ap 2 powerklaws are barely better than their basic attacks. The Nobs wound on 2s; that's the only difference.


I'm not trying to be a naysayer and claim they're invincible. Just trying to help us come up with an "effective" answer. My thoughts - what about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnoughts with storm shields? The Wraiths would struggle to hurt him (0.5 hull points per round) and he would occasionally instant death one of them with strength 10. Also, he costs something like 100 points less than the Wraiths.

So i just played a game against the new wraiths. Guy had 18 of the things, 3 squads of 6.

I was running a mix of orky units. 40 shoota boyz in two battlewagons, a backup trukk of 10 shoota boyz. some nob bikerz a tankbusta trukk a dakkajet some warbuggies with rokkits. you know just random stuff.

And man are those wraiths annoying. I mean, i put full on weight of dice on that guy and he just kept making savings. that and I was rolling horribly to wound him.

On one charge i had 45 attacks. 4+ to hit 5+ to wound with furious. end result I caused 3 wounds. THREE! not 3 unsaved wounds. 3 total wounds. and he saved all 3 of those. That took the momentum out of the game for me.

But On the first turn i was able to shoot down one squad of wraiths to 3/6 and wreck one ghost ark. but at the end of the game there were two wraith squads left. one had 1 guy in it and the other had 4 guys in it, and i was pretty much down to my dakkajet.

Also that triarch stalker is amazing, boosting BS of nearby units.I mean it didnt do much for him as his gunboats were largely forced to shoot at my vehicles, but in other cases it helped to get his destroyer lords to wreck the vehicles.

With the boys I wished I could have stayed back and shot the wraiths more than charge them, but man those things are fast. I didnt really have a choice but to charge.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, for one, more dakka

On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce, IMHO.
heavy bolter heavy weapon teams for IG?


Plus, you have to remember that while mathhammer has an impact, random chances give little cares for well thought out math. Beyond that, just hope you don't play against a netlist or WAAC player. This same issue of unit spamming can be done with any army.

This^


And you guys are over reacting(like every other new codex). We have dealt with fast moving T5 before....This will be no different

What if you don't run 3 squads of 6, but instead 6 squads of 3?
It's not like more spiders and more scarabs are bad, and more target saturation is good.

heres one thing that is lame about them though. They are the same price as termies.

come with the 3++
have 2 wounds
12" movement
fleet
beasts
fearless

compare to either th/ss terms or PF terms. and again the cost of terminators seems way too high. Or these wraiths are way too cheap

 Icculus wrote:
heres one thing that is lame about them though. They are the same price as termies.

come with the 3++
have 2 wounds
12" movement
fleet
beasts
fearless

compare to either th/ss terms or PF terms. and again the cost of terminators seems way too high. Or these wraiths are way too cheap

Bit of both.

I'd say these wraiths are probably worth 45 PPM, 50 PPM with whip coils, but at the same time Terminators are overpriced, especially Storm Bolter Terminators who can't seem to decide if they want to be a shooting unit paying too much for durability or a slow assault unit paying too much to swap two weapon bonus for a non amazing gun.

terminators get a 2+ save against more than the wraiths do. They're just slower, but get to deep strike. And they have thunder hammers. While yes, that's the same 2+ to wound against most things that the wraiths have, AP2 counts for a lot against many things.

I don't think terminators need to be cheaper. I just think they need to be WS5

 Spellbound wrote:
terminators get a 2+ save against more than the wraiths do. They're just slower, but get to deep strike. And they have thunder hammers. While yes, that's the same 2+ to wound against most things that the wraiths have, AP2 counts for a lot against many things.

I don't think terminators need to be cheaper. I just think they need to be WS5

Deep striking isn't as good as it should be, is the thing. I have no idea why they penalise assault units for teleporting in but let heavily shooty ones pop a land raider upon arrival no problem.

By deep striking a dedicated assault unit, you slap a "Shoot me with overwhelming firepower whilst I'm helpless" sign on their backs.

I'm inclined to believe the stronger cron lists from the decurion aren't going to be wraith centered, although they will obviously want at least one unit. Spamming obelisks otoh...

Currently this dex is the only one outside of IKs that allows multiple LoW and in one detachment.

Honestly if your gonna focus on wraiths I still think CADs are better. Just more meat an gravy.

Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.

Well no, a FMC can act like a Jump MC and still move 12" per turn. A Nurgle Prince, or any list that is Flying Circus with Nurgle Princes have up to 3 Princes in a 1500 point game, each taking a Balesword for ID. They can Jinx for a 2+ Cover Save and still move 12" per turn, and assault during the same move since they aren't flying. The only thing weighing those Wraiths down is the Spyder, which as a hindrance is going to get your wraiths killed since it needs to either be bubble wrapped to prevent charges, or needs to be hidden constantly. A Daemon Prince with a Balesword has ID on it's attacks. Every unsaved wounds is a Dead Wraith, FNP say bye bye. Once the spider is removed they just collectively shamble off cliffs from my perspective.

Siphen wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Spoiler:

Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?

I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.

Not sure if that would work well. If you're flying, you have to land and get charged by the Wraiths. If you're on the ground, keep in mind that the Wraiths are slightly faster than you (12" move with fleet). With the 4+ RP, even a Nurgle Daemon prince will only kill 0.5 Wraiths per round (you can expect to kill ONE wraith every 2 rounds of combat). They'll kill you before you kill them.

Vector Strike wrote:

Spoiler:

gungo wrote:[spoiler]

Jpr wrote:
To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .

If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pk atks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.

I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.

At that point though, you're talking about a 240ish point unit losing to a 1000+ point unit, assuming all 100 Orks get to charge and attack (more likely 1/3 to 1/2 the unit at best). And if "only" 35 boyz get to attack, you're only killing 2 Wraiths. Also, remember that the strength 8/9 ap 2 powerklaws are barely better than their basic attacks. The Nobs wound on 2s; that's the only difference.


I'm not trying to be a naysayer and claim they're invincible. Just trying to help us come up with an "effective" answer. My thoughts - what about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnoughts with storm shields? The Wraiths would struggle to hurt him (0.5 hull points per round) and he would occasionally instant death one of them with strength 10. Also, he costs something like 100 points less than the Wraiths.

I was comparing it to the decorian wraith spam list the poster above you posted which is basically a 700 point unit with other units you need to take in order to build that list. It's not like the greentide is made to counter wraiths it's basically a TAC list. Spamming one unit type to fight your spam list. Personally I don't think the decorian list is better then the exterminatus list with 4+ RP and rerolls of 1. You can still add wraiths to that list too they just won't have RP.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Well no, a FMC can act like a Jump MC and still move 12" per turn. A Nurgle Prince, or any list that is Flying Circus with Nurgle Princes have up to 3 Princes in a 1500 point game, each taking a Balesword for ID. They can Jinx for a 2+ Cover Save and still move 12" per turn, and assault during the same move since they aren't flying. The only thing weighing those Wraiths down is the Spyder, which as a hindrance is going to get your wraiths killed since it needs to either be bubble wrapped to prevent charges, or needs to be hidden constantly. A Daemon Prince with a Balesword has ID on it's attacks. Every unsaved wounds is a Dead Wraith, FNP say bye bye. Once the spider is removed they just collectively shamble off cliffs from my perspective.

Yes, once the Spyder is killed, the Wraiths do become somewhat vulnerable to some things. Although don't forget that their 4+ FnP isn't completely ignored by instant death - it just becomes a 5+ instead. A Nurgle Prince has 5 attacks (2/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 1/3 get past the 3++, 2/3 get past the 5+++) = 0.65 wounds dealt per turn. Granted, if you do get a wound through, that's a dead Wraith. But you can't even expect to get 1 wound through every turn.
Let's say you kill one. 15 attacks back, 1/3 hit, 2/3 wound = 3.33 saves per turn, not even counting rending. After 3 rounds of combat, you've probably killed 2 Wraiths and they've dealt 3 wounds to you. Of course, your Nurgle Prince can also have 4+ FnP and psychic powers, but that's not reliable and it makes him cost ~100 points more than the Wraiths. It's certainly not hopeless for the Daemon player, but fighting them is definitely not "easy".


I think my earlier comment got lost in the long posts. What do people think about the Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnought with a storm shield? Strength 10 vs the Wraiths and a full unit of 6 would only do 0.5 hull points per combat.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, for one, more dakka

On a real note, Toughness 5, but they are still hit by poison, correct? so there is DE and Nid responce.

It Needs 108 DE Poison shots to kill a squad. Thats exactly 9 dual Splinter Venoms. Dont know whats the usual number of venoms in a venom spam list. DE tend do be good against anything other armies struggle, but have some other issues other armies dont have.

Well on the positive side I think in a non competitive meta I wont run into Wraith Spam and one full unit might be a pain in the ..., but I might be able to handle it. On the negative side, as a person who likes competitive games, I wont be able to play in tournaments, cause I am not interested in boring spamming and abusement of 5% OP units while the rest gets dumped. With all the stupid cheese like Serpent spam, Flying Circus, Deamon Factory, Biker Spam and now again Wraith Spam, its just not possible for most armies to play a versatile TAC list without a big handicap... I really thought GW was finally getting it... think they ninjad me

Its pretty easy to include upwards of 10 venoms.

I'll tell you guys what hurts them. Terminators. And death company. Spam them both.

Da Stormlord wrote:
I'll tell you guys what hurts them. Terminators. And death company. Spam them both.

Well till they start getting rended. but yeah it should hurt.

The wraiths are a top tier unit but they are not broken asfar as I´m concerned. Gravstar is broken, invisible IK's are broken.

Yet another apocalypse thread, it´ll wither in a few months when people learn they're just good and not gamebreaking and learn to play against them.

I wouldnt call this an apocalypse thread. I call this a "Hey look this unit is new and different, and stronger than before. How should i beat it?"

I think that's what this thread is. Or at least that's where the thread is at this moment.

I think it's silly how many people either suggest solutions that cost WAAAY more points than the wraiths and expect that to not put you at a severe disadvantage elsewhere on the table, and the number of people that are clueless on either the math or the new wraith abilities, and suggest things that obviously won't work.

Once these people get in a few games against several canoptek formations, I'm sure we'll see some "holy carp guys, I didn't understand just how ridiculous those things were" threads.

T5 2w 3++ followed by 4+ RP with the possibility of rerolling that for a round, and only losing one point on one of the dice to insta death, is insane durability. Put that kind of durability on a jump assault unit with several high strength high initiative rending attacks, and for a low point cost considering what you get, and you have a nightmare on the table.

A posterboy unit along with Khorne dogs for "assault isn't dead, it's just only available to brokenly fast and/or durable units."

I think we will see a lot of Nectau builds. Necron wraiths with tau missilesides and riptides to back them up.

since the two are allies of convenience

 Icculus wrote:
I wouldnt call this an apocalypse thread. I call this a "Hey look this unit is new and different, and stronger than before. How should i beat it?"

I think that's what this thread is. Or at least that's where the thread is at this moment.

Fair enough. Here's hoping it doesn´t turn into one, because the Wraiths are not unbeatable.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I think it's silly how many people either suggest solutions that cost WAAAY more points than the wraiths and expect that to not put you at a severe disadvantage elsewhere on the table, and the number of people that are clueless on either the math or the new wraith abilities, and suggest things that obviously won't work.

Once these people get in a few games against several canoptek formations, I'm sure we'll see some "holy carp guys, I didn't understand just how ridiculous those things were" threads.

T5 2w 3++ followed by 4+ RP with the possibility of rerolling that for a round, and only losing one point on one of the dice to insta death, is insane durability. Put that kind of durability on a jump assault unit with several high strength high initiative rending attacks, and for a low point cost considering what you get, and you have a nightmare on the table.

A posterboy unit along with Khorne dogs for "assault isn't dead, it's just only available to brokenly fast and/or durable units."

The irony, I love it <3

Re-rolling? Are you really suggesting that we add a Destroyer Lord to them?
Jet Packs and Beasts don't really match.

 RunicFIN wrote:
The wraiths are a top tier unit but they are not broken asfar as I´m concerned. Gravstar is broken, invisible IK's are broken.

Yet another apocalypse thread, it´ll wither in a few months when people learn they're just good and not gamebreaking and learn to play against them.

We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.

The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.

So for some more numbers, I mathed this situation:

15 Baal strike force death company joined by Astorath in back charge a unit of wraiths. 75 s5 init 5 attacks rerolling hits and wounds.

They kill THREE wraiths. And wound another. Astorath doesn't even manage a wound on average, even on the charge. And all that is at the same initiative as the wraiths. If the DC didn't charge, then they lose a huge amount of punch. All the rerolls, a strength and init, and 2 attacks per guy. And this is a 600 point unit that is considered to be among the most devastating, over killing assaults in the game.

How about a MANZ missile, each meganob with a skorcha? If the wraiths attack the trukk, WOD them, then charge. If they run around it (no jumping over anymore), fire skorchas then charge. The rending will eventually eat the meganob's lunches, but until then, parity?

Not sure what people are worried about. You are only going to see wraith spam in competitive play in which case you are also making the strongest list as possible as well. The wraith formation really limits how you can build a list and in my opinion takes the fun out of making a list.

As for trying to deal with them ill probably just send a maulerfiend with tendrils at them and what ever else I have close by to assist in the combat (usually more walkers). Wraiths won't be able to withstand str 10 attacks for long.

 MasterOfGaunts wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
The wraiths are a top tier unit but they are not broken asfar as I´m concerned. Gravstar is broken, invisible IK's are broken.

Yet another apocalypse thread, it´ll wither in a few months when people learn they're just good and not gamebreaking and learn to play against them.

We'll see. I dont think it is that easy. I can think of that most non-competitive Players will run 1 unit at max. That should be possible to handle for most armies (most of the times not point effective). In the tournament scene it will be a little bit different. Think wraithwing will be back. Question is, if it is powerful/broken enough to beat the other broken netlists.

The Thing about wraith is not that they are unstoppable, but their costs are way to low for what they do. Compare 6 Wraith to 6TH/SS Termies For their speed, durability and hitting power i would say they should be around 55 points.

Terminators have been overcosted for ages though. MAYBE if they were appropriately costed we could make comparisons...