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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 02:53:03
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Fixture of Dakka
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You say that if it is like a bad thing, we need more Ilsa!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 03:26:45
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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KS Update number 99:
We can report some positive progress this week. One of the Kickstarter backers, who happens to have professional experience in dispute mediation, has offered his services to help reach a mutually agreeable solution.
We at Battlefront have enthusiastically agreed to abide by and honour the mediation process. We have said all along that this is the best way of achieving a fair, impartial result.
We understand Paolo has also expressed interest in the opportunity, and has approached William Yau, the Dust Studio CEO, with a view to establishing Dust Studio’s commitment to this mediation process. We are looking forward to their response so we can proceed with getting this sorted out.
We hope this is exactly what is needed to move this process forward to a happy resolution.
That's good news. Productive mediation is a step in the right direction.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/20 11:15:59
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Heh, good luck for you guys.
That's probably the best opportunity possible for you folks to actually get your toys.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/22 19:07:47
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne
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BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Doesn't Incursion also have nazi zombies and gorillas? I guess I don't see what makes DUST all that special, other than plastic walkers. Hardly the stuff of Roleplaying games, as any Palladium player can tell you.
One amusing thing that I am aware of is that there's a lot of butthurt between the various "totally original" Weird WW2 "creators". The Incursion guys feel that Paolo ripped then off (there was something on their forum), and Paolo feels like the Tannhauser guys ripped him off (from some interview - they used to work with/under him). Because adding weird gak to WW2 is, like, totally original.
I could go on, but meh.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/22 20:26:14
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Exactly. Why would anyone looking for a Roleplaying game go with DUST when there are many more just like it, some parts of larger, more established systems?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/23 00:46:26
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Azazelx wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Doesn't Incursion also have nazi zombies and gorillas? I guess I don't see what makes DUST all that special, other than plastic walkers. Hardly the stuff of Roleplaying games, as any Palladium player can tell you.
One amusing thing that I am aware of is that there's a lot of butthurt between the various "totally original" Weird WW2 "creators". The Incursion guys feel that Paolo ripped then off (there was something on their forum), and Paolo feels like the Tannhauser guys ripped him off (from some interview - they used to work with/under him). Because adding weird gak to WW2 is, like, totally original.
I could go on, but meh.
lol. It is a genre. There's a reason for the scenes au faire doctrine. At some point, you can't really complain that someone else's wizard school has child wizards, or that someone else's 20s era eldritch horror game has tommy guns, cultists, and tentacles.
'I can't believe you guys have Hitler being all into the occult! You have zombies too?!? You guys are such ripoff artists!'
If you believe in the quality of your work and you respect the work of others, there's no reason to get upset about other people playing in the same space. People sometimes ask me how I feel about all the other Wild West and weird west games out in the world. My response is that I'd rather have folks playing Deadlands or Shadows of Brimstone than X-Wing or Infinty.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/23 01:06:23
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 12:28:45
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Well this seems pretty terminal now, fingers crossed backers either get their remaining stuff or a refund
Paolo ParenteDust Tactics Fans - Official
OPERATION BABYLON KS NEWS.
A message from Mr. William Yau, Dust Studio CEO.
As you are all aware of one of the backers, a professional mediator approached us recently to help us find a solution on the ongoing issue with Battlefront and the Babylon Kickstarter. We would like to take this opportunity to thank this person for his kind offer, but we must pass on it.
Mediation has been given a try already, Dust Studio offered a significant discount on the « freebies » and BF chose not to take this opportunity : they answered that they already paid US$401,000 (mixing up the payment for Babylon « wave 1 » and the overdue payment to the Factoring Bank) and would not pay DS any additional amount, which meant the end of any possible agreement.
The dispute is in the hands of our attorneys since last November and two official documents were sent to Battlefront on November 14th and January 15th respectively - Dust Studio has attempted several times to resolve the issue before taking legal action.
As you know, the disagreement is mainly on the freebies‘ handling: the contract stated very clearly that Dust Studio agreed to offer three Character Figurines for free and nothing more.
We cannot accept that BF is holding the whole wave 2 production order and payment in order to force DS to absorb the cost for all the freebies, instead of the three that were agreed upon.
Since then, BF is making false statements and refuses to agree on a solution for wave 2. BF used KS money to pay old debts and only paid Dust Studio US$140, 000 for Babylon wave 1.
Given that the answers from BF were first to refuse to pay for the freebies, then to refuse to pay for the whole wave 2, Dust Studio has decided with its attorneys that legal action was the only way to eventually resolve the dispute and will follow this path of action from now on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 13:29:31
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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And they should heed the advice of their attorneys and stay silent. I can only imagine how they groan every time DS goes public with something new...
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André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 15:19:38
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Dakka Veteran
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It amazes me how KS has morphed to the point where even established companies can make a complete mess of it. I hope this turns out well for everyone who backed, but I'm counting myself lucky for deciding not to invest any further into Dust after the joke that was Operation Achilles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 16:26:05
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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What made Achilles unsufferable for you?
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André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 17:39:27
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Dakka Veteran
Central WI
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I liked Achilles personally. Aircraft are great, the new units were cool, and the updates characters in the set have been a blast to use!
As for the mediation... looks like DUST is over. If the CEO doesn't want mediation, he is in essence turning away the backers and slitting his companies' throat.
Just wait until backers start getting attorneys and sue BF and DS.... (both for violating the policies of KS, BF for their lies, and DS for refusing to give backers what we paid for)
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IN ALAE MORTIS... On the wings of Death!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 18:17:53
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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455_PWR wrote:I liked Achilles personally. Aircraft are great, the new units were cool, and the updates characters in the set have been a blast to use!
As for the mediation... looks like DUST is over. If the CEO doesn't want mediation, he is in essence turning away the backers and slitting his companies' throat.
Just wait until backers start getting attorneys and sue BF and DS.... (both for violating the policies of KS, BF for their lies, and DS for refusing to give backers what we paid for)
Would it even be worth it? We've seen in the past with this kind of stuff that normally it costs far more to get legal help than it does to just eat the cost and consider it a lesson learned.
The multinational nature of the customers and businesses in charge also throws a huge wrench in things.
Odds are people will be very upset, but few will do much more than file with their credit or debit card company to try and get the money back before its all used up.
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'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 18:58:26
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Dakka Veteran
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Rules were good, but the price increase combined with what amounted to essentially a couple poster maps, a couple small pieces of cardboard and a couple upgraded heroes made me realize that the transition from FFG to BF was not going to be pretty. At that point I was buying everything Dust at the time of release and the value proposition was by far the worst of any of the previous box sets. Chose to follow my gut feeling that something was already not quite right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 19:09:01
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Yeah, it probably sealed DUST's fate when Battlefront increased the prices and reduced the options in all the boxes. It was especially stupid to do that with all the FFG stock still floating around.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 19:09:14
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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MrMoustaffa wrote: 455_PWR wrote:I liked Achilles personally. Aircraft are great, the new units were cool, and the updates characters in the set have been a blast to use!
As for the mediation... looks like DUST is over. If the CEO doesn't want mediation, he is in essence turning away the backers and slitting his companies' throat.
Just wait until backers start getting attorneys and sue BF and DS.... (both for violating the policies of KS, BF for their lies, and DS for refusing to give backers what we paid for)
Would it even be worth it? We've seen in the past with this kind of stuff that normally it costs far more to get legal help than it does to just eat the cost and consider it a lesson learned.
It seems not unfeasible to me that some of the backers might be attorneys. I know if I had the legal background I'd take the time to build a case myself pro bono for the other backers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 19:16:01
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Plastictrees
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Quite a shame, the miniatures, especially the vehicles are very impressive for such a niche.
Still glad I threw money at the FFG sale before Christmas.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/28 20:57:39
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Major
London
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Azazelx wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Doesn't Incursion also have nazi zombies and gorillas? I guess I don't see what makes DUST all that special, other than plastic walkers. Hardly the stuff of Roleplaying games, as any Palladium player can tell you.
One amusing thing that I am aware of is that there's a lot of butthurt between the various "totally original" Weird WW2 "creators". The Incursion guys feel that Paolo ripped then off (there was something on their forum), and Paolo feels like the Tannhauser guys ripped him off (from some interview - they used to work with/under him). Because adding weird gak to WW2 is, like, totally original.
I could go on, but meh.
Franco, Rollin and Shock Waves? Have an exalt my good man!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 03:13:33
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Dakka Veteran
Central WI
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Has anyone filed with their card company yet?
In reading the fine print I'm not sure it would help as most card companies only offer return protection/scam protection for 90 days and the ks ended in june (the pledge manager stuff was also more than 90 days ago).
I was thinking of filing with visa but I'm not sure it would be worth my time unless others have success stories.
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IN ALAE MORTIS... On the wings of Death!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 06:58:41
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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Card claims may be difficult if you got some of the product... I got the axis set, just none of the "freebies".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 13:35:19
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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455_PWR wrote:As for the mediation... looks like DUST is over. If the CEO doesn't want mediation, he is in essence turning away the backers and slitting his companies' throat.
Just wait until backers start getting attorneys and sue BF and DS.... (both for violating the policies of KS, BF for their lies, and DS for refusing to give backers what we paid for)
Dust already went to mediation once, and Battlefront's demands for discounts and freebies were too steep (in addition to being in violation of a signed contract). I'm not sure I fault Mr. Yau for not wanting to go back for another round of stalling and unreasonable demands.
Oh, there will be suits but it's Battlefront on the hook. They launched the Kickstarter, and they received the funds.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/01 13:37:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 13:39:38
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Major Malfunction wrote: 455_PWR wrote:As for the mediation... looks like DUST is over. If the CEO doesn't want mediation, he is in essence turning away the backers and slitting his companies' throat.
Just wait until backers start getting attorneys and sue BF and DS.... (both for violating the policies of KS, BF for their lies, and DS for refusing to give backers what we paid for)
Dust already went to mediation once, and Battlefront's demands for discounts and freebies were too steep (in addition to being in violation of a signed contract). I'm not sure I fault Mr. Yau for not wanting to go back for another round of stalling and unreasonable demands.
Oh, there will be suits but it's Battlefront on the hook. They launched the Kickstarter, and they received the funds.
How do you know that all to be true?
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Owner of Wayland Games |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 14:16:12
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It's interesting that that statement is by Yau and not Paulo.
As for the credit card thing. All I can say is, it's worth contacting your bank, no matter what.
When TotalWargamer were messing me about with the Eldar codex I had preordered along with other items, they sent me the other things, with the Eldar Codex to 'come later.' Long story short, it never did.
I asked a refund of the codex, which never happened. I got in touch with my bank, provided them some proof (including the Codex's mysterious disappearance from my Order web summary) and they refunded the cost of the codex and the difference in shipping too.
It might get a bit complicated if things as part of the main pledge are missing (and, ironically, the value of any 'freebies'), when you've had other stuff arrive. You may also get a few disapproving clucks from the person on the other end of the phone about you using kickstarter.
But, any add-on type things that have a definite listed value that you paid, I'd say you have a good shot at getting your cash back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/01 23:40:19
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rich1231 wrote: Major Malfunction wrote:Dust already went to mediation once, and Battlefront's demands for discounts and freebies were too steep (in addition to being in violation of a signed contract). I'm not sure I fault Mr. Yau for not wanting to go back for another round of stalling and unreasonable demands.
Oh, there will be suits but it's Battlefront on the hook. They launched the Kickstarter, and they received the funds.
How do you know that all to be true?
Various conversations with involved parties. Despite what Battlefront wants you to think they have been to the table before.
Edit: After posting I realized you might be asking about how I know Battlefront launched the Kickstarter and received the funds; that's public record. John Matthews of BF USA used his account to launch the Kickstarter. Kickstarter pays out to the project creator, so no mean stretch of the imagination there. The receipts posted online all show money coming from BF USA to various payouts.
Thanks Compel, I'll try my Credit Union. Nice avatar, btw. I also play Scourge.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/01 23:44:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 07:13:18
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Major Malfunction wrote:rich1231 wrote: Major Malfunction wrote:Dust already went to mediation once, and Battlefront's demands for discounts and freebies were too steep (in addition to being in violation of a signed contract). I'm not sure I fault Mr. Yau for not wanting to go back for another round of stalling and unreasonable demands.
Oh, there will be suits but it's Battlefront on the hook. They launched the Kickstarter, and they received the funds.
How do you know that all to be true?
Various conversations with involved parties. Despite what Battlefront wants you to think they have been to the table before.
Edit: After posting I realized you might be asking about how I know Battlefront launched the Kickstarter and received the funds; that's public record. John Matthews of BF USA used his account to launch the Kickstarter. Kickstarter pays out to the project creator, so no mean stretch of the imagination there. The receipts posted online all show money coming from BF USA to various payouts.
Thanks Compel, I'll try my Credit Union. Nice avatar, btw. I also play Scourge. 
Conversations actually with, or just the gak you're seeing posted between?
Because I'm still not convinced for either side. People like to latch on to one or the other, but I haven't seen any concrete info.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 09:01:00
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Well, there has been several statements, which for all functional reasons are effectively 'press releases' from Paulo and now the real guy in charge, Mr Yeu. While, yes, anything based on their opinions or hopes could be, shall we say, creatively interpreted...
A lot of these 'press releases' include factual statements and if these factual statements aren't 100% true or, perhaps more importantly you don't *believe* they're 100% true, then that is really pretty darn bad for many, many reasons that are more than just a dispute about shipping costs. In which case, yeah, you should get your money back ASAP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 17:46:01
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Oberleutnant
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If they are truely in litigation since Nov, that makes the Paolo's public statements earlier even more questionable. I've never been around an attorney that said "sure, feel free to go posting around social media on our pending litigation."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 17:56:04
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Shotgun wrote:If they are truely in litigation since Nov, that makes the Paolo's public statements earlier even more questionable. I've never been around an attorney that said "sure, feel free to go posting around social media on our pending litigation."
Indeed. That statement by the Dust CEO makes this whole thing look worse to me.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 17:58:00
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Fixture of Dakka
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At which point, if you feel that way, get on the phone with your bank right now :p
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 20:08:19
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I've been lurking in the background on this topic. I pulled out early on because of "kickstarter entitlement" issues. Initially I wanted more since I found the starter factions expensive. Afterwards a whole shed load of freebies were added and the ability to swap stuff out, but I didn't come back. I can't think of an example where swaps haven't caused grief for the project. I also didn't like that Battlefront were running the project under the title of Dust Studios which seemed needlessly misleading.
A gaming buddy stuck with it though and I hope he either gets his money or miniatures out of it. This wouldn't be the first train wreck on kickstarter. Dodged the Defiance Games kickstarter. But I'm still hopeful that either Dust Studios and/or Battlefront will do something to make things right with the backers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/02 20:55:26
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
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2nd Lieutenant
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PomWallaby wrote: This wouldn't be the first train wreck on kickstarter. Dodged the Defiance Games kickstarter.
Too be fair that was less dodging and more of just not throwing yourself in front of a semi.
I'm just confused with how this wasn't doomed from the start. If someone could clarify it seems to be that BF started on the back foot, having to purchase a butt load of DS product from them (I assume that is where the debt came from?) at the same time FFG was having a fire sale on it limiting the market for their stuff. I'm just guess that there is more to this then is currently publicly available as it seems there isn't really a situation where BF was ever going to get a win out of this.
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