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TPM was truly a bad film. The acting was bad. The pacing was bad. The tone was bad and the "plot" was very bad. In fact, the only thing good about it was the special effects. Even the action was bad because we didn't care about the characters enough to be pulled into it. (But Darth Maul was apparently too cool for the movie and had to get killed off. Gotta have more screen time for Jar Jar.)

 KingCracker wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Phantom Menace was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be, in fact, it wasn't really bad at all. The prequel trilogy gets a lot of hate for being a letdown relative to the original trilogy, but they are still decent films. Most of the hate directed their way is the result of 'well all the cool kids were doing it' type groupthink that makes people think Halo was a good video game or Nickelback is a terrible band.

But Halo was a good game once, and Nickelback has been a terrible band for many years. But I personally liked the majority of Phantom Menace. My only complaints are few. The force being microbes, that terrible child actor because he sucked at acting and jarjar of course. Otherwise I like it

I'm pretty much with KC here... I recently bought them on Blu-Ray so that my kids and I could watch all of the movies together (I think their favorite is Episode 2, for some reason... either that, or they ask for Empire) And all 3 films have good stuff, and bad stuff in them.


For instance, I think the lightsaber sequences involving Dooku were OK, however the wrong actor played Dooku for the moves they were using.

I think this showcases the best and worst of the prequels. The scene itself, are epic in a sort of "oh gak Yoda is about to do some cool gak!" kind of way. That's what Prequels are good for. Showing us characters who were older/less active in the original work back in their glory days (so to speak) kicking ass.

But the scene is so robotic, so uninspired, so bland, that all that epicness that you want to feel just gets sucked out each passing second. Remember that scene from the Avatar live action film, where all those guys put in all that effort to move a puny boulder?




It's like Lucas and Shamalama have this curse about them, where everything they film (barring the one thing they did that was actually really good) spirals into this bland mess where everything that should be amazing just manages to be dreadful. In other films (anything directed by JJ Abrams) can maintain their momentum and make us overlook the failings of their plots, Lucas just can't manage it. He has no sense of tension or pacing, by far the most important things for a director to have.

XD

Good thing that Maul didn't actually die.

 Compel wrote:
However, this was something that truly was incredibly clever.

Holy crap I never knew that...

It's probably one of the best musical tricks ever made (is there a list of musical tricks in films somewhere?)

Sure, the Imperial March is quite easy to pick up partway through Anakin's theme, but everybody knows that, that's the whole point of the film.

To work in the subtlety of, "you know all that stuff that the heroes went through, all the tragedy, all the victories, the losses. In fact, whether they won or lost at all, the real baddy actually won." And to hide that in a piece of music at the end of the film that 99% of viewers will never pick up on? At least, not before the next film came out...

That really is the best thing about episode 1.

I dont mind that the plot killed off Darth Maul, don't mind at all.

What I mind is that the film didnt present anyone else remotely as interesting.

in a nutshell the Darth Maul angle in the film worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Compel wrote:

Unless you mean the music, of course... Then you're forgiven. - The music was the only good part of the film, I found. Duel of the Fates was great. However, this was something that truly was incredibly clever.

Pithy "duel" video aside... yeah, it really was the highlight of that film...


And also, George Lucas has little to nothing to do with the Music. That's all John Williams, who is a seriously awesome movie music composer (Jurassic Park, Jaws, Indiana Jones, E.T., and others).

I never before noticed that musical trick.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Phantom Menace was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be, in fact, it wasn't really bad at all. The prequel trilogy gets a lot of hate for being a letdown relative to the original trilogy, but they are still decent films. Most of the hate directed their way is the result of 'well all the cool kids were doing it' type groupthink that makes people think Halo was a good video game or Nickelback is a terrible band.

But Halo was a good game once, and Nickelback has been a terrible band for many years. But I personally liked the majority of Phantom Menace. My only complaints are few. The force being microbes, that terrible child actor because he sucked at acting and jarjar of course. Otherwise I like it

I'm pretty much with KC here... I recently bought them on Blu-Ray so that my kids and I could watch all of the movies together (I think their favorite is Episode 2, for some reason... either that, or they ask for Empire) And all 3 films have good stuff, and bad stuff in them.


For instance, I think the lightsaber sequences involving Dooku were OK, however the wrong actor played Dooku for the moves they were using.

The Blu-Ray versions of Episodes 4 to 6, uuurgh.

Lucas butchering wonderful films in order to force his terrible prequels onto works by superior directors (including his younger self).

From A New Hope:
Changing Obi-Wan's roar to scare off the sand people and making it sound terrible, Greedo shooting first and robbing Han of his introduction as a cold-blooded badass when he needs to be.

From Return of the Jedi:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

All that needs to be said really.

I still have the original 4-6 on VHS, the THX one.

Seems like a weird thing for Lucas to say. I just watched the documentary, Side By Side (Keanu Reeves narrated/directed film about the transition between film to digital) in which Lucas goes on and on about how he thinks newer and newer technology makes the films what they are and how film is a somehow lesser medium than digital, simply because it's less technologically informed. I'd expect him to be praising the modern movie industry for moving towards digital and away from the old ways.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I still have the original 4-6 on VHS, the THX one.

I have an Episode 4 VHS, special widescreen edition, worn thin from so many viewings

Empire and Jedi are the remastered VHS versions.

Then I found the DVD release which had the original theatrical cut as a "bonus feature". So I watch them, even if it means I have to watch in 4:3 ratio or whatever it was.

 LordofHats wrote:



I think this showcases the best and worst of the prequels. The scene itself, are epic in a sort of "oh gak Yoda is about to do some cool gak!" kind of way. That's what Prequels are good for. Showing us characters who were older/less active in the original work back in their glory days (so to speak) kicking ass.

But the scene is so robotic, so uninspired, so bland, that all that epicness that you want to feel just gets sucked out each passing second. Remember that scene from the Avatar live action film, where all those guys put in all that effort to move a puny boulder?

Said this for years...compare that confrontation with the masterful opening of Luke and Vader's in TESB...minimal dialogue, but great use of sound...great atmosphere and feeling of menace...Luke's silence and only reply being the activation of his lightsaber...Vader with the most menacing lightsaber activation ever.

You were involved with some great stuff George, but it's time for you to go.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

The difference there, for right or wrong, was that in A New Hope, they were introducing what ended up being a whole universe. They had to set the tone for something never seen before.... Episode 1 didn't have that "problem" as they were merely introducing Star Wars, a known entity to a new generation of people who'd heard about it, or reintroducing it to those old enough to have watched the older ones previously.

Not that I don't agree with you that Ep. 1 intro was flat, and boring, and you REALLY need to read the EU books, or other novels to get an idea of what's really going on. Just pointing out that there's a difference in where each film is "coming from"

Unfortunately, that reasoning only makes the prequels seem even more lazy on George's part. Cashing in with lots of flash dependent on decades of fandom to gloss over.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Phantom Menace was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be, in fact, it wasn't really bad at all. The prequel trilogy gets a lot of hate for being a letdown relative to the original trilogy, but they are still decent films. Most of the hate directed their way is the result of 'well all the cool kids were doing it' type groupthink that makes people think Halo was a good video game or Nickelback is a terrible band.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/

I was hyped when the movie was coming and when i left the theater i was flabbergasted on what a steaming turd it had become, Same with the last of the Hobbit trilogy it is like the success goes to their (Director's) head, and think i can do no wrong.

 Paradigm wrote:
There's a joke about pots and kettles going here, if anyone wants to do that...

Something... something... black.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Unfortunately, that reasoning only makes the prequels seem even more lazy on George's part. Cashing in with lots of flash dependent on decades of fandom to gloss over.

I won't argue that point, because it seems that's exactly what happened.... Honestly, I do wish that Ep. 1 had had an opening as grand and instantaneous as Ep. 4 did.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Unfortunately, that reasoning only makes the prequels seem even more lazy on George's part. Cashing in with lots of flash dependent on decades of fandom to gloss over.

I won't argue that point, because it seems that's exactly what happened.... Honestly, I do wish that Ep. 1 had had an opening as grand and instantaneous as Ep. 4 did.

Yeah, the following would have been better.

Start off with an intense space battle between the Republic's Clone army and the Separatists. 2 Jedi and a Padawan leading an assault on a fortified world. The 2 Jedi are Obi-wan and Qui-gon, Anakin is Qui-gon's relatively new and inexperienced padawan. As the story progresses we learn how Obi-wan just recently became a knight and was Qui-gon's previous apprentice. Anakin provides a venue for some flashbacks to explain how the Clone War began, so we have some glimpses of the trade dispute and political machinations which kicked off the war itself, but only as short flashbacks set among the action.

We still have the epic lightsaber battle where Qui-gon is killed by Darth Maul, Obi-wan then takes Anakin on as his apprentice.

The second movie would be the middle of the Clone War and all the horrors it spawned. Action and fighting and character development, have Anakin meet Padme in this film and begin the love story.

Revenge of the Sith is mostly the same but its got a way better introduction.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Unfortunately, that reasoning only makes the prequels seem even more lazy on George's part. Cashing in with lots of flash dependent on decades of fandom to gloss over.

I won't argue that point, because it seems that's exactly what happened.... Honestly, I do wish that Ep. 1 had had an opening as grand and instantaneous as Ep. 4 did.

Yeah, the following would have been better.

Start off with an intense space battle between the Republic's Clone army and the Separatists. 2 Jedi and a Padawan leading an assault on a fortified world. The 2 Jedi are Obi-wan and Qui-gon, Anakin is Qui-gon's relatively new and inexperienced padawan. As the story progresses we learn how Obi-wan just recently became a knight and was Qui-gon's previous apprentice. Anakin provides a venue for some flashbacks to explain how the Clone War began, so we have some glimpses of the trade dispute and political machinations which kicked off the war itself, but only as short flashbacks set among the action.

We still have the epic lightsaber battle where Qui-gon is killed by Darth Maul, Obi-wan then takes Anakin on as his apprentice.

The second movie would be the middle of the Clone War and all the horrors it spawned. Action and fighting and character development, have Anakin meet Padme in this film and begin the love story.

Revenge of the Sith is mostly the same but its got a way better introduction.

The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

 Bromsy wrote:
Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

Have you ever watched Clone Wars? Stuff like that comes up far more often in that than in the films. It gets surprisingly deep in the last 2 proper series.

 Bromsy wrote:


The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

Ehh, the name clone wars works because you have the droids, who are largely "clones" fighting an army of human clones, being led by the Jedi Knights, so I think that one aspect of it works... I mean, how else would the Republic get a large enough army in order to take on a droid army in what is really a short period of time.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The Phantom Menace was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be, in fact, it wasn't really bad at all. The prequel trilogy gets a lot of hate for being a letdown relative to the original trilogy, but they are still decent films. Most of the hate directed their way is the result of 'well all the cool kids were doing it' type groupthink that makes people think Halo was a good video game or Nickelback is a terrible band.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/

I was hyped when the movie was coming and when i left the theater i was flabbergasted on what a steaming turd it had become, Same with the last of the Hobbit trilogy it is like the success goes to their (Director's) head, and think i can do no wrong.

People b*tch about studios interfering with the vision of directors, but sometimes directors have flawed visions.

But IIRC, Lucas funded the prequels himself. So there was really no one to step in and have a chat with him. In some ways I almost respect that more than Jackson's situation, in which he directs movies with someone else's money but now apparently thinks that his film has transcended the need to be cut.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:


The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

Ehh, the name clone wars works because you have the droids, who are largely "clones" fighting an army of human clones, being led by the Jedi Knights, so I think that one aspect of it works... I mean, how else would the Republic get a large enough army in order to take on a droid army in what is really a short period of time.

Thousands of planets worth of volunteers? Look at the US building up for WW2. Making the enemies droids was a cop out move to remove any sense of the enemy being 'real'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it, have some sort of terrible loss at the beginning of the second movie, and then have the Jedi insist on instituting conscription to make up the numbers; that would be a great way to turn the people against them. Lots of room for moral quandaries.

 Bromsy wrote:


The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

I cannot exalt you enough! I have been saying this for years about the Clone Wars. According to historical naming conventions, a war called the 'Clone War' would be named by the guys who were fighting against the clones (as in the Boer Wars, or the Indian Wars). Naming the war against droids the 'Clone War' makes no sense.

And while we are on the subject, what happened to the other Clone Wars? See that 'S' on the end of 'Wars"? That makes Clone War a plural. That means that there was more than one. So why do we only see *one* war in the prequels? The war between the Republic and the Seperatists is one conflict. So where all the other wars against clones that happened? Were they in the novels, along with all of the plot and character development that Lucas forgot to put in the movies?

Am I the only one who liked the Pod Racing stuff? That to me was the best thing in all the prequels.

Don't get me wrong I couldn't stand that kid and everything but yeah... pod racers are cool IMO

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:


The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

Ehh, the name clone wars works because you have the droids, who are largely "clones" fighting an army of human clones, being led by the Jedi Knights, so I think that one aspect of it works... I mean, how else would the Republic get a large enough army in order to take on a droid army in what is really a short period of time.

i don't know. Maybe draw from their population of trillions and trillions of citizens?

But that doesn't work because obviously 99% of the population of the Star Wars universe are complete wussies.

Phantom Menace needs to be dragged out into a desert and shot. I hated that mop headed kid every second he was on the screen same with Jar Jar. It reeked of "hey kids buy our toys!" I didn't think Lucas could do a more blatant toy marketing prostitution effort than the Ewoks in Jedi but Phantom proved me wrong.

The only part of the movie I enjoyed was the sound track, and even that has it's weak spots. After viewing this video I couldn't even enjoy that, so PM is a complete wash for me.

Lucas is an idea man, no a director

Wait wait. Were those the actual lines they were supposed to sing or did they just happen to sound like that?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Wait wait. Were those the actual lines they were supposed to sing or did they just happen to sound like that?

 Bromsy wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:


The only thing I would change would have the clone army be in service of the rich but disunified Separatists. It makes more sense to name a war after the enemies you are fighting. Then you could have a rag tag republican army forming, made up of volunteers. Make one of the main characters an actual regular soldier guy, and have him be instrumental in saving the day, watch from his perspective as public opinion is swayed against the Jedi after some sort of major defeat in Ep 2. They are too aloof yada yada, they are co-opting leadership of the republic, yada yada. That sort of stuff.

Ehh, the name clone wars works because you have the droids, who are largely "clones" fighting an army of human clones, being led by the Jedi Knights, so I think that one aspect of it works... I mean, how else would the Republic get a large enough army in order to take on a droid army in what is really a short period of time.

Thousands of planets worth of volunteers? Look at the US building up for WW2. Making the enemies droids was a cop out move to remove any sense of the enemy being 'real'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it, have some sort of terrible loss at the beginning of the second movie, and then have the Jedi insist on instituting conscription to make up the numbers; that would be a great way to turn the people against them. Lots of room for moral quandaries.

I know the books are no longer canon, unless they were written by George for the movies, etc. But I seem to recall that the "fluff" behind the Clone Wars had always been between droid armies and clone armies.... IMO, there really is a ton you could do with it. I mean, if the name is correct and there's more than one war, then you could conclude that at the conclusion of the 1st or 2nd one, that the Republic, as part of its treaty instituted Asimov's 3 rules for all droids (this could go a good length into explaining why, in the OT, droids like IG-88 are such an incredible rarity). Obviously, because we're dealing with clones and their use in warfare, we can bring in the moral quandry of cloning and "are clones people too?" type of situations, which, depending on author, you can go to some really dark places. Heck, even Obi-Wan sounds bad in Ep. 3, when Anakin suggests he drop back to help the clone pilots out and Obi-Wan replies with, "No! that's what they're there for!" which, IMO kind of goes against the Jedi Code on the preservation of life



In short, I think we (the Dakka collective) could ALL come up with plausible and decent explanations for the eventual fall of the Jedi, as well as how the clone war(s) played out, etc. And quite often, they could probably sound better, and be better translated to the screen than what eventually did make the screen.

I will throw this in for discussion.

There isnt a single concept of the Star Wars prequels that couldn't inherently work, including dare I say it, Jar Jar Binks.

Lucas has vision and the pile on the is so popular nowadays in SW prequel nerdrage fails to grasp this. Lucas's problem was trying to do too much and also thrown in all of the various angles together. C3PO is very similar to Jar Jar but works, had he been handled like Jar Jar the audience would easily have hated him. The major difference was that restraining influences prevented Lucas from thrown in all his different ideas into the same screentime.

Look at it this way. Any decent chef knows how to use spices and knows how to use all those available to him. But every chef also knows that if you put a bit of every spice into the soup it will taste crap.

Lucas deserves what he got, and Jar Jar hate is justified, but Also in isolation looking at what Jar Jar did as a storyboard character, it could so easily have worked with just a tweak here and there.
Frankly Jar Jar shouldn't have been in that movie excerpt possibly as a minor supporting character, not because he 'sucks' but because he was out of place with the type of film being made.
What applies to Jar Jar could therefore be extended to everything else that didn't work, as they are individually less extreme cases.