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Does the solitaire have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, if he is using the Harlequin's Caress?

A simple Yes or No will do.

We can then discuss how you follow the wording found in the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (and things like "equipped")

Is the Solitaire using the Kiss?

KoD cares not for this. Page and paragraph that says a Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.

So you are saying that the Solitaire HAS the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule?

Page and Paragraph of how he actually obtains that special rule without using the weapon in who's profile it can be found...

Does the solitaire have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, if he is using the Harlequin's Caress?

A simple Yes or No will do.

We can then discuss how you follow the wording found in the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (and things like "equipped")

Yes. As he is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Is the Solitaire using the Kiss?

KoD cares not for this. Page and paragraph that says a Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.

He is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.

This is irrelevant if the model does not have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule.

Does the model have the "Kiss of Death" special rule?

I still don't have your Yes or No.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.

So you are saying that the Solitaire HAS the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule?

Page and Paragraph of how he actually obtains that special rule without using the weapon in who's profile it can be found...

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Does the solitaire have the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, if he is using the Harlequin's Caress?

A simple Yes or No will do.

We can then discuss how you follow the wording found in the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule (and things like "equipped")

Yes. As he is equipped with a Harlequins Kiss.

Page and paragraph of where an equipped weapon grants a special rule. I'll remind you of the RaW:

Rulebook wrote:It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Is the Kiss of Death a weapon ability? Yes.

Are you attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss? No.

Are you attacking with a different weapon but still using the Kiss of Death weapon ability? Yes.

Are you violating the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities when striking blows? Yes.

Please provide page and paragraph demonstrating permission to mix and match weapon abilities when striking blows. This is a very simple request.

Are you attacking CC? Yes

Are you equipped with a Harlequins Kiss? Yes

Are you making a Kiss of Death attack? No

Please show permission to break that rule. Page and paragraph. This is a very simple request.

Small Rulebook, Page 41, "More Than One Weapon" Section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Your turn. Page and paragraph that overrides this restriction. And remember that you need to override the restriction. We're not arguing HOW the Kiss of Death works. We're arguing whether or not you can use it in the first place.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.

So you are saying that the Solitaire HAS the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule?

Page and Paragraph of how he actually obtains that special rule without using the weapon in who's profile it can be found...

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.

No, that describes the effect of the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, not how the model is granted the rule. Try again

I'm also done for now. RaW is extraordinarily clear in regards to models with more than one weapon... you can't attack with one and use an ability from another.

FlingitNow steadfastly refuses to show any wording removing the BRB restriction. How the Kiss of Death works is irrelevant if you're not allowed to use it in the first place.

7 pages and no consensus...

Mod Lock?

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Is the Kiss of Death a weapon ability? Yes.

Are you attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss? No.

Are you attacking with a different weapon but still using the Kiss of Death weapon ability? Yes.

Are you violating the BRB restriction on mixing and matching weapon abilities when striking blows? Yes.

Please provide page and paragraph demonstrating permission to mix and match weapon abilities when striking blows. This is a very simple request.

Are you attacking CC? Yes

Are you equipped with a Harlequins Kiss? Yes

Are you making a Kiss of Death attack? No

Please show permission to break that rule. Page and paragraph. This is a very simple request.

Small Rulebook, Page 41, "More Than One Weapon" Section - "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Your turn. Page and paragraph that overrides this restriction. And remember that you need to override the restriction. We're not arguing HOW the Kiss of Death works. We're arguing whether or not you can use it in the first place.

That doesn't give permission to count the Solitaire as not equipped with a Kiss. It at best prevents the Solitaire from ever attacking with a Caress as doing so breaks that rule.

As for your request, simple:

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.

So you are saying that the Solitaire HAS the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule?

Page and Paragraph of how he actually obtains that special rule without using the weapon in who's profile it can be found...

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.

No, that describes the effect of the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, not how the model is granted the rule. Try again

It does both. You gain the rule by being equipped with a Kiss as it states.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That doesn't give permission to count the Solitaire as not equipped with a Kiss. It at best prevents the Solitaire from ever attacking with a Caress as doing so breaks that rule.

As for your request, simple:

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.

No, the quote about abilities simply means that the model [Solitaire] can only have one special rule:

Either he has [Kiss of Death] USR,
Or he has [Caress of Death] USR.

He cannot have both rules at once, as they are both found in the profile of 2 melee weapons, and "If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows".

So once he comes to strike blows, you select [Caress of Death].
You do not have [Kiss of Death].

Are you breaking the [Kiss of Death] USR if you do not have the USR?
Yes you are still equipped with the weapon. You *would* be breaking [Kiss of Death] if you had the rule. We completely agree on the fact you would be breaking that rule. If you had it.

Kiss or f Death disagrees. You strike with the caress KoD requires you make a KoD attack. Yes you choose which weapon. But KoD applies at all times to a model equipped with a Kiss. RaW that is literally what KoD says.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Or, more basically described:

What special rules does a Solitaire have when he is in CC and using the Harlequin's Caress?

Answer:
-Blitz
-Deep Strike
(etc)
-The Path of Damnation
-Caress of Death

He does not have the Special Rule, Kiss of Death (listed in a Weapon's profile he is not using)

The rules disagree with you unless you have a page and paragraph proving the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlrequins Kiss.

So you are saying that the Solitaire HAS the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule?

Page and Paragraph of how he actually obtains that special rule without using the weapon in who's profile it can be found...

Page 91 column 2 paragraph 2 in the Harlequin Codex.

No, that describes the effect of the "Kiss of Death" Special Rule, not how the model is granted the rule. Try again

It does both. You gain the rule by being equipped with a Kiss as it states.

I have never heard of a Special Rule granting itself to a model. You gain Special rules by using the weapon with the rule, not by equipping the weapon, as per the BRB:

Rulebook wrote:That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

It is very simple: You cannot benefit form a special rule on a weapon unless you're attacking with it.

If you disagree with the above, please quote some RaW. I have provided enough of it on this page.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Kiss or f Death disagrees. You strike with the caress KoD requires you make a KoD attack. Yes you choose which weapon. But KoD applies at all times to a model equipped with a Kiss. RaW that is literally what KoD says.

So we have two rules...

One says "When you attack, one of your attacks is a Kiss of Death attack."

The other says, "If you're not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use the Kiss of Death ability."

Nobody is debating the first thing. We're debating the second thing.

Fling... you have to show a basic permission to use the Kiss of Death ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. Yes, a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes a Kiss of Death attack... WHEN attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. When NOT attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, we don't care whether or not the model is equipped with an HK because he can't benefit from the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

You've given page and paragraph to HOW the KoD works. Now, please type out the specific wording that you think says something along the lines of "you may use the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with an HK".

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm also done for now. RaW is extraordinarily clear in regards to models with more than one weapon... you can't attack with one and use an ability from another.

FlingitNow steadfastly refuses to show any wording removing the BRB restriction. How the Kiss of Death works is irrelevant if you're not allowed to use it in the first place.

7 pages and no consensus...

Mod Lock?

We have come full circle, again:

 Kriswall wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
3 weapons:
-Harlequin's Caress
-Harlequin's Embrace
-Harlequin's Kiss

3 Special Rules:
-Caress of Death
-Embrace of Death
-Kiss of Death

Both Embrace and Kiss mention "when equipped" with the weapon, making it sound like only possession of the weapon is needed in order to use the rule.
Why would these be 3 different weapons then, and not equipment?
If you have all 3, can you just use the Caress and have ALL the other rules?

As Krisswall has adequately described, you only have Special Rules on weapons when you use the weapon.

But i'd rather have it where we're all agreed on the RaW and can move on, rather that "counting on" a mod lock.

If agreement cannot be reached and it is clear it cannot, just move on and let the thread die, it'll come back whether Locked or not

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Kiss or f Death disagrees. You strike with the caress KoD requires you make a KoD attack. Yes you choose which weapon. But KoD applies at all times to a model equipped with a Kiss. RaW that is literally what KoD says.

So we have two rules...

One says "When you attack, one of your attacks is a Kiss of Death attack."

The other says, "If you're not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use the Kiss of Death ability."

Nobody is debating the first thing. We're debating the second thing.

Fling... you have to show a basic permission to use the Kiss of Death ability when not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. Yes, a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes a Kiss of Death attack... WHEN attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss. When NOT attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, we don't care whether or not the model is equipped with an HK because he can't benefit from the Kiss of Death weapon ability.

You've given page and paragraph to HOW the KoD works. Now, please type out the specific wording that you think says something along the lines of "you may use the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with an HK".

Cool so those rules as you've written them are in conflict. One forces you to use KoD and one forces you to not KoD agreed?

Also the underlined is entirely made up by you. So your RaW is based on rules you've made up. Generally that is a good sign your stance isn't RaW.

I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm also done for now. RaW is extraordinarily clear in regards to models with more than one weapon... you can't attack with one and use an ability from another.

FlingitNow steadfastly refuses to show any wording removing the BRB restriction. How the Kiss of Death works is irrelevant if you're not allowed to use it in the first place.

7 pages and no consensus...

Mod Lock?

We have come full circle, again:

 Kriswall wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
3 weapons:
-Harlequin's Caress
-Harlequin's Embrace
-Harlequin's Kiss

3 Special Rules:
-Caress of Death
-Embrace of Death
-Kiss of Death

Both Embrace and Kiss mention "when equipped" with the weapon, making it sound like only possession of the weapon is needed in order to use the rule.
Why would these be 3 different weapons then, and not equipment?
If you have all 3, can you just use the Caress and have ALL the other rules?

As Krisswall has adequately described, you only have Special Rules on weapons when you use the weapon.

But i'd rather have it where we're all agreed on the RaW and can move on, rather that "counting on" a mod lock.

If agreement cannot be reached and it is clear it cannot, just move on and let the thread die, it'll come back whether Locked or not

I'd much rather have a consensus also. To be honest, I think we do have a consensus between the people who are actually posting rules. RaW, you can't attack with the Caress and benefit from the Kiss.

Fling seems to have made up his mind on how this should work and seems ok with ignoring the restriction in the BRB. That's fine for him. Lots of people make house rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

One says "When you attack, one of your attacks is a Kiss of Death attack."

The other says, "If you're not attacking with the Harlequin's Kiss, you can't use the Kiss of Death ability."

Cool so those rules as you've written them are in conflict. One forces you to use KoD and one forces you to not KoD agreed?

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

I've said over and over he IS equipped with the HK. You're the one claiming I'm saying he's not. Maybe go back and re-read the prior posts? You're clearly not understanding or retaining the content.

From my perspective, you claim over and over to be able to mix and match weapon abilities when attacking, yet refuse to support your claim.

So... pot calling the kettle black much?

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

I've said over and over he IS equipped with the HK. You're the one claiming I'm saying he's not. Maybe go back and re-read the prior posts? You're clearly not understanding or retaining the content.

From my perspective, you claim over and over to be able to mix and match weapon abilities when attacking, yet refuse to support your claim.

So... pot calling the kettle black much?

So when attacking in combat he makes a Kiss Of Death attack always agreed? Or is he not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

I've said over and over he IS equipped with the HK. You're the one claiming I'm saying he's not. Maybe go back and re-read the prior posts? You're clearly not understanding or retaining the content.

From my perspective, you claim over and over to be able to mix and match weapon abilities when attacking, yet refuse to support your claim.

So... pot calling the kettle black much?

So when attacking in combat he makes a Kiss Of Death attack always agreed? Or is he not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss?

Cite the allowance to reference the Kiss of Death rules when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress.
You've asserted permission exists. Prove it - for once.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

I've said over and over he IS equipped with the HK. You're the one claiming I'm saying he's not. Maybe go back and re-read the prior posts? You're clearly not understanding or retaining the content.

From my perspective, you claim over and over to be able to mix and match weapon abilities when attacking, yet refuse to support your claim.

So... pot calling the kettle black much?

So when attacking in combat he makes a Kiss Of Death attack always agreed? Or is he not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss?

Cite the allowance to reference the Kiss of Death rules when attacking with a Harlequin's Caress.
You've asserted permission exists. Prove it - for once.

Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:

1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss

Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:

1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss

Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.

That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:

1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss

Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.

That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.

Page 91 gives me permission if the Solitaire is equipped. So is the Solitaire equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I just think it's silly that someone can essentially go "NUH UH THE WORLD IS SQUARE!" over and over and the normal response is to get the thread locked.

Exactly I don't know why they persist in saying the Solitaire is not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss yet refuse to support that.

I've said over and over he IS equipped with the HK. You're the one claiming I'm saying he's not. Maybe go back and re-read the prior posts? You're clearly not understanding or retaining the content.

From my perspective, you claim over and over to be able to mix and match weapon abilities when attacking, yet refuse to support your claim.

So... pot calling the kettle black much?

So when attacking in combat he makes a Kiss Of Death attack always agreed? Or is he not equipped with a Harlequins Kiss?

When attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, he makes a Kiss of Death attack. Agreed.

When not attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, he doesn't make a Kiss of Death attack. I know this because the rule book very clearly and unambiguously prohibits mixing and matching of weapon abilities in combat.

Your questions are bad. You're providing me with two options that are both wrong, are not mutually exclusive and then claiming victory when I refuse to pick one of your incorrect options.

I assume you're not going to provide a rules citation allowing the mixing and matching of weapon abilities in combat? Serious question. If you're simply trolling, I'd rather do something else. If you're not trolling, I'm genuinely curious to know where the breakdown is. Your'e clearly not understanding the restriction in the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:

1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss

Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.

That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.

Page 91 gives me permission if the Solitaire is equipped. So is the Solitaire equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

Please type out this alleged permission and highlight the bit that EXPLICITLY tells me I can use the Kiss of Death weapon ability when not attacking with the HK. I dont' see any such wording on page 91.

 FlingitNow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Right the Kiss Of Death rule tells us whenever a model equipped with a Harlequins Kiss makes attack in CC one of those attacks is a kiss of death. So my premises are:

1. If equipped with a Harlequins kiss you make a kiss of death attack when striking blows in close combat. (Literal RaW of KoD).
2. The Solitaire is equipped with a Harlequins kiss

Which of those is wrong? Is page 91 of the Harlequin Codex wrong or is the Solitaire not equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

So, again, you're failing to cite a rule that allows you to reference the Kiss of Death rule without using the weapon.

That's where your premise fails (as has been pointed out to you - repeatedly). You're invoking a rule that you have no permission to invoke.

Page 91 gives me permission if the Solitaire is equipped. So is the Solitaire equipped with a Harlequins kiss?

Do you not see how circular that logic is?

The rule you're quoting give you permission to reference the rule you're quoting?

When attacking with a Harlequin's Kiss, he makes a Kiss of Death attack. Agreed.

So the Harlequin codex is wrong? It says equipped, not attacking with. Please read the relevant rules and then come back and make an argument.