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Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. In this post I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. Now keep in mind I avoid tournaments like a combination of a clingy X-girl friend combined with the black plague I try to play friendly games while not being super-competitive. I do want to win, but if I win by being a dick then I haven't won anything. That being said tournaments in this area have an absolute stranglehold so I can't avoid the effect of tournaments (IE the highly competitive atmosphere and the min-maxing list building approach). So it's a bit like doing recreational boxing against Muhammad Ali. Even if he's got both legs and arm tied behind his back and his eye covered, he still knocks you all around the ring and then looks at you with this look that says "Why aren't you trying?" Because of this, I have little opportunity to discuss unit tactics and strengths, or effective usage of different units in the army. Thus that is why I'm doing this series. Taking an in depth look at the various units in the Codex, and working to build a better understanding of them as a unit, and as part of an army.

You can check out the other units I've done this with here:

Khorne Berzerkers
Thousand Sons

This time I would like to take an indeapth look at a new comer to the Chaos Space Marine Codex, the Forgefiend!


Okay so first glance:

We get a 175 point walker that is WS/BS 3, S6, and 12-12-10 armor. It comes pre-loaded with a pair of Hades Autocannons and has a rather impressive list of special rules.

Daemonic Possession means it gets to ignore shaken and stunned results on a 2+. Okay, nice. So it's very unlikely it'll be unable to shoot for a turn while it shakes off a head ache.

It does count a daemon so it gets a 5++ save. Eh okay. Not great, but not bad. And it causes fear. Which... yeah. It causes fear. So... yeah. Against space marines of any type (except for non-cult Chaos marines :angry: ) is pointless. And... well it's fear. Which really only matters when it's in an assault. I'll come back to this point later.

It has fleet. Which... :ermm: um... it gets to re-roll a dice when it runs.

It has It Will not Die. Okay, certainly a plus. it gets to re-grow lost hull points. Well it gets to try anyway. It is on a 5+ which... well okay. it's a 1 in 3 chance. Not great, but not bad either.

it Also has a rule new to the Chaos resume known as Daemonforge. Short version is once per game during the shooting phase it gets to re-roll it's failed to wounds. Okay, nice bonus. But at the end of that phase it rolls a D6 and on a 1 it looses a hull point with no saves. Eh... okay. I guess.

So, okay. Right out of the gate for 175 points we get a mobile platform that can put out 8 S4 shots at 36". uh.... for comparison sake let's look at the Space Marine Dreadnought. For 120 points you get a walker that can put out 4 S7 ap4 shots, that are Twin-linked, at 48" at BS4. Okay so a difference of 55 points. The Dreadnought is putting half as many shots at one lower strength. However it hits on a 3+ as opposed to a 4+ so it'll hit more often. And it's shots are twin-linked, so it has a chance to try and hit a second time. Given the choice, I would take the Dreadnought with 2xTwin linked Auto-cannons over a Forge Fiend. It can be argued that the greater volume of shots put out by a Forgefiend gives it great anti-air fire power, however for 100 points, I can take a defense line with a Quad-autocannon battery, and man it with a squad of Marines with BS4. or if I really want to take care of anti-air defense I can put a Warpsmith on the quad-cannon and get BS5 with twin-linking.

Now the Forge Fiend does have other things to its name. The it Will Not Die is a nice extra. But as I already said, it's a 1 in 3 chance of regrowing a lost hull point. So.. yeah. Like I said, not great but not bad. Don't feel it worth the 55 point difference compared to a dreadnought though. The Daemonforge special rule... eh. This is kind of a hard way to talk about. On the one hand, I get to re-roll any failed to wound rolls. So I can pretty much guarantee all of my hits are going to wound. But I'm still only BS3 meaning if I roll below average I may wind up not making any hits making the re-roll to wounds pointless.

As for being a daemon... well it does get a 5++ which is nice. But it causes fear when it's in an assault. Why would I have this in an assault? I mean yeah if it get's charged there's a chance that I can scare it's attackers away. Well so long as it's attackers aren't Grey Knights. Or Blood Angles. Or Black Templar. Or iron Hands. or Imperial Fists. Or Salamders. or Clan Ruakan. Or Sentinels of Terra. Or Space Wolves. Or Dark Angles. Or Ultramarines. Or Guardsman with Priests. Or... well basically any imperial army there is. or tyranids with in synapse range. or... well you get the idea.

And likewise it gets fleet. Which... okay. it gets to re-roll a dice when determining run distance. Well... this is a shooting platform... all it's really intended to do is shoot. So... why would I be running it? I mean... okay. Maybe I would need to run in order to reposition the model, but honestly given the size of the model and the range of the guns, if I'm in a position where I need to reposition the model badly enough that I have to sacrifice a shooting phase... I dun screwed up.

As far as options go... eh. The Forgefiend is rather lacking. It can replace it's Hades autocannons with Ectoplasma cannons and it may take a seperate Ectoplasma cannon. Now the Ectoplasma cannon is a nice mid-range problem killer weapon, with it's S8 and AP2 stats. It'll take care of pesky 2+ saves and it'll do a number against multi-wound models. Anything that is T4 or less is going to feel the burn. And being able to take 3 of them, okay that's nice. Putting down 3 blasts that are AP2... yeah. It's nice. But... it's on a BS3 platform. a BS3 platform that is more geared toward assault then it is shooting. And for those 3 shots, it's going to cost a rather painful 200 points.

So... Yeah. Conclusion: The ForgeFiend is either over-priced for what it can do, or its priced for the rules it has, that are largely useless for what it winds up doing on the battlefield. Daemon... eh. It's like 55% useful. The causes fear is largely pointless, but the 5++ is okay. Not great, but nothing really jaw dropping. The Fleet... yeah. That just seems like it's hold over form an earlier stage of development. Like the original idea was that Maulerfiends and ForgeFiend were intended to be specific upgrades from a general "Daemon Engine" that could be taken in squadrons maybe. Daemonforge... eh. It's either either going to be wasted, or pants darkeningly good. I really don't see it going anywhere in between those two points. If the ForgeFiend were reduced in points to about 140 I think it would be be more useful in an army. Also, if it had the ability to be taken in squadrons. Just imagine a group of 3 ForgeFiends laying waste to... well... whatever the hell they feel like laying waste to. It's like where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep? Where ever it wants to. What do 3 Forge Fiend shoot at? Whatever the hell they want to.

So thoughts from anyone else? What makes the Forge Fiend good? What makes it bad?

eh... yeah.
Discounting all the advantages the FF has of course makes it look bad.
Always having a 5++ save is tremendous. Always being able to regain a hp is tremendous. These things are resilient against stripping hullpoints. You have to direkt some serious firepower against it to destroy these things.
The Forgefind has a double save (5++ and IWND) over a dreadnought and will hit more due to volume of fire. Against flyers, it is drastically better.
Not to count it can ignore 66% of the penetration table.
Fleet is not too bad, especially in Maelstrom missions. Bad stuff gets to close/you need that objective? Go for it.

You seriously give those abilites not enough credit.
Is it a tier1 unit? Hell, no. Is it overcosted? A little, but by far not 35 pts. More firepower, better mobility and way higher durability over a dread is worth some points.

Yes, you can make an argument that it's only a little over-costed compared to an autocannon dread. But that Autocannon dread is itself a little over-costed.

If it had the Maulerfiend's 12" movement, I'd feel a lot better about its short range.

If the Sorcerer, or at least Ahriman, had access to Divination, I'd warm up a little.

As it stands, I wouldn't consider it an auto-include even at 140.

Crimson Slaughter can get Divination I believe.

WIth the proliferation of high strength/high rate of fire weapons out there mid-range armored vehicles are very fragile. Paying 170+ for them is not a good investment.

With the current reign of terror Knights are enjoying sufficient Anti Tank to contend with them is a high priority in most lists.

This makes life even worse for the overcosted AV12 units.

I think Forge Friends are great, especially combined with another Forge Friend or a double Butcher Cannon Decimator/Contemptor.
The amount of S8 shooting will scare even a Land Raider, especially with Daemon Forge.

The thing with the Forge Fiend (And the Mauler Fiend) is that one AV12 5++ walker will be gone fast, however if you have Three Helbrutes that Deep Strike, one Defiler, two Forge Fiend, one Sonic Dread and one Decimator it is something else entierly. (This is what i like to run at 1750), the enemy now has 8 AV 12 and 13 walkers to deal with. In this kind of list the Walkers does great, 1/3 of the anti tank shots aimed at it just bounces off, 1/3 of the HPs lost are regenerated, which means that you need a lot more firepower to bring them down than you normally would.

I agree that fleet on the thing is not that bad, but I would also contest that the unit should be looked at in a vacuum, the Forge Fiend is one of those units that needs a list to be created around them, not taken just as an auto include in any list.

The list above is 1380 points, with 2 cultist squads, which leaves about 370 points for HQs, which could be two sorcerers, one of which is carrying the Divination+spellfamilliar wargear from Crimson Slaughter, if we get TL on one of the Forge Fiends, it will kill one AV12 3HP vehicle each round on average (only counting HP lost, and not counting pens). The only problem I have had with this list is hordes.

Forgefiend is a decent unit as others have replied to this article. They are slightly overpriced but when taken as a trio really can cause some pain for the opponent. This style of list is also one of the best uses of a balestar Sorceror with warp smith. Two hades forgefiends, three obliterators. It's very decent.

The forgefiend looks decent on paper, but I've never found myself wanting more bullets. The plasma option is a lot more tempting than the autocannon and I could see being competative.

The hades rapier and sicaran do the same things much better.

Ok dont write off fleet, as 36" range is pretty rubbish so it may need to skip a turn running, and it gets slowed by terrain as normal (I think?)

Forgefiend is a better than rifleman dread because S8 and a good fire rate. But rifleman is only mediocre unit in my opinion (a little better against infrantry but weaker against vehicles than FF). Forgefiend has still only AV12 and it takes heavy slot when dread is in elite.

I cant decide is Forgefiend or tri-las predator better. Maybe it is thematic choice. Loyalist have ironclads with drop pods which are better and forgeworld have contemptors and others better options.

I've never been fond of the Forgefiend, it does strike me as being very overpriced, and at AV12 IWND is not as great in practice as it sounds in theory. It really doesn't take a whole lot to bring one of these dudes down. As far as firepower, it isn't particularly good against infantry due to its low BS and poor AP value (on the autocannons), and is "okay" against vehicles up to AV12 (averaging 2 HP stripped per shooting phase) and pretty dismal against AV13+. That would be fine if it wasn't 175 points, but as it stands you're paying through the nose for a unit who's optimal targets (AV10-AV12) will almost always cost significantly less. At an average of two HP's chipped off AV12 per turn, it's going to take a Forgefiend two turns to take out the vehicle... that's almost 400 points of shooting. To take out a vehicle that will probably cost in the ballpark of 100-140 points.

A divination sorcerer makes it a bit better.

EDIT- The Forgefiend out-damages the Las-Pred against AV10 and 11, then does comparable damage on AV12+. So overall it's a better damage dealer against vehicles, while the Las-Pred will do better against 3+sv infantry and MC's. The Predator is also 35 points cheaper.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

A divination sorcerer makes it a bit better.

EDIT- The Forgefiend out-damages the Las-Pred against AV10 and 11, then does comparable damage on AV12+. So overall it's a better damage dealer against vehicles, while the Las-Pred will do better against 3+sv infantry and MC's. The Predator is also 35 points cheaper.

For those points it close to ignores Shaken/Stunned, and ignores 1/3 of the shots coming it's way. With Daemon Forge you go up to killing 1 AV12 vehicle in one turn (assuming 3 HP).
The biggest problem i see with it is the AV12 front armour, which causes plasma to have a chance to make it go boom. Against high powered, low ap weapons it is just a tad easier to take down than a pred.
(LC vs pred is 1/6 to glance, and 1/3 to pen, against a Fiend it is 1/9 to glance and 4/9 to pen, but half of the results are ignored).

Well, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Ignoring crew shaken/stunned is better than nothing, but not particarly interestng because... it's av12. It's not going to die from being penetrated to death. Most armies are going to glance it to death, which isn't really that hard of a feat even with the 5++.

Dunno. As noted the two vehicles are better at different things. Neither are particularly good at their intended role, though.

I've used my forgefiend 5 or 6 times and I've been less than impressed with it. It's surprisingly decent at AA fire with those eight shots and the few times the plasma cannon hit it swallowed a few paladins, but on the whole far from impressed. When it doesn't die to a meltagun on turn one it just kind of sites there, hitting two or three times and not providing much for the point investment, despite how much I love it. Fingers crossed for the new codex.

Draco wrote:Forgefiend is a better than rifleman dread because S8 and a good fire rate. But rifleman is only mediocre unit in my opinion (a little better against infrantry but weaker against vehicles than FF). Forgefiend has still only AV12 and it takes heavy slot when dread is in elite.

I cant decide is Forgefiend or tri-las predator better. Maybe it is thematic choice. Loyalist have ironclads with drop pods which are better and forgeworld have contemptors and others better options.

I think I'd prefer a Tri-las pred for anti-armour jobs, 3x S9 shots at BS4 just seems like it'd do a better job against predators and land raiders. If I'm dealing with infantry I think I would trust to the higher volume of shots the Forgefiend can put out.

Thairne wrote:eh... yeah.
Discounting all the advantages the FF has of course makes it look bad.
Always having a 5++ save is tremendous. Always being able to regain a hp is tremendous. These things are resilient against stripping hullpoints. You have to direkt some serious firepower against it to destroy these things.
The Forgefind has a double save (5++ and IWND) over a dreadnought and will hit more due to volume of fire. Against flyers, it is drastically better.
Not to count it can ignore 66% of the penetration table.
Fleet is not too bad, especially in Maelstrom missions. Bad stuff gets to close/you need that objective? Go for it.

You seriously give those abilites not enough credit.
Is it a tier1 unit? Hell, no. Is it overcosted? A little, but by far not 35 pts. More firepower, better mobility and way higher durability over a dread is worth some points.

I wouldn't describe it as being able to 'ignore' 2/3 of the vehicle damage table. I would say it has a chance to ignore the damage assuming it's not destroyed out right. 3HP at AV 12 or 10 isn't that hard to stripe away and leave the fiend a smoldering husk that can't roll to regrow it's wounds or guns. Yes, it does have a 5++ invulnerable save. Okay. That's still a 1 in 3 chance at not taking damage. Not inconsequential certainly, but also not something I'm going use as justification to say it can 'ignore' 2/3s of the damage table. And then it has it's It Will Not Die. Okay, again a 5+ roll. And again, not inconsequential. But it's still not a means I would use to say it can 'ignore' the damage table or that it can always make those rolls.

You're calling your post an in-depth analysis of the forgefiend but you're leaving out how the abilities work together and you're comparing the cost to the dreadnaught without mention of, for instance, the difference the IWND and daemon save makes etc.

You're not really analysing it as much as listing it's properties and explaining what they do.

The forgefiend needs to be used against the right opponent to be effective, -of course-. If you can instakill multi-wound T4 things with it's S8 that gives it an edge over autocannons since they're S7. Throw in a cheap sorcerer and you can give it re-roll to hit. It will benefit more from this buff than the dreadnaught will and on top of that it has the daemonforge ability. You can stack all of that up in the turn when it matters most. Of course, you'll need to have other uses for your sorc as well or it's not worth the cost, but that's generally not too hard to accomplish.

The 5+ invul save and 5+ IWND adds up, especially when your battlefield is not littered with ruins or other forms of cover.

Anyway, my point is that if you really want to analyse it, you could put some more thoughts on print with what it's primary role on the table is, how well the model works with other units (combos), things to look out for or be wary of while using it or alternative units which might perform the same role better.

Some of these things might seem obvious to a long-term player but could be very useful for a newbie.

Nightplague wrote:

Some of these things might seem obvious to a long-term player but could be very useful for a newbie.

So now I'm curious, which do you think I am and what brings you to that conclusion?

Maverike_prime wrote:

Nightplague wrote:

Some of these things might seem obvious to a long-term player but could be very useful for a newbie.

So now I'm curious, which do you think I am and what brings you to that conclusion?

Don't get butthurt, he is not implying you are either. He is saying that as a post that is meant to inform you are not informing much beyond base stats.
So to a new player they wont be able to see how it may work with other units.

 CShaffer wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

Nightplague wrote:

Some of these things might seem obvious to a long-term player but could be very useful for a newbie.

So now I'm curious, which do you think I am and what brings you to that conclusion?

Don't get butthurt, he is not implying you are either. He is saying that as a post that is meant to inform you are not informing much beyond base stats.
So to a new player they wont be able to see how it may work with other units.

Right I got that part. But I'm still curious weather I am being perceived has a new player, or a veteran player and what brings people to that conclusion.

I don't think you need to compare a forgefiend to anything but your other Heavy Support slots. Now, I do not know what is being played in your area. But around here we see Fire Raptors as the number hated heavy choice. You are paying 220 points for a unit that can be quite devastating or 175 points for a unit they may or may not be effective.

I also see more predators than forgefiends as well. Preds are not stellar but they are mobile cover and a dconstant threat with better movement than a forgefiend and cost considerably less.

O don't like the idea of adding in units to make other units effective - don't misunderstand. I do like synergy but I want units that are not reliant on another unit to be good. It is easy to target a support unit - an example would be wraiths and spyder in canoptek harvest. I would always take out the soyder first and then well.... wraiths are not quite as good are they?

Draco wrote:
... I wouldn't describe it as being able to 'ignore' 2/3 of the vehicle damage table...

It is a Demon though and therefore ignores Crew Shaken (1-3) and Crew Stunned (4) on the roll of a 1, does it not?
Because, while slightly exaggagerated (ignores 2/3s 5 out of 6 times) I'd say yes, being able to move and not snapshoot is a boon not to be ignored.
With AV12 it can be killed for certain, but that is something you need to account for in your list. One Forgefiend is no Forgefiend, two Forgefiend become a threat... If you cannot destroy it, there is a chance it will just keep trucking.

 Thairne wrote:

Draco wrote:
... I wouldn't describe it as being able to 'ignore' 2/3 of the vehicle damage table...

It is a Demon though and therefore ignores Crew Shaken (1-3) and Crew Stunned (4) on the roll of a 1, does it not?
Because, while slightly exaggagerated (ignores 2/3s 5 out of 6 times) I'd say yes, being able to move and not snapshoot is a boon not to be ignored.
With AV12 it can be killed for certain, but that is something you need to account for in your list. One Forgefiend is no Forgefiend, two Forgefiend become a threat... If you cannot destroy it, there is a chance it will just keep trucking.

ARG! I keep thinking that crew shaken is a 1 on the chart and stunned is 2 on the chart. Yes the being a daemon and thus being able to ignore 1-4 on the chart is a big point. That does change some of my original statement. I'll edit my post later after work. Sorry bout that back and forth.

I'm quite fond of mine. It's no wave serpent or old anni barge to be sure, but despite the BS3, mine usually gets things done.

I run Tzeentch daemons quite often though, so having a Herald sitting around to prescience it is not uncommon. Stripping 2, 3 or even all 4 HP off a landraider after popping daemonforge while prescienced is not uncommon and always appreciated.

The total lack of AA in the chaos Dex also means that the volume of fire goes a long way, even without prescience, even if only to make things jink.

Being Str 8 also means T4 isn't getting FNP and threatens stuff like Libbies & Crisis Suits (especially Farsight Commanders) to make those saves or die. Also reduces Necron warriors to getting a single 5+ Reanimation save, even with decurion or cryptek.

I've been lucky to only go up against a forgefiend once in all my games somehow. It absolutely wrecked me with those blasts. BS3 isn't a big deal if you're rolling for scatter against a nid army. There's a reasonably good chance you're gonna smoke something. Guy I was playing brought 2 with the three blast weapons. Theres not a lot a mostly footslogging army can do against 6 strength 8 blasts a turn. They wiped my warriors, then moved to my other squads and either killed them outright or made them so small he didn't have to worry about them any more.

Venomthropes.

 Drasius wrote:

Being Str 8 also means T4 isn't getting FNP and threatens stuff like Libbies & Crisis Suits (especially Farsight Commanders) to make those saves or die. Also reduces Necron warriors to getting a single 5+ Reanimation save, even with decurion or cryptek.

Wait, why would the Str 8 have any effect on Necron Reanimation Protocols? Str 8 is neither a D weapon nor does the weapon we're talking about have a "Remove from play" rule.

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Being Str 8 also means T4 isn't getting FNP and threatens stuff like Libbies & Crisis Suits (especially Farsight Commanders) to make those saves or die. Also reduces Necron warriors to getting a single 5+ Reanimation save, even with decurion or cryptek.

Wait, why would the Str 8 have any effect on Necron Reanimation Protocols? Str 8 is neither a D weapon nor does the weapon we're talking about have a "Remove from play" rule.

Isn't the wording on RP "..on a wound which would cause ID...", which would include S8-10, since these cause instant death.
I just got myself another *-fiend which I will run in an appropriate environment (lots of AV and HP in the list, behind daemon saves). Might do a writeup of their performance in my particular meta.

dethric wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Being Str 8 also means T4 isn't getting FNP and threatens stuff like Libbies & Crisis Suits (especially Farsight Commanders) to make those saves or die. Also reduces Necron warriors to getting a single 5+ Reanimation save, even with decurion or cryptek.

Wait, why would the Str 8 have any effect on Necron Reanimation Protocols? Str 8 is neither a D weapon nor does the weapon we're talking about have a "Remove from play" rule.

Isn't the wording on RP "..on a wound which would cause ID...", which would include S8-10, since these cause instant death.
I just got myself another *-fiend which I will run in an appropriate environment (lots of AV and HP in the list, behind daemon saves). Might do a writeup of their performance in my particular meta.

It does mention ID. It says this rolls may even be taken against hits with the ID rule.

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a Special Reanimation protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state 'no saving throws of any kind are allowed'. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death Special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is 'removed from play'.

So.. yeah. I'm not seeing anything that would mean S8 would change anything about Renimation protocols rolls.

Wounds causing instant death lower your RP roll by 1, so if you'd normally need a 5, you now need a 6. If you're running a decurion or have a cryptek in the unit, you'd normally need a 4, against ID you now need a 5.

The FF's Hades are AP4, so ignore the warriors armour, the Ecto's are AP2, so they'll put the hurt on anything that's not T5+ (virtually every good unit in the codex) or has an invo (wraiths, Sword & Board Lychguard) or Jink (Tomb Blades, Destroyers).

The short range on the Ecto's can be a bit of a pain, especially when coupled with the slower movement. My preference is the Hades.

 Drasius wrote:
Wounds causing instant death lower your RP roll by 1, so if you'd normally need a 5, you now need a 6. If you're running a decurion or have a cryptek in the unit, you'd normally need a 4, against ID you now need a 5.

The FF's Hades are AP4, so ignore the warriors armour, the Ecto's are AP2, so they'll put the hurt on anything that's not T5+ (virtually every good unit in the codex) or has an invo (wraiths, Sword & Board Lychguard) or Jink (Tomb Blades, Destroyers).

The short range on the Ecto's can be a bit of a pain, especially when coupled with the slower movement. My preference is the Hades.

nevermind. Digital codex was having a glitch or something and wouldn't scroll below the first paragraph describing Reanimation protocals. The note about the ID worsenin the roll by 1 was in the 2nd paragragh. Okay so that'll be useful to know with the influx of Necron players in my local meta.