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I really hope that GW proper will leave 30K well enough alone. It's the last sort of interesting bit left of 40K. FW has done a good job with the whole setting and it shows. GW has done a good job of ruining the 40K setting which, sadly enough, also shows. I really think that GW touching 30K would ruin it.

Let them make some plastic kits for the various MK armors and keep well enough away from 30K.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

Well, Panda has been on the money with any info we're now in a position to confirm. But taking that out of the equation, FW don't make a huge amount of cash in the grand scheme of things for GW, and what he says is perfectly logical, even if he's making it up.

For what they are, a niche in a niche, I'm pretty sure they're doing okay for themselves with the heresy stuff. I don't think they'd do the weekenders if they didn't have the money to do so.

New armor looks like Iron man!
Disney sees new armor


"Protect...your IP....Your so.....Cute"



Then GW is brutally murdered.

Wont happen, but it would be kind of funny in a sad way.

The Weekenders are just a giant sales event. I'm guessing the only reason they do them is that they see a profit from putting them on and "presaling" all the "exclusives".

I mean, look at the advertisements for the Weekenders. "Look at these sweet mugs and shirts and models you can't get anywhere else!"

However, if FW is footing the bill for them, it means it narrows their margins. It isn't about not having the money to do them. It's about not making as much money from them as they did when they could piggyback on Games Day.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:


But, this generates a problem. GW has been very careful about keeping Forgeworld separate. If they actively promote and produce 30K, then that drives up even greater demand for the FW products. I can't see GW suddenly rolling out plastic Spartans, Fellblades, Primarchs, Sicarans, Lightning fighters, etc. So, this means GW will have to actually point people towards Forgeworld to get the models for their now GW-branded 30K Codexes, Unless, disturbingly, GW decides to remove those options?

The only other option would be to specifically brand the GW version of 30k as a skirmish level game which would be the complete opposite of the theme of 30k and it's "great crusade" and "horus heresy" style settings of big, badder, better.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

However, if FW is footing the bill for them, it means it narrows their margins. It isn't about not having the money to do them. It's about not making as much money from them as they did when they could piggyback on Games Day.

Oh I see what you mean.

MkIX armour? No thanks. But Horus Heresy in plastic, with starter set and actual kits? Oh Hell yes! A mixed MkIII-VI kit with options ect would be just about awesomeness distilled!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Sad Panda wrote:
FW is far less healthy than you think.

FW-revenue historically was hugely Games Day-dependent (for which non-FW bore overheads and staff-costs).

Without GD, and FW stuck with paying for their own events (e.g. Heresy Weekender), FW is feeling the heat these days.

And that's based on what...

Well, Panda has been on the money with any info we're now in a position to confirm. But taking that out of the equation, FW don't make a huge amount of cash in the grand scheme of things for GW, and what he says is perfectly logical, even if he's making it up.

For what they are, a niche in a niche, I'm pretty sure they're doing okay for themselves with the heresy stuff. I don't think they'd do the weekenders if they didn't have the money to do so.

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Calling complete BS on the 30k from GW rumour. They may introduce some "ancient design" or something but they will not interfere with 30k ruleswise.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

I would contest that conclusion and say that the ranking of sales would have the website as the highest percentage of purchases (at least 50%), and I would say that Black Library gets at least near to FW in sales. Perhaps in the UK, where shipping is more reasonable, FW sales are great. However, out of all of the 40k people I've known well (say, 60-80), maybe 3 have made FW purchases. 1 of those makes consistent, large purchases ($3000+/yr), the other two place an order a couple times a year at most (enough to get free International shipping, I think $200). A few others, like me, have ordered once or twice from FW in their lifetimes, but it's so rare that it's hardly worth mentioning. Part of the problem is that it takes a really long time to get here, and we get killed by duties and import fees.

In contrast, I know many people who have bought at least *something* from Black Library -- some people have ePub versions of all the codices, many people have dataslates, and many people have ePub books -- and I would say more than half the people I know who are 40k regulars have bought from the Web Store in the last 2 years.

The Web Store encourages you to buy at least $65USD/$80 CAD (for free shipping -- if you don't hit the minimum price, the shipping is ridiculous), and there are many models and kits that are now web-only. In the last year, I've made 4 purchases on the web store, for instance -- one for Space Hulk (I was afraid I'd miss out on it, so I insta-bought it), and 3 purchases of around $100, mostly because I wanted 1 item that was direct-only -- shoulder pads, independent character, some finecast item, etc.

Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

He said "FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue," not "FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue."

Talys wrote:
Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

You just misread it. They didn't say that FW brings in 20% of GW"s revenue, they said that FW is part of the 20%.

Anyway, whatever the exact number is I think the most important aspect is which customers that money is coming from. FW might not make up much of GW's total profit compared to the kids begging their parents for a box of space marines that they'll never even finish assembling, but FW is a much higher percentage of sales to the older veteran players that GW depends on for their "we don't advertise at all" business model. GW needs to keep those people happy and available as a marketing tool even if it means keeping around a division of the company that isn't making big profit numbers.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said FW is important for GW's long term prospects, that, and the fact that if there's any soul left in GW, FW is almost definitely it.

This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

Because there's an almost infinite demand for new space marine models? A new space marine armor version is plausible and a straightforward milking of the cash cow. The only thing that isn't reasonable is the speculation that it's going to be some completely new design that will replace all of the existing marine kits, magically protect their IP and prevent anyone from selling their own shoulder pads, and force everyone to buy new space marine armies since it won't be compatible with the older kits. The most likely answer is that there will be some kind of Mk IX armor kit that will be compatible with all the old stuff and just be another option for marine players to buy.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Talys wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Let me put it in context for you. Both the stores and third party retailers generated ~£22m each in the first half of GW's current financial year. (So £44m combined.) In their report, they have a third category "Mail Order" which includes all of the direct sales through the website and all Black Library sales and all Forge World sales. This generated £11m for the same period.

So FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue. They also produce resin miniatures which, on a mini by mini basis, cost more to produce than plastic, and in many parts of the world, don't sell for an appreciable amount more than GW stuff does.

I have absolutely no problem believing that FW aren't quite the cash printing machine the causal hobbyist may assume, but I do believe their continued existence is critical to the chances of GW pulling out of their current doldrums and having a healthy future.

Without checking the numbers (just assuming that what you have is correct), I don't see how you figure FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue. If the total is GBP44m, and the Mail Order component is GBP11m, how do you reach the conclusion that FW brings in most of that 8.8 of the 11m (or 80%)?

He said "FW contributes a percentage of approximately 1/5th of GW's revenue," not "FW contributes 1/5 of GW's revenue."

The statement was a part of the annual report from FY14. The statement fell within the annual report and PriceWaterhouseCoopers did not comment on the statement in their opinion. Therefore, it is safe to assume that revenues from Forge World and Black Library are 9%. The mail order revenues are broken out separately and are approximately 13% of total revenues. Together, these two combine to reflect approximately 22%. I'm not sure if there is a rounding error in there, but it's safe to assume its darn close. Refer to page 8 of 64 of the 2014 Annual Report.

That's why you read audited financial statements and ignore the people who come up with their own models, their own regression, their own analysis, etc. Just stick to the facts as they are available and reviewed by an independent third party.

I might see it as a limited, self contained, mystery box kinda release. But GW doing a permanent 30k game, which would directly be in competition with 40k.

I think it's very dubious, even if Hasting is behind this rumour.

Would be a massive cash injection no doubt for them, looks like they're trying to push as much out as possible to try and get those sale figures up

 Peregrine wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
This isn't going to happen, GW isn't the brightest of companies but why in the ever living feth would they release a brand new armor kit when they just updated tactical marines and BA tactical marines. Wishful thinking will just lead to disappointment.

Because there's an almost infinite demand for new space marine models? A new space marine armor version is plausible and a straightforward milking of the cash cow. The only thing that isn't reasonable is the speculation that it's going to be some completely new design that will replace all of the existing marine kits, magically protect their IP and prevent anyone from selling their own shoulder pads, and force everyone to buy new space marine armies since it won't be compatible with the older kits. The most likely answer is that there will be some kind of Mk IX armor kit that will be compatible with all the old stuff and just be another option for marine players to buy.

I could see forgeworld making a kit, but completely revamping everything is ludicrous. And a multi-part plastic kit of them sounds off in left field unless they release new rules for the armor separate from a tactical squad.

Thinking about in purely the terms that the beancounters who run GW would I do not see any future that does not include an end times 40k at some point.

They are only going to look at the spike in fantasy sales caused by end times, effectively making a nice profit from what was considered a dead weight.

They are then going to think if they can make that much from fantasy, then running that against a successful part of the business is going to make them so much more.

If Hastings said it, bank it. I don't think it's that he's omniscient. But I don't think he chimes in unless he knows.

So...is this all one rumor, then? Is the "new mark" that Duffybear was talking about really the generic "old armor" that Whisperer mentioned? Hey, mk 3 ("iron" armor) could be considered to be reminiscent of Iron Man's original suit. It would also explain why Harry seemed to be hinting at something bigger. GW proper getting into 30K would seem to qualify.

And if GW is making this generic old armor, it says to me that they're trying NOT to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Plastics will provide a real gateway into 30K, but leave the proper marks (and presumably the rest) to FW for those of us who care about such things.

A Mk 3 kit or whatever is something I suggested a long time ago. It would basically be a conversion kit for two armies - buy a box and mix it into your Chaos Space Marine or Space Marine army.

So yeah, I'm in favour of it.

Introducing the Mk IX armor ...



To be painted whatever color of your favorite faction marine ... Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists or Mace Warlords

Um..

I've seen a few posts here that worry me..

You guys are aware that Mark 5 was 'Heresy' armor, and Mark 6 was shortly after heresy that brings us into the '40k' realm, right?

And that Mark 9 comes after Mark 6 by several models...

So making Mark 9 armor doesn't invalidate any Heresy or 30k stuff at all... right?

It typically goes.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... So Mark 9 would be the 'latest and greatest' mark of armor, which means it wouldn't have been made before Mark 5 Heresy pattern, because it's... Mark 9.

I'm just a little confused by some of these posts I'm seeing because it sounds like people... aren't getting that?

Or are people just talking about something totally different and I'm just more confused than I thought I was?

drbored wrote:
Um..

I've seen a few posts here that worry me..

You guys are aware that Mark 5 was 'Heresy' armor, and Mark 6 was shortly after heresy that brings us into the '40k' realm, right?

And that Mark 9 comes after Mark 6 by several models...

So making Mark 9 armor doesn't invalidate any Heresy or 30k stuff at all... right?

It typically goes.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... So Mark 9 would be the 'latest and greatest' mark of armor, which means it wouldn't have been made before Mark 5 Heresy pattern, because it's... Mark 9.

I'm just a little confused by some of these posts I'm seeing because it sounds like people... aren't getting that?

Or are people just talking about something totally different and I'm just more confused than I thought I was?

Yeah I think you're confused, nowhere has anyone said MkV was after MkIX...

Also, MkVI was used late heresy and MkVII was used at the Siege of Terra

There's two contradictory precedents which either support or weaken the rumour of Heresy-era plastic infantry.

In favour: By GW's own admission in the last annual report (and the one before that) FW (and BL) are the big growth drivers at GW. Their percentages of revenue aren't as high as other sections of the business, but they're the ones actively growing while the rest of the business shrinks, particularly in non-UK markets. GW's bean counters may not be the wisest businessmen on the planet, but they can probably see that FW is expanding, GW prime is not in spite of all sorts of obstacles to purchase; volatile prices due to currency, expensive shipping, etc. To them, it may be, given GW's apparent decline in revenue that they want to hop on what's making FW successful (even if they don't fully understand why; better rules, as open communication as possible, less bad 90s comic-book models, etc) and produce some plastic kits which work for their range and customer base, which is evidently expanding, and still good for 40k prime, Space Marines in particular, their golden egg as it were.

Against: GW is adamantly against, historically, producing FW kits, lines, or even recognizing FW exists outside of Apocalypse. The Hydra has been the one exception to that rule (as without it, the Guard have no AA, but they nerfed it to high hell and made the laziest combo-kit ever out of it...). GW has the long held belief that making FW kits in plastic would "cannibalize sales" and not produce additionally revenue, as customers would buy the same amount of product, just from GW prime rather than from FW and thus wasn't worth the investment. This, of course, wasn't always the case, with things like Drop Pods, most Leman Russ variants and such being FW originally, but for years GW has avoided, at all costs, making FW models into plastic, and since Chapterhouse, has stripped what FW profiles existed in codexes (Guard artillery). This would be a big change in direction for them if true, and flies in the face of an established precedent in a company which loathes change (especially change which might make them money).

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Against: GW is adamantly against, historically, producing FW kits, lines, or even recognizing FW exists outside of Apocalypse. The Hydra has been the one exception to that rule (as without it, the Guard have no AA, but they nerfed it to high hell and made the laziest combo-kit ever out of it...).

This is not actually true. FW kits that are now GW plastic kits:

Valkyrie
Sky Ray
Piranha
Drop pod
Baneblade/Shadowsword
Manticore
Hydra
Some of the Tyranid stuff (I forget exactly)
LRBT turret variants

And those are just the ones I can remember easily, there might be more. They haven't done it for a while, probably because they realized that if they're willing to ignore fluff issues they can just invent a new unit when they want to make a plastic kit instead of taking an existing one, but there is precedent for it.

New Marines? As long as they don't add that awful 6-pack look to the abdomen that some of the new Blood Angels got.

I'd expect a name change soon too. They did it to IG. Are Space Marines the last name they use that they can't claim is their IP. I mean we are talking about a company that renamed all it's paints to be protected by IP law.

Feth, just call them the Adeptus Astartes then, as they've always been known. Its one of the few faux Latin names that is actually cool and widely known/recognized.

Well if the SoB and IG are anything to go by, the next SM dex will be re-branded as Codex: Adeptus Astartes.


Or.... Or if there is even a single iota of humour left at GW then it'll get renamed Codex Astartes.