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Lanrak wrote:
Just as a general comment.
I think the real problem is there are too many units fighting over limited amount of values and roles in the 40k game.
Coupled with a very restricted game play focus,makes getting things to work as they should ,attaining internal and external balance very difficult.

The problem with just tweeking PV is the fact is does not address core issues.And this just tends to move the problems to other areas.

The only way you can make a game of 40k with ALL units being viable options.Is to write rules to cover the scale and scope of the units currently in the game .
This is the only way to get all units to perform in synergy with the background. and achieve a game that is as inspiring as the models and background.IMO.

This is the default argument for fixing nothing. Expecting a wholesale rewrite of the rules in order to validate a few underpowered units will lead to disappointment.

The problem is the unit and rules inflation, the IG codex used to be 50 pages, now it's 200 pages. Dark Eldar and Nids used to be 40 pages, now they're also in the 200 page range. Every unit in the codex is competing with five other units that do similar jobs, but GW is not about to take half their stock off the shelves in the interest of better internal balance. IMO adjusting the points cost is always the preferred means to balancing a unit. But considering that every marine player I've gone against deploys his terminators in the open, right in front of my tank line, I'm unsympathetic to the complaints regarding terminators.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Deepstriking is a broken game mechanic in its own right. placing a bunch of models in concentric circles around a single model and then not letting them move that turn means you have effectively made a big blob that I will enjoy shooting at. Twice i have played a weirdboy and got the deepstrike power, i basically never used it because the idea of 30 boyz in a giant concentric circle around my weirdboy makes me sick. yeah you can run but if you get a bad dice roll then your in trouble.

as to the suggestion I made and your counter argument, yeah its not amazing or OP which is what I feel a lot of people want (and by how OP recent codexs have been i understand). But you put some termies in a land raider and you have a mobile strong point that can fire a decent amount of firepower. Martel hates LRs to and thinks they suck but when you team it up with a terminator squad you have a great delivery system for decapitating HQs and removing heavy support. Everyone keeps saying they get bogged down to garbage units, well im sorry your opponents are so used to playing against marines they have figured out good counters but that doesn't mean you stop, you just need to find a new tactic that allows you to get around this.

"Martel hates LRs to and thinks they suck but when you team it up with a terminator squad you have a great delivery system for decapitating HQs and removing heavy support."

No one is going to let you decapitate HQs or remove heavy support like that. Speaking of which, what heavy support choices warrant being assaulted by terminators anyway?

People don't have to be used to playing against marines to know how to play. People rarely use LRs in my meta because they are so bad, but everyone still knows how to bone them. There is no tactic that lets you control your opponent's movement phase. That is the weak part of your argument.

" fire a decent amount of firepower"

But it's not decent firepower at all. That's a big part of the problem. Your bar is far too low for 250 pt model. You also don't ever explain WHY it's good, you just say "because tactics". Let's pretend we are in a situation where tactics are roughly equal. In this scenario, why would I use a LR?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheSilo wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Just as a general comment.
I think the real problem is there are too many units fighting over limited amount of values and roles in the 40k game.
Coupled with a very restricted game play focus,makes getting things to work as they should ,attaining internal and external balance very difficult.

The problem with just tweeking PV is the fact is does not address core issues.And this just tends to move the problems to other areas.

The only way you can make a game of 40k with ALL units being viable options.Is to write rules to cover the scale and scope of the units currently in the game .
This is the only way to get all units to perform in synergy with the background. and achieve a game that is as inspiring as the models and background.IMO.

This is the default argument for fixing nothing. Expecting a wholesale rewrite of the rules in order to validate a few underpowered units will lead to disappointment.

The problem is the unit and rules inflation, the IG codex used to be 50 pages, now it's 200 pages. Dark Eldar and Nids used to be 40 pages, now they're also in the 200 page range. Every unit in the codex is competing with five other units that do similar jobs, but GW is not about to take half their stock off the shelves in the interest of better internal balance. IMO adjusting the points cost is always the preferred means to balancing a unit. But considering that every marine player I've gone against deploys his terminators in the open, right in front of my tank line, I'm unsympathetic to the complaints regarding terminators.

That just proves you play lazy marine players. Also, loyalist terminators sucked back when codices were small. They've always sucked. Except wolf guard.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Deepstriking is a broken game mechanic in its own right. placing a bunch of models in concentric circles around a single model and then not letting them move that turn means you have effectively made a big blob that I will enjoy shooting at. Twice i have played a weirdboy and got the deepstrike power, i basically never used it because the idea of 30 boyz in a giant concentric circle around my weirdboy makes me sick. yeah you can run but if you get a bad dice roll then your in trouble.

as to the suggestion I made and your counter argument, yeah its not amazing or OP which is what I feel a lot of people want (and by how OP recent codexs have been i understand). But you put some termies in a land raider and you have a mobile strong point that can fire a decent amount of firepower. Martel hates LRs to and thinks they suck but when you team it up with a terminator squad you have a great delivery system for decapitating HQs and removing heavy support. Everyone keeps saying they get bogged down to garbage units, well im sorry your opponents are so used to playing against marines they have figured out good counters but that doesn't mean you stop, you just need to find a new tactic that allows you to get around this.

"Martel hates LRs to and thinks they suck but when you team it up with a terminator squad you have a great delivery system for decapitating HQs and removing heavy support."

No one is going to let you decapitate HQs or remove heavy support like that. Speaking of which, what heavy support choices warrant being assaulted by terminators anyway?

People don't have to be used to playing against marines to know how to play. People rarely use LRs in my meta because they are so bad, but everyone still knows how to bone them. There is no tactic that lets you control your opponent's movement phase. That is the weak part of your argument.

" fire a decent amount of firepower"

But it's not decent firepower at all. That's a big part of the problem. Your bar is far too low for 250 pt model. You also don't ever explain WHY it's good, you just say "because tactics". Let's pretend we are in a situation where tactics are roughly equal. In this scenario, why would I use a LR?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheSilo wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Just as a general comment.
I think the real problem is there are too many units fighting over limited amount of values and roles in the 40k game.
Coupled with a very restricted game play focus,makes getting things to work as they should ,attaining internal and external balance very difficult.

The problem with just tweeking PV is the fact is does not address core issues.And this just tends to move the problems to other areas.

The only way you can make a game of 40k with ALL units being viable options.Is to write rules to cover the scale and scope of the units currently in the game .
This is the only way to get all units to perform in synergy with the background. and achieve a game that is as inspiring as the models and background.IMO.

This is the default argument for fixing nothing. Expecting a wholesale rewrite of the rules in order to validate a few underpowered units will lead to disappointment.

The problem is the unit and rules inflation, the IG codex used to be 50 pages, now it's 200 pages. Dark Eldar and Nids used to be 40 pages, now they're also in the 200 page range. Every unit in the codex is competing with five other units that do similar jobs, but GW is not about to take half their stock off the shelves in the interest of better internal balance. IMO adjusting the points cost is always the preferred means to balancing a unit. But considering that every marine player I've gone against deploys his terminators in the open, right in front of my tank line, I'm unsympathetic to the complaints regarding terminators.

That just proves you play lazy marine players. Also, loyalist terminators sucked back when codices were small. They've always sucked. Except wolf guard.

I agree with you Martel. Land Raiders are overpriced by at the minimum 50 points. The only land raider worth anything is the achilles and I only take that because I am iron hands and can throw a MotF with Iron Stone and 3 servo arm servitors and sometimes another tech marine in it. Take two deimos preds with las cannons and heavy conversion beamers within 6in of the achilles and you have decent backfield support. makes great support for biker army. If the game is big enough i can even take a fellblade. And no way am I gonna take terminators. I'll just take either more bikes or land speeders or something else. I have yet to find anything for a terminator to do that some other unit can't already do better, usually for a cheaper price point.. Terminators and their dedicated transports are probably the most egregious offenders of the overcosted model syndrome many space marines models/units/upgrades have. Not saying all space marine stuff is horribly overcosted, in fact many items are close but not quite there so to speak. I sometimes think space marines should be able to buy all upgrades in the first 5 men then can get the next 5 at a discount. As they are now I would price a terminator with power weapon and storm bolter at 25 or 26 points since they about as tough and useful as honour guard and HG are a tad over priced for what they do and have. Command squads are actually right on i think with what they have for options and their superior usefulness compared to HG.

Marines have lots of good units. It's just that terminators aren't one of them. Neither are LRs. Even the much maligned tac marine is costed far more fairly than terminators. It's also fair to point out that marine have lots of bad units, too. Terminators are just one of them.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have lots of good units. It's just that terminators aren't one of them. Neither are LRs. Even the much maligned tac marine is costed far more fairly than terminators. It's also fair to point out that marine have lots of bad units, too. Terminators are just one of them.

I agree with you completely. There are a lot of good units. And most things are costed more fairly than terminators. I don't think tacs are horrible per say. Just lacking in focus a bit, but that is an issue for a different thread. The advantage of space marines is their are generally all around good but not great which is their weakness as well and they pay a premium for this general usefulness (again really a topic for another thread lol). The problem with terminators I think isn't just points unfortunately. Even though the points are a HUGE factor in their current uselessness. TDA on it's own seems to suffer from crummy rules. It is almost always better to choose something else for a HQ than TDA.

 NorseSig wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have lots of good units. It's just that terminators aren't one of them. Neither are LRs. Even the much maligned tac marine is costed far more fairly than terminators. It's also fair to point out that marine have lots of bad units, too. Terminators are just one of them.

I agree with you completely. There are a lot of good units. And most things are costed more fairly than terminators. I don't think tacs are horrible per say. Just lacking in focus a bit, but that is an issue for a different thread. The advantage of space marines is their are generally all around good but not great which is their weakness as well and they pay a premium for this general usefulness (again really a topic for another thread lol). The problem with terminators I think isn't just points unfortunately. Even though the points are a HUGE factor in their current uselessness. TDA on it's own seems to suffer from crummy rules. It is almost always better to choose something else for a HQ than TDA.

It is the only way to get a libby an invuln save, but I usually just take my chances and save the points. Plus, I can't give them a jump pack then. I use libbies as buff monkeys, not beat sticks.

Hi, my suggestion is that a terminator armour gains a special 2+ that is only totally negated by AP1 (of course they still have the 5++ )
att AP 2 they will instead get a 4+ save. That will boost them a little bit. I apologise if some one already suggested this didn't read al comments.


An other suggestion would be to change armour for everyone - that AP with the same nummer as armour would only make a -2 for the roll. And a AP that is lower totally negate armour.

So a Marine in power armour 3+ hit by a power sword AP 3 would still get a 5+ armour save. A Tau Fire warrior 4+ hit by a Assault cannon AP 4 would get a 6+ armour save.

That would make Ap a little bit more complicated but not very much.

Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

Cheaper termies with split fire mix tac/ass gear. cheaper termies that tread a lot on Dark angels Deathwing schtick.?

Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

Cheaper termies with split fire mix tac/ass gear. cheaper termies that tread a lot on Dark angels Deathwing schtick.?

I don't know if you would need to give them splitfire if you did the other things i mentioned. What is the DA shtick? I haven't looked closely at them and no one in my area plays them. And if you changed base terminators you would have to adjust other kinds of terminators as well. So Deathwing would probably get a points reduction.

 NorseSig wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

Cheaper termies with split fire mix tac/ass gear. cheaper termies that tread a lot on Dark angels Deathwing schtick.?

I don't know if you would need to give them splitfire if you did the other things i mentioned. What is the DA shtick? I haven't looked closely at them and no one in my area plays them. And if you changed base terminators you would have to adjust other kinds of terminators as well. So Deathwing would probably get a points reduction.

Besides the split fire and able to mix assault and tac gear?

It would make regular termies more similar to Da ones but cheaper and it wouldn't really help Da termies even if they where made cheaper aswell.

Mixing wargear is hardly DA-unique, CSMs and SWs can too (though better)

Also NorseSig wasn't saying to give other termies Split Fire.

Anyway, isn't Deathwings shtick Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike?

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

So what do want to drop my Incubi to? They are nowhere near as good as Terminators for most roles, except killing hard targets in melee. They currently cost 20ppm, for +1WS, +1I, -1S, -1T, -1Sv, no ranged weapon of any kind, an AP2 S+1 weapon(as compared to a Sx2 AP2 weapon)

Special Rules:
Fleet which is situational at best especially since fleet does not allow for assaulting after the run, you know, the only thing they can do
Night Vision.....Yep, no gun, so typically pointless unless I happen to have a purchased terrain piece, on the first turn of 50% of the games played
Power from Pain, which is a decent rule

Vs:

ATSKNF a decent rule
Chapter Tactics situational depending on the chapter taken
Relentless situational depending on if you take assault cannons or the missile launcher or not
Combat Squad situational depending on how you want to deploy them
Deepstrike Situational depending on deployment choice

Both occupy elites slots, and both have access to transports, The paper thin Dark Eldar ones allow for rapid redeployment if they live that long, the Land Raider is slower, but more likely to make it across the field, and has more guns. 2 Versions of the Land Raider allow you to count as having assault grenades.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

So what do want to drop my Incubi to? They are nowhere near as good as Terminators for most roles, except killing hard targets in melee. They currently cost 20ppm, for +1WS, +1I, -1S, -1T, -1Sv, no ranged weapon of any kind, an AP2 S+1 weapon(as compared to a Sx2 AP2 weapon)

Special Rules:
Fleet which is situational at best especially since fleet does not allow for assaulting after the run, you know, the only thing they can do
Night Vision.....Yep, no gun, so typically pointless unless I happen to have a purchased terrain piece, on the first turn of 50% of the games played
Power from Pain, which is a decent rule

Vs:

ATSKNF a decent rule
Chapter Tactics situational depending on the chapter taken
Relentless situational depending on if you take assault cannons or the missile launcher or not
Combat Squad situational depending on how you want to deploy them
Deepstrike Situational depending on deployment choice

Both occupy elites slots, and both have access to transports, The paper thin Dark Eldar ones allow for rapid redeployment if they live that long, the Land Raider is slower, but more likely to make it across the field, and has more guns. 2 Versions of the Land Raider allow you to count as having assault grenades.

ATSKNF is ok but less useful on Terminators
None of the chapter tactics boost Terminators up to usefulness
Deepstrike is less then stellar and usually gets the unit obliterated without a shot fired
Land Raiders of all types are horribly overcosted and lackluster,and make an expensive unit more expensive.
Terminators have absolutely nothing to do at an extrememly overcosted ppm.
The options of the terminators aren't great.

The way I see it the dark eldar unit have a use and a purpose, and if you play them right they will get back their points. The terminators will not.

That being said, the DE do get boned on a number of fronts. I wouldn't be opposed to some buffs for them. But I'd take Incubi over terminators any day.

 NorseSig wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

So what do want to drop my Incubi to? They are nowhere near as good as Terminators for most roles, except killing hard targets in melee. They currently cost 20ppm, for +1WS, +1I, -1S, -1T, -1Sv, no ranged weapon of any kind, an AP2 S+1 weapon(as compared to a Sx2 AP2 weapon)

Special Rules:
Fleet which is situational at best especially since fleet does not allow for assaulting after the run, you know, the only thing they can do
Night Vision.....Yep, no gun, so typically pointless unless I happen to have a purchased terrain piece, on the first turn of 50% of the games played
Power from Pain, which is a decent rule

Vs:

ATSKNF a decent rule
Chapter Tactics situational depending on the chapter taken
Relentless situational depending on if you take assault cannons or the missile launcher or not
Combat Squad situational depending on how you want to deploy them
Deepstrike Situational depending on deployment choice

Both occupy elites slots, and both have access to transports, The paper thin Dark Eldar ones allow for rapid redeployment if they live that long, the Land Raider is slower, but more likely to make it across the field, and has more guns. 2 Versions of the Land Raider allow you to count as having assault grenades.

ATSKNF is ok but less useful on Terminators
None of the chapter tactics boost Terminators up to usefulness
Deepstrike is less then stellar and usually gets the unit obliterated without a shot fired
Land Raiders of all types are horribly overcosted and lackluster,and make an expensive unit more expensive.
Terminators have absolutely nothing to do at an extrememly overcosted ppm.
The options of the terminators aren't great.

The way I see it the dark eldar unit have a use and a purpose, and if you play them right they will get back their points. The terminators will not.

If the proposed drop on Terminators to 28ppm happens, then Incubi are overpriced. You must look at all variables before you decide to make a drastic ppm change like that. Imagine trying to assault nearly twice as many Terminators with the Incubi, since the Terminators are the target of choice for an Incubi Squad. More hits, more wounds, more dead before they can even get there, not to mention that the Incubi's transport would not weather the extra ranged attacks. If they are dropped to 30-35ppm I would not bat an eye at the price drop, but the "28 at most" or "25-26" is just way to much without screwing the balance of other armies. With that drop, you would then need to adjust every other army, especially the specialist units who rely on their targets higher points cost to do their job effectively.

I am not denying Terminators need a price break, but a 40-50% price drop is far to much.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Aenarel wrote:
Just make them cost 30 points, allow them to take 2 weapon upgrade per five (and drop the cost of AC while we're at it), replace the fist with power weapon (power axe and all) and make the goddamn sergaent useful by allowing the squad to split fire while he's alive or even make him upgradable to be a super sergeant with 2 PV (he's almost a captain after all).
Do the same with assault terminator : 30 points and CC5 (for the vanguard veterans too).

They probably still wouldn't be the best unit ever but they don't need to be as broken as centurion.

At most I would go up to 28 and I am honestly leaning towards the 25-26 price point. They are a bit on par with honour guard, but the honour guard gets better melee and slightly worse shooting and a WAY cheaper transport. I am taking into account that the assault orientated space marine units are overcosted. I could probably live with 3 ranged upgrades total (and a slight price drop for all these options except one) if the assault and reg terms were folded together so you could put some TH+SS termies in the front to better tank wounds. And how exactly are centurions broken? They are very expensive, slow moving, and have short range. They have great firepower and 2 wounds but id say their negatives balance things out. If you aren't careful with them they get blown up

So what do want to drop my Incubi to? They are nowhere near as good as Terminators for most roles, except killing hard targets in melee. They currently cost 20ppm, for +1WS, +1I, -1S, -1T, -1Sv, no ranged weapon of any kind, an AP2 S+1 weapon(as compared to a Sx2 AP2 weapon)

Special Rules:
Fleet which is situational at best especially since fleet does not allow for assaulting after the run, you know, the only thing they can do
Night Vision.....Yep, no gun, so typically pointless unless I happen to have a purchased terrain piece, on the first turn of 50% of the games played
Power from Pain, which is a decent rule

Vs:

ATSKNF a decent rule
Chapter Tactics situational depending on the chapter taken
Relentless situational depending on if you take assault cannons or the missile launcher or not
Combat Squad situational depending on how you want to deploy them
Deepstrike Situational depending on deployment choice

Both occupy elites slots, and both have access to transports, The paper thin Dark Eldar ones allow for rapid redeployment if they live that long, the Land Raider is slower, but more likely to make it across the field, and has more guns. 2 Versions of the Land Raider allow you to count as having assault grenades.

ATSKNF is ok but less useful on Terminators
None of the chapter tactics boost Terminators up to usefulness
Deepstrike is less then stellar and usually gets the unit obliterated without a shot fired
Land Raiders of all types are horribly overcosted and lackluster,and make an expensive unit more expensive.
Terminators have absolutely nothing to do at an extrememly overcosted ppm.
The options of the terminators aren't great.

The way I see it the dark eldar unit have a use and a purpose, and if you play them right they will get back their points. The terminators will not.

If the proposed drop on Terminators to 28ppm happens, then Incubi are overpriced. You must look at all variables before you decide to make a drastic ppm change like that. Imagine trying to assault nearly twice as many Terminators with the Incubi, since the Terminators are the target of choice for an Incubi Squad. More hits, more wounds, more dead before they can even get there, not to mention that the Incubi's transport would not weather the extra ranged attacks. If they are dropped to 30-35ppm I would not bat an eye at the price drop, but the "28 at most" or "25-26" is just way to much without screwing the balance of other armies. With that drop, you would then need to adjust every other army, especially the specialist units who rely on their targets higher points cost to do their job effectively.

I am not denying Terminators need a price break, but a 40-50% price drop is far to much.

Power weapon storm bolter terminators would be fairly priced at 28ppm. Upgrades would increase their cost. A drop in points for terminators doesn't mean other units should get a price drop just because someone can field more terminators. 20 points for an elite melee unit that is decent doesn't sound that bad. Space marines have to pay 25 points for a unit like that. Most likey people wouldn't be taking more terminators with a points drop. They would take other things to make up for the terminator's weaknesses. And no one here is suggesting looking at terminators in a vacuum. I suggested the rules I suggested with other units and armies in mind. With a 28ppm terminator you could still field more incubi than terminators quite easily. You might have to take a few less other things, but then a space marine with more terminators would have less stuff.

Did some number crunching, at 28 points, Incubi assaulting Terminators will leave identical points lost if Terminators are in cover. Though it does leave the Incubi in worse overall shape as they lose the combat by number of models lost, having only 3 from each squad, on average, left. I used 10 Incubi with no upgrades Vs 7 Terminators including their free Sgt. Out of Cover the Terminators die horribly, and Terminators lose if they charge, but with a 24" gun, they can move out of assault range for at least 2 turns before the Fleet ability gets the Incubi Close enough.

Meaning 30 points per model is a good cost for models that can both shoot, and survive an assault against a unit specialized to handle them.

I would agree a cost of less than 30 points makes them useable, if Terminators start loosing things, like that Invulnerable save, or their gun.

That Space Marine CC unit that costs 25 points for decent close combat also gets to shoot, doesn't it? The Incubi do not.

The catch is that Incubi technically get AP2 combat weapons that strike at initiative.

The other side of Termis/Honor Guard get guns, however, is that they generally have relatively poor guns. Bolter/Stormbolters are not that impressive when you're forced to compare them to Shuriken weapons (pseudo-rending), Gauss (auto-glance/-wound), Tesla (200% more hits on To-Hit of 6), Splinter weapons (4+ Poison), or Pulse Rifles (S5+30" range).

When the competition for "best infantry service rifle of 40K" is held, the bolter is definitely not going to be on top. I'd even rank lasguns higher, if only because there's the Order system to increase RoF, and Pulse weapons also have a similar mechanic in Fireblades+Ethereals. Throw in the previously-mentioned benefits of literally any other standard infantry rifle, and even the "mighty" stormbolter is pretty much worthless.

Terminator shooting is unimpressive. Which is unfortunate, because ACs and stormbolters are totally badass.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The catch is that Incubi technically get AP2 combat weapons that strike at initiative.

The other side of Termis/Honor Guard get guns, however, is that they generally have relatively poor guns. Bolter/Stormbolters are not that impressive when you're forced to compare them to Shuriken weapons (pseudo-rending), Gauss (auto-glance/-wound), Tesla (200% more hits on To-Hit of 6), Splinter weapons (4+ Poison), or Pulse Rifles (S5+30" range).

When the competition for "best infantry service rifle of 40K" is held, the bolter is definitely not going to be on top. I'd even rank lasguns higher, if only because there's the Order system to increase RoF, and Pulse weapons also have a similar mechanic in Fireblades+Ethereals. Throw in the previously-mentioned benefits of literally any other standard infantry rifle, and even the "mighty" stormbolter is pretty much worthless.

Terminator shooting is unimpressive. Which is unfortunate, because ACs and stormbolters are totally badass.

But they at least get a gun, which is more than the Incubi get. If you remove all the terrain, more than a quarter of those Incubi will not even make it to the Terminators, then the following assault, though horrific for the Terminators will still see the Incubi Decimated. Here lets assume a 200 point Unbound game, with a squad of Terminators, and a squad of Incubi.

With no terrain to slow you down, you get 14 attacks per turn with no reprisal, 9.24 hits, 6.0984 wounds, 2.012472 kills every turn. The incubi get to move 7-12" per turn, then you move back 6", so assuming both set their squad up as near the opponent as possible, 24" away, then move, it will take the Incubi 3-4 truns to get close enough to launch an assault, because you know they can't assault after running. That is a little over 6 dead Incubi, leaving 4 in the squad, to attack the Terminators. The overwatch will likely kill/finish off the partial left from shooting. Leaving 9 really good attacks to go before the Terminators get their attacks, 5.94 hits, 2.97 wounds, 1.96 Terminators dead. Terminator Reprisal will net 5 hits, 4.167 wounds, all Incubi are now dead. Did I mention the Incubi cost 4 points more than the 7 terminators at 28 points each?

That "unimpressive" shooting is a huge benefit.

Now lets do the same thing at current price, both squads cost exactly 200points.
5 terminators get 10 shots, 6.6 hit, 4.356 wound, 1.43748 dead Incubi leaving a little over 4 dead Incubi, still lose 1 from overwatch, leaving 5 to assault.
15 attacks, 9.9 hit, 4.95 wounds, 3.267 dead Terminators.
Terminator Reprisal 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.667 dead Incubi, following round Terminators are dead. and only 3 Incubi left.

Add in terrain, and the Terminators do a lot better, but not so much better that I believe the 40ppm is a good cost, However 28ppm is far to cheap. I stand by my assertion that 30-35ppm is a good range, or drop the cost of my Incubi, or remove that free sergeant, or remove the free Invulnerable save, or the "unimpressive" Storm Bolter.

Also note, that the Terminators/heavy Infantry are the target of choice for Incubi, their "specialization" if you will.


Yes, I realize that 30ppm will net the same result as 28ppm, however I am including, in my calculations, other synergistic effects that may occur/be planned for in both armies. How many Incubi squads actually make it to the table without a Raider? That alone increase the likelihood of them making it to those terminators intact.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
The catch is that Incubi technically get AP2 combat weapons that strike at initiative.

The other side of Termis/Honor Guard get guns, however, is that they generally have relatively poor guns. Bolter/Stormbolters are not that impressive when you're forced to compare them to Shuriken weapons (pseudo-rending), Gauss (auto-glance/-wound), Tesla (200% more hits on To-Hit of 6), Splinter weapons (4+ Poison), or Pulse Rifles (S5+30" range).

When the competition for "best infantry service rifle of 40K" is held, the bolter is definitely not going to be on top. I'd even rank lasguns higher, if only because there's the Order system to increase RoF, and Pulse weapons also have a similar mechanic in Fireblades+Ethereals. Throw in the previously-mentioned benefits of literally any other standard infantry rifle, and even the "mighty" stormbolter is pretty much worthless.

Terminator shooting is unimpressive. Which is unfortunate, because ACs and stormbolters are totally badass.

But they at least get a gun, which is more than the Incubi get. If you remove all the terrain, more than a quarter of those Incubi will not even make it to the Terminators, then the following assault, though horrific for the Terminators will still see the Incubi Decimated. Here lets assume a 200 point Unbound game, with a squad of Terminators, and a squad of Incubi.

With no terrain to slow you down, you get 14 attacks per turn with no reprisal, 9.24 hits, 6.0984 wounds, 2.012472 kills every turn. The incubi get to move 7-12" per turn, then you move back 6", so assuming both set their squad up as near the opponent as possible, 24" away, then move, it will take the Incubi 3-4 truns to get close enough to launch an assault, because you know they can't assault after running. That is a little over 6 dead Incubi, leaving 4 in the squad, to attack the Terminators. The overwatch will likely kill/finish off the partial left from shooting. Leaving 9 really good attacks to go before the Terminators get their attacks, 5.94 hits, 2.97 wounds, 1.96 Terminators dead. Terminator Reprisal will net 5 hits, 4.167 wounds, all Incubi are now dead. Did I mention the Incubi cost 4 points more than the 7 terminators at 28 points each?

That "unimpressive" shooting is a huge benefit.

Now lets do the same thing at current price, both squads cost exactly 200points.
5 terminators get 10 shots, 6.6 hit, 4.356 wound, 1.43748 dead Incubi leaving a little over 4 dead Incubi, still lose 1 from overwatch, leaving 5 to assault.
15 attacks, 9.9 hit, 4.95 wounds, 3.267 dead Terminators.
Terminator Reprisal 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.667 dead Incubi, following round Terminators are dead. and only 3 Incubi left.

Add in terrain, and the Terminators do a lot better, but not so much better that I believe the 40ppm is a good cost, However 28ppm is far to cheap. I stand by my assertion that 30-35ppm is a good range, or drop the cost of my Incubi, or remove that free sergeant, or remove the free Invulnerable save, or the "unimpressive" Storm Bolter.

Also note, that the Terminators/heavy Infantry are the target of choice for Incubi, their "specialization" if you will.


Yes, I realize that 30ppm will net the same result as 28ppm, however I am including, in my calculations, other synergistic effects that may occur/be planned for in both armies. How many Incubi squads actually make it to the table without a Raider? That alone increase the likelihood of them making it to those terminators intact.

Terminators might as well not have guns. That's the problem.

If they don't have guns, they get either:
Claws: +1A, reroll wounds, retain their I (only relevant if Incubi charge into cover), and still wound on 3+ and AP Incubi. A huge improvement.
2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 5/6 kills/model w/PF
3x(1/2)(8/9)(1) = 8/6 kills/model w/claws.
More than 50% more killed.

Or Shield:
Same melee damage done.
Half the AP2 wounds failed (5+ -> 3+)
Also a massive improvement in melee.

Either way, they get better against a specific counter for them.

(32 points, or thereabouts, seems right?)

I use DA for the Emperors Sake! 44pts per model fitting them with an assault cannon and a chain fist suddenly cost 245points ~!!!!!!!!!!!! on the flip side on DS I do get to be twin linked, have switch fire and DS in first or second turn with out rolling! we also have the ability mix CCW and shooty weapons in the same squad and have a purpose built CC unit in the DW knights (135points) which have the ability to increas their toughness by 1 and have a once per game +6S bane of the traitor concussive AP2 CW attack

i think the best way to fix the issue of terminators is:

1 - Increase the strength of the Stormbolter to 5 and make it AP3

2 - Allow upto 3 terminators to take Cyclone missile launchers for 15 points but not allow it to take Flakk

3 - increase their S and T to 5

this would allow them greater tactical flexibilty and be worth the points that they are currently at.

Afraid Termies die inappropriately to large amount garbage fire?
Easy fix: armor 2+ re-rolls.
Still die to AP 2-1 fire which is the right weapon to kill them (still 5+ Inv).
Done.

 Talizvar wrote:
Afraid Termies die inappropriately to large amount garbage fire?
Easy fix: armor 2+ re-rolls.
Still die to AP 2-1 fire which is the right weapon to kill them (still 5+ Inv).
Done.

Doesn't everything die inappropriately to large amounts of fire?

A lot of attacks will do that to many things. And that "Garbage Fire" isn't so much garbage against a T3 model.

@Talizvar

Hey, that actually works.

IG spam plasma anyway so they are fine, and orks have klaws.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Afraid Termies die inappropriately to large amount garbage fire?
Easy fix: armor 2+ re-rolls.
Still die to AP 2-1 fire which is the right weapon to kill them (still 5+ Inv).
Done.

Doesn't everything die inappropriately to large amounts of fire?

A lot of attacks will do that to many things. And that "Garbage Fire" isn't so much garbage against a T3 model.

But in the case of terminators, it doesn't have to be that large. They have only double durability against small arms, but cost more than twice as much. So they aren't even good against the things they are supposed to be good against. Their 5++ doesn't make them more durable against AP 2, either, because again, they are paying more than twice as many points.

1 - Increase the strength of the Storm Bolter to 5 and make it AP3: To much, maybe up the RoF to 3 and Possibly AP4

2 - Allow up to 3 terminators to take Cyclone missile launchers for 15 points but not allow it to take Flakk: That seems reasonable, and I would actually still think the flakk option would work giving marines a way to handle Flyer Spam. More points for Flakk just like every other army, maybe not allow the missile launchers to fire over watch.(I don't think heavy weapons should be allowed to over watch as a general rule anyway)

3 - increase their S and T to 5: I could see the T5, but the S5 is already made up with the Fist making them S8, S10 attacks in mass sounds a bit rough

this would allow them greater tactical flexibility and be worth the points that they are currently at.

A lot of the suggestions here are straight busted man. The ripple effect of such changes is huge.

Re-rolling 2+ saves? Thats 1/36 failing. Now consider ICs in TDA.. they get ridiculously durable. Papa smurf. smash*ucker. Lysander. Draigo.

Ignoring ap2 or worse? Again ICs, but even a nilla unit that can walk around shrugging plasma like bolter fire is just wrong.

26 ppm? So 5 guys with 2+/5+ saves, power weapons, better stock ranged weapons, relentless heavy weapons and deep strike costs 130 pts?

The problem with terminators isn't cost or durability its damage output. Increasing durability or decreasing cost throws everything else out of whack. Consider centurions for a moment. 80 ppm with no invuln no mobility outside of psych or transports yet they are broken because of grav.

I've been playing pure terminator armies in various iterations since 3rd edition. For most of that they have been underdogs. I would love for termies to get better but IMO besides bringing C:SM in line with wolves/gk the only way to do that is to increase damage output.. i.e. bring back 2 hvy weapons for 5 and boost stormbolters slightly. Maybe different weapon access idk. Anything else starts to get broken due to the access to TDA suits in HQ and troops.

Edit- To elaborate, the weapon options suck. Combis suck by virtue of 1 use only and nothing to be supplement to (like a reusable weapon). Hvy weapon options are the worst of the bunch. CMLs used to be relevant back in 5th (I ran upwards of 23 missiles iirc) but now they are meh. Now what if TDA had access to full special/heavy options.. then things get real. Dual multimelta terminators with 3 grav for example. Expensive but flexible and lethal to everything.