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I want what I want, and I want it now!



As my kids learned in preschool, "you get what you get, and you don't get upset."

If you don't like what they say or how they say it, don't visit their page or spend time considering the information that they share.

They have no duty to tell us anything,

and I actually like it when they squelch rumours where they can, no point getting all excited and worked up over an upcoming new release you imagine is going to be next month when it's not going to be for ages

 gorgon wrote:

If you don't like what they say or how they say it, don't visit their page or spend time considering the information that they share.

I dont, only whats posted here whenever posts what their page mentions, which leaves a lot to desire in regards to actually information

No they dont have to give any information that is true, but if they are going to give information, then actually give information.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

If you don't like what they say or how they say it, don't visit their page or spend time considering the information that they share.

I dont, only whats posted here whenever posts what their page mentions, which leaves a lot to desire in regards to actually information

No they dont have to give any information that is true, but if they are going to give information, then actually give information.

I recommend taking this discussion to another thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448304.page

Is as good a place as any for this particular discussion.

Yes please keep the discussion here to the HH plastics rumor rather than the potential quality of rumors about the rumor.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I buy FW for the sharpness of detail, while I hope these are good I don't think I'm automatically going to buy these. You only have to look at the Mk6's shoulder pad with studs that already appears in plastic to see why plastic isn't automatically a good thing. I'm most interested in the pre-heresy rhino but that's for my chaos army.

One of the newer plastic studded pads is quite good, it might be the one from the tacticals.
I don't like the plastic version of the MKIV though so I'd hope any plastic HH set didn't use that design.

It would be nice to let this free up fw so they can do more epic stuff rather bog standerd stuff.

So tell me when you have somthing more solid than a orks armor save.

Computron wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I buy FW for the sharpness of detail, while I hope these are good I don't think I'm automatically going to buy these. You only have to look at the Mk6's shoulder pad with studs that already appears in plastic to see why plastic isn't automatically a good thing. I'm most interested in the pre-heresy rhino but that's for my chaos army.

One of the newer plastic studded pads is quite good, it might be the one from the tacticals.
I don't like the plastic version of the MKIV though so I'd hope any plastic HH set didn't use that design.

There has been some contradiction between rumor sources... Initially the plastics in the hypothetical set were going to be Mk4 with an eventual second starter with Mk5, and only more recently did this first set become rumored as a mix of the different armors that precede Mk5.

Mk4, Mk5, and Mk6 all have studs in different place which means undercuts, those are something that historically look better in resin. At this point I'm mostly interested in Mk5.

 gorgon wrote:

 endtransmission wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
The saltiest part is the Deimos Pattern Rhino/Predator.

That twigged with me as well. I just don't see them doing a slightly different Rhino kit.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a full new kit. If the FW Demios pattern bits are selling well enough, it would be simple enough to do an upgrade sprue that just contains the upgrade pieces so they can sell it as an online-only sprue for the normal Rhino kit.

Possible, but they've mostly moved away from upgrade sprues, and per Hastings they want to sell this stuff in their retail stores.

Technically the Razorback/Predator/WW/etc kits are all "upgrade sprues". A Deimos Rhino could be packaged in a similar fashion, with the Deimos parts on their own sprue packaged in the box. Probably end up paying a premium for that over the regular kit, but it's not out of the question that they could do such a thing.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Computron wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I buy FW for the sharpness of detail, while I hope these are good I don't think I'm automatically going to buy these. You only have to look at the Mk6's shoulder pad with studs that already appears in plastic to see why plastic isn't automatically a good thing. I'm most interested in the pre-heresy rhino but that's for my chaos army.

One of the newer plastic studded pads is quite good, it might be the one from the tacticals.
I don't like the plastic version of the MKIV though so I'd hope any plastic HH set didn't use that design.

There has been some contradiction between rumor sources... Initially the plastics in the hypothetical set were going to be Mk4 with an eventual second starter with Mk5, and only more recently did this first set become rumored as a mix of the different armors that precede Mk5.

Mk4, Mk5, and Mk6 all have studs in different place which means undercuts, those are something that historically look better in resin. At this point I'm mostly interested in Mk5.

Mk5 isn't an armor pattern tho. It's a collection of mk2-4 pieces hobbled together by the shattered legions or those without resupply of mk4 during the heresy. You can make mk5 simply by kit bashing other armor types

Uh...



Don't really see a whole lot of Mk. II - IV parts in there. Looks like a pretty distinct design of it's own.

From Lexicanium...

The equipping of the legions was only partially complete when the Horus Heresy broke out. Many of the Legions that had just been fully equipped with Mark IV armour turned against the Imperium while many of the loyal Legions had been deliberately starved of access to it and and remained operating with the older Mark II and Mark III armour. Additionally, even the Legions equipped with Mark IV suits quickly found themselves low on spare parts and unable to manufacture replacement units. With war damage and mobile operations, resupply for damaged equipment was difficult or impossible. Marine artificers and Techmarines had to use old style equipment from older models to keep the legions fighting, as well as salavage from slain enemies and unorthodox inovations of their own.[1,8]
This ad-hoc assemblage of various armour mark segments (including new or unoffical design elements) being created by a multitude of legions resulted in an entirely new mark of armour being 'accidentally' created; these previously non-standard, emergency/stopgap designs were retroactively termed as the Mark V once production of the Mark IV was halted and the design for the subsequent Corvus Armour mark (Mark VI) was finalised. Some form of standardisation across Mark V suits is is notable, despite their apparently random creation and individual varied origins, due to the dissemination of molecular bonding techniques across the legions. These techniques were developed due to battlefield experiece in fighting other Astartes; Astartes plate needed to be proof against their own penetrator weapons, and it was discovered that power armour would benefit from additional reinforcing in this regard.[6] All sorts of improvised additional armour can be seen on Mark V suits, but the most common technique was affix additional layers of armour with the aforementioned molecular bonding studs. This relatively quick and simple technique effectively added another ablative layer to marine armour suits. The extra weight this generated would prove considerable, however, which placed a strain on power supplies. As the addition of extra power generation sources and cabling would just require more armour plating, catching the design in an eternal circle, the wearers of the suit was forced to either deal with the additional weight, or turn up the power output of his backpack but suffer extreme heat output, which not only would prove uncomfortable and even compromising in certain situations,[1,8] and in many cases older, heavy power cabling was used, which created a weak point on the chest[8]
Many Mark V suits ended up featuring an unusual helmet design appropriated from supplies generated by the Tactical Dreadnought Armour program; this spin-off helmet featured similar levels of improved auto-senses as Terminator suits, but was still found to be inferior to those of Mark IV suits.[1] The respirator used for this helmet was codified as the Mantilla-pattern, and saw use as early as late M30.[10]
The Mark V would be the most common armour mark visible during the Horus Heresy, by its nature as a mark resulting directly from the concerns of that galactic civil war. As a result, the Mark V is commonly called the Heresy Suit and is distinguished by the molecular bonding studs often seem on areas such as helmet, shoulder plates and greaves. Few Imperial Space Marines are ever seen in Mark V suits today, as the loyalist Chapters either broke up these suits for spares or purposefully destroyed them after the Heresy was over. In contrast, many Chaos Space Marines still wear Mark V armour by default[1], either because they still possess their original suits or because they are forced to scavenge equipment.
This power armour carries resonances of the Imperium’s darkest hour and its greatest victory. Battle-Brothers will offer the wearer their respect. However, members of the Inquisition are instinctively suspicious of any connection to the Horus Heresy.

It all depends on how closely GW stick to their own fluff, I suppose?

Both views are correct, if you see the HH books you will find all the parts of the MK5 suits as variant patterns on other marks of the armour - eg. the Mantilla pattern helmet on Mk4s etc.

FW has just made the Mk5s with this bits so that they look different - there's nothing to stop you mixing 5 in with earlier marks to make these variant patterns.

 sockwithaticket wrote:

Uh...



Don't really see a whole lot of Mk. II - IV parts in there. Looks like a pretty distinct design of it's own.

Only because fw wanted to keep the number of parts to a minimum. They even recycled the plastic torso for that set.

Out of the 8 official marks only about 5 are actual marks.

mk1 - not space marine armour but use as a base for marine armour so not a mark.
mk2 - the first real space marine armour mark
mk3 - heavier specialist version of mk2 so not a mark, would better be thought of as mk2hv
mk4 - the second evolution in marine armour
mk5 - whatever was available. The cobbled together armours during the heresy took on a similar appearance after awhile hence the inclusion of the "heresy look" as a mark but not a real mark
mk6 - trialed as a possible replacement for mk4 prior to the heresy, replaced mk4 at the end of the heresy due to cost - I don't know if it's better or not.
mk7 - based on mk6, has added chest protection - again I don't know if this is better than previous mark
mk8 - upgraded mk7 so definite improvement over earlier mark

So mks 1, 3 and 5 are not actual mks.
Still a lot of holes in armour evolution.
mk2 originally had a helmet that was fixed like an astronaut. Mk4 was the first armour to have a helmet that was separate but I think that's been retconned.

Anyone know why mk7 was created?
Was it because they couldn't produce mk6 as those facilities were on Mars which had been taken by the traitors? Dunno.

Oh good, now we're arguing fluff and design in an N&R thread. That's never happened before.

Well, yeah. Someone's gotta be more right than everyone else. It's the internet.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Oh good, now we're arguing fluff and design in an N&R thread. That's never happened before.

You're wrong. People argue about fluff all the time. Take that back.

If this turns out to be true it's finally a smart play by GW, though it's taken them ages. As for the Mark V armor not being an armor, if you read one of the BL Heresy books (I forget which one at the moment) but the one that has the Auretian Technocracy in it they are described as having a type of advanced power armor. After their world is conquered Horus takes the design of the new power armor and sends it back to the Mechanicum and they supply his legion with the new "Mark V" armor

Besides, Mark V has had a distinctive look since (at least) 1991.

 TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
If this turns out to be true it's finally a smart play by GW...

I don't see how taking sales away from another part of their company (FW) which has been doing gangbusters (with HH) is a smart move.

Besides, FW has repeatedly said at the last HH weekender that there would be no HH plastics.

 Moopy wrote:
I don't see how taking sales away from another part of their company (FW) which has been doing gangbusters (with HH) is a smart move.

Because plastics, generally available in stores and stockists, will make more money.

Yes, gangbusters for FW is small potatoes for big daddy GW, we don't know how much cash FW generates by itself, but the website, Black Library and FW combined is about 20% of GW's total revenue.

Making plastics drops unit cost and extends product reach.

Remeber, FW is also GW's chief growth driver. They admitted as much in their 2013 financials, alongside Black Library. While GW prime sales stagnate or decrease, FW sees something like 8-13% annual growth. That doesn't amount to a huge amount of money, given their comparative small size, so GW would probably want to capitalize on that revenue more with greater availability, whatever form that may take.

Of course, GW also completely fails to understand why FW is experience growth, vis-a-vis better rules quality and a less schizophrenic, fluff-destroying theme to their model releases....

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Remeber, FW is also GW's chief growth driver. They admitted as much in their 2013 financials, alongside Black Library.

I don't those numbers continued linearly from there. The 2013 report saw GW as a whole bursting with their most profitable non-LoTR-year in the history of company. It predates the (in comparison) weaker subsequent years when GW (with or without FW) started to loose sales.

It was also the year Forge World basically switched from non-Heresy to doing Heresy with the release of the first book and Angron at the UK Games Day in 2012, and it generally was still a year of Games Days, etc.. It's been said a few times that Forge World took a bad hit when Games Days were dropped, as these kind of events were crucial to FW-business, despite overheads and staff costs being paid for by "GW-main". If FW has to pay their overhead for "Weekenders" now, their margins will be lower. Also, the odd Weekender in Notthingham will not be able to replace multiple Games Days the world over.

I'd further doubt that the one-time jump they experienced by going from obscure IA-books about Eldar/Necrons, etc.. to Heresy would turn into something like linear growth of the same magnitude afterwards.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Remeber, FW is also GW's chief growth driver. They admitted as much in their 2013 financials, alongside Black Library.

I don't those numbers continued linearly from there. The 2013 report saw GW as a whole bursting with their most profitable non-LoTR-year in the history of company. It predates the (in comparison) weaker subsequent years when GW (with or without FW) started to loose sales.

It was also the year Forge World basically switched from non-Heresy to doing Heresy with the release of the first book and Angron at the UK Games Day in 2012, and it generally was still a year of Games Days, etc.. It's been said a few times that Forge World took a bad hit when Games Days were dropped, as these kind of events were crucial to FW-business, despite overheads and staff costs being paid for by "GW-main". If FW has to pay their overhead for "Weekenders" now, their margins will be lower. Also, the odd Weekender in Notthingham will not be able to replace multiple Games Days the world over.

I'd further doubt that the one-time jump they experienced by going from obscure IA-books about Eldar/Necrons, etc.. to Heresy would turn into something like linear growth of the same magnitude afterwards.

All valid points, as GW's silence on the matter in their latest financial would indicate there is less excitement all around. However, they can see that FW has strong appeal; the Heresy has been their golden goose at Black Library (with all the attendant drop in quality and extreme slow-down of plot speed), and it did generate massive revenue for FW; making some basic elements available for general purchase, especially in their regularly lacklustre GW "Hobby Centers" (the main loss driver in the company) makes a lot of sense, even to incompetent GW.

 MajorStoffer wrote:


All valid points, as GW's silence on the matter in their latest financial would indicate there is less excitement all around. However, they can see that FW has strong appeal; the Heresy has been their golden goose at Black Library (with all the attendant drop in quality and extreme slow-down of plot speed), and it did generate massive revenue for FW; making some basic elements available for general purchase, especially in their regularly lacklustre GW "Hobby Centers" (the main loss driver in the company) makes a lot of sense, even to incompetent GW.

No doubt about that.

But there's nothing intrinsically "Forge World" or "Black Library" about the success of the Heresy. FW didn't hit the jackpot with .. dunno ... Imperial Armour: Eldar with bee-wings or whatever, no matter how much " vis-a-vis better rules quality and a less schizophrenic, fluff-destroying theme to their model releases...." they put into it. Forge World's attempt at Fantasy was quite possibly the worst GW feth-up in the plethora of GW-feth-ups of the last 5 years. BL continually fails to make non-Space Marines sell, be it more Abnett-Inquisitor stuff or Warhammer Age or Legends or whatever.

Heresy sells, because its Space Marines. For all the faults of GW-main, the one thing they still sell like hot cakes, are Space Marines. So now they sell even more variants of Space Marines.

Whatever qualities FW or BL have or do not have vis-a-vis GW-main, they are irrelevant. Their relative "success" is a result of doing more Space Marines and less not-Space Marines, a recipe GW has been following for years and is apparently now going to double-down on with a vengeance.

If Forge World/Black Library are doing slightly better than GW overall, it's only because their ratio of Space Marine-releases vs. non-Space-Marine-releases is even more skewed towards the former than that of GW-main.

Forge World/Black Library aren't the slightest bit more "competent" than GW-main. They fethed up everything non-Space Marine they ever touched even worse than GW-main and have been forced to stake their continued success on Space Marines even more thoroughly than GW-main has (thus far).

I still find it insane that they don't sell FW stuff in their stores. Although if the rumours are to be believed that may be changing.......

The "Space Marine" phenomena no doubt plays a big role in this, but I wouldn't discount the rules side of this particular case with FW's Horus Heresy line. FW provided a much tamer, structured ruleset than GW has produced in quite some time, with a clear link between fluff and rules (which is a big thing for Marines too, given how massively disconnected those things have been) and are customizeable without being glaringly imbalanced. Since establishing that core, they have since started to expand into non-Marines for the Heresy; Mechanicum and Auxilia which all generate a lot of buzz. No doubt, this is FW's most "mainstream" product they've ever released; what came before was always a niche within a niche and no one would argue that, but it was always very attractive to those within the targeted niche. Almost everyone I know at this point has a FW presence in their armies, the non-Marine players moreso (A case, no doubt of "oh look, someone finally gave my faction some love! certainly was my case with the Death Korps; GW doesn't seem to give a flying feth about Guard anymore rules or models wise, but FW does)

Almost everyone I know with interest in FW's HH states two things; nicer models and much better balance. Of course, that's easier with less unique factions (no secret Xenos are the big balance issues at present in 40k), but as more non-Marine options develop, and 40k prime continues to frustrated people more and more, I see more enthusiasm in the idea, which is only blocked due to price of making an army.

To GW, no doubt, the draw is "Space Marines sell, so let's see if we can give FW a boost and add more winning products to our stores," and they're not wrong; there's probably plenty of Marine fanboys with no interest in playing the HH ruleset or buying a single FW product, but will jump on new Marine products, but no small amount of such a theoretical product's success will be driven by the desire to play the ruleset and setting. Its lasting success will rest more on those people, I imagine, than "oh look, I can buy more tactical marines!"

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The "Space Marine" phenomena no doubt plays a big role in this, but I wouldn't discount the rules side of this particular case with FW's Horus Heresy line. FW provided a much tamer, structured ruleset than GW has produced in quite some time, with a clear link between fluff and rules (which is a big thing for Marines too, given how massively disconnected those things have been) and are customizeable without being glaringly imbalanced.

I doubt that.

If the "disconnect" is such a grave issue, why do GW Space Marines still sell?

If FW's allegedly better, tamer rules and understanding of the fluff, why have the continuously failed to make that comparative advantage work for anything that isn't selling on the "Space-Marine"-factor by itself (see above)?

It's simply mathematics. Forge World's Space Marine product-range vs. their .. say .. Dark Eldar product-range is easily 100 to 1, if not more. For GW-main, it's at best 10 to 1.
Forge Worlds 40K vs. Fantasy ratio is easily 1000 to 1. GW's is maybe 5 to 1?.

If GW would change their Marines to Dark Eldar (or other Xenos) ratio, not to mention the 40K to Fantasy ratio, to Forge World-like-dimensions, they'd relatively outgrow FW many times over, no matter how "inferior" their rules and/or understanding of the fluff may be.

Looking at both Fantasy and plastic-Heresy-rumours, that's what they apparently plan on doing.

Well that's the eternal debate isn't it?

Marines get the limelight, therefore marines sell. But marines sell, therefore they get the limelight.

Most of the books, games and so on focus on Marines, it's no surprise that when people get into the game, their first army is often marines. They've got beginner friendly rules, lower average model count, therefore cheaper, and the most diversity in terms of model range and rules options.

However, at the same time, what put FW on the radar? The Imperial Guard. The Death Korps, Elysian and Renegade lines were their first "blockbuster" product line, moving beyond their alternate tank models (again, mostly Guard) and Apocalypse stuff. They always produced marine stuff; the original drop pod, chapter/legion specific Dreadnoughts, but what really made them a big deal, what made them money was guard. It's no secret that almost every IA book was Guard vs Something Else, several lacking any Marine presence whatsoever.

The Badab War was their sole pre-HH product that was Marine focused, and was popular mostly for introducing a bunch of new Marine characters with which one could play chapters beyond the standard Codex ones, but didn't generate anywhere near the same interest as HH. To this day, how many Seige Assault Vanguard or Tyrant's Legion armies do you see? How many Badab chapters aside from the occasional Minotaur or Red Scorpion?

There's more to HH than just "it's Marines, therefore it does well," if anything, the initial response to it was ambivalent due to it being Marine on Marine, but has developed over time in response to solid rules and diversity in spite of it being Marine on Marine.

Now, it's entirely possible I'm biased from my environment; Marine armies are few and far between, of my club of about 15 regulars and another 15 irregulars, there are only 3 marine primary players (only one of the regulars, who's brand new), and total people with Marine armies is 7 (4 regulars, three irregulars). It's rare to see more than a single MEQ army out in play on an average game night, and I've never seen more than three, especially with CSM players having lost the will to keep using their codex. The local tournaments see a lot more marines (invisible cent-star being very popular, hence why I never go to tournaments), but enthusiasm for HH locally had to overcome a pretty solid anti-marine bias, only the cost has stopped it from exploding; almost everyone has lists written up, has mathhammered their favourite units against one another and so on. If the core 40k ruleset was to change and be as well designed as the HH spinoff, the enthusiasm for it would die off almost instantly locally.