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Reading a post earlier and I got to wondering, what would some real life 40k weapons be? I imagine a AK would roughly equate to a stub gun. Any army guys or gun nuts out there? What would the Av on a Sherman tank look like?

The way sizes get inflated in 40k I don't expect any real-life vehicle to end up with an AV of past about eleven; the biggest and scariest assault rifles are still only S3/AP- autoguns in 40k. 40k is big and over-the-top, nothing from today is about to compete.

The basic autogun fires a round caliber close to those found in sniper rifles, not assault rifles. All 40K weapons are either inflated or completely alien- there is no real world equivilant to most.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The basic autogun fires a round caliber close to those found in sniper rifles, not assault rifles.

Calibre alone is relatively meaningless as a statistic. 9mm NATO is a bigger calibre than 5.56mm NATO, but because of much higher pressure limits (55,000 psi rather than 35,000 psi) the latter is still the more powerful round.

The old Vraks books are actually helpful enough to give us some slightly more meaningful figures, such as a muzzle velocity for the "Long 8.25mm" round - 820m/s - and wording such as "the oversized round fired gives this weapon an excessive recoil" that imply that the Long 8.25mm is an unusually powerful round for an autogun (particularly given it's still considered to recoil excessively despite the considerable 6.2kg weight of the weapon).
The Imperium have a tendency to use fairly blunt bullets (in un-shouldered cases), so it's a reasonable guess that the 8.25mm bullet weighs in the region of 8 to 10 grams - which makes it a round of about 3000 Joules, not dissimilar to the 7.62mm NATO that is used in some assault rifles. Relatively powerful, but not beyond our ken.

(However, what the Vraks books can also give us is an indication that the writers don't always have a grasp on ballistics. The Agrippian pattern autogun is believable enough, but one autopistol is given a 250m/s muzzle velocity, which is... well, low for most pistols, and certainly not very intimidating in combination with a 4.1mm calibre. Air rifles are frequently more powerful than that).

In any case, we know from 40kRP and Inquisitor approximate sizes and weights for many weapons (after we've filtered out the heroic scale of the models, which dramatically exaggerates weapon sizes for visibility on the table). The various quoted capacities of stub-pistol magazines imply that double stacked magazines are common, which puts significant limits on the size of a round (otherwise the grip would be too large for people's hands) - which ties in with quoted weights in the 1.3kg-1.5kg range... which is not unusual for a (non-compact) modern pistol, at least once loaded - steel framed models tend to hover around 0.9-1.1 kg unloaded and, depending on capacity, a loaded magazine can be 300g quite easily. (Polymer framed pistols are usually a sight lighter though, but I can't see the Imperium being big on polymer frames!).

As such, it's fairly reasonable to interpret solid slug firearms as a bit bigger on average than modern day stuff... but nothing unusual by any means.

Bolters and Lasguns are of course their own breed - not that we couldn't do bolters today, but it's not something we have a need to (we don't have power armoured super soldiers or Orks that need to be killed).

~~~~~

As far as armour? Well, the Sherman's 76mm of armour sounds like quite a lot, but while it provides good protection against anti-infantry weapons, it is not a particularly sure defence against anti-tank weapons.
I'm not certain I'd peg a pulse rifle or heavy bolter as being able to glance a Sherman, so possibly AV12, but I'm not so uncertain that they couldn't that I'd argue that strongly against AV11.

Possibly I'd go for AV 12 on the front and AV 11 to the sides (as it's the tracks that would be most at risk against that kind of weapon).

A little bit about the WW1 era SAWs like Lewis, Chauchat and Madsen ? is it Autogun or Heavy Stubber?

http://www.reurnthai.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=41533ebca801898cba824ee1ee1cb104&action=dlattach;topic=4942.0;attach=29781;image

All of the firearms designed/produced during 20th century can be categorized as Stub and/or Auto -weapons.

Vehicles can't really be compared, since the metallurgy in WH40k is way ahead. Sherman would propably have AV 7 on front. Something like Abrams would have propably as good armour as a Chimera. (At best.)

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sherman would propably have AV 7 on front.

There's no way that adds up. That would give an autogun 4+ to equal or beat the armour (and therefore do some level of damage to the tank), the same chance as to wound a normal T3 human.

Whatever the AV of a Sherman is, it's not going to be massive, but the armour is three inches of steel. It should at least be shrugging off things like autoguns and Heavy Stubbers.

I assume a Nemesis weapon can be comparable to the wrath of a modern day woman scorned?

Or is this closer to cyclonic torpedoes?

Also, the armor of Leman Russes aren't standardized, in fact, nothing in the Imperium really save potentially power armor and bolters is standardized. A Leman Russ from one forge world may have peerless armor and shrug off railgun shots, while another from a different planet may crumple to a single modern AGTM missile.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, the armor of Leman Russes aren't standardized, in fact, nothing in the Imperium really save potentially power armor and bolters is standardized. A Leman Russ from one forge world may have peerless armor and shrug off railgun shots, while another from a different planet may crumple to a single modern AGTM missile.

Uhhhhh what? The Imperium is all about standardisation, the Blueprints for a LRBT are the same on every forgeworld, because if they weren't then that is altering an STC, the holy word of the Omnissiah himself and thus, tech-heresy and someone's burning at the stake, they are called Standard Template Constructs for a reason.

Now one forgeworld might have access to minerals from a world that has access to a lost design of ore refinery that they don't know how to fix or build if it breaks because they don't have a STC for it, and thus their LRBT might be of slightly superior quality due to superior construction materials, but that's about it.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, the armor of Leman Russes aren't standardized, in fact, nothing in the Imperium really save potentially power armor and bolters is standardized. A Leman Russ from one forge world may have peerless armor and shrug off railgun shots, while another from a different planet may crumple to a single modern AGTM missile.

Uhhhhh what? The Imperium is all about standardisation, the Blueprints for a LRBT are the same on every forgeworld, because if they weren't then that is altering an STC, the holy word of the Omnissiah himself and thus, tech-heresy and someone's burning at the stake, they are called Standard Template Constructs for a reason.

Now one forgeworld might have access to minerals from a world that has access to a lost design of ore refinery that they don't know how to fix or build if it breaks because they don't have a STC for it, and thus their LRBT might be of slightly superior quality due to superior construction materials, but that's about it.

STC's merely are a 3D Printer. The materials you load into them are completely optional.

Yeeaaah the Imperial Warmachine must be a nightmare of logistics considering how many different marks and patterns of nearly every piece of Imperial wargear there is. And Leman Russ tanks can be made of a lot different materials.

In addition, it is probably an issue of quality versus quantity. One Forgeworld may make a ton of lower quality Leman Russ tanks meant to be filled with bodies and thrown at the nearest nasty, issued to the DKoK for example, while another may produce fewer, high quality Russes meant for better trained tank crews like the Tallarn.

I recall a statistic, though not from where, that had the Russ or Rhino's RHA values and they were... laughable. As in, if they are truly AV 11/12, an Abrams is about AV 14.

It's difficult to quantify much in the universe because most of the facts and figures are either contradictory or work via handwavium.

Yeah, old IA and CJ stuff provided equivalent millimeters of steel to various vehicles. Of course, the writers are not arms manufacturers or even soldiers (for the most part), so w're left with a few options.

One being that such real-world equivalent numbers simply aren't accurate or, two, that things in M40 have gotten so bad that just about every race in the galaxy has slid to a pre-WW2 tech-level of armor, and even the super-science of the Necrons is not guaranteed to utterly defeat such effortlessly.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also, the armor of Leman Russes aren't standardized, in fact, nothing in the Imperium really save potentially power armor and bolters is standardized. A Leman Russ from one forge world may have peerless armor and shrug off railgun shots, while another from a different planet may crumple to a single modern AGTM missile.

Uhhhhh what? The Imperium is all about standardisation, the Blueprints for a LRBT are the same on every forgeworld, because if they weren't then that is altering an STC, the holy word of the Omnissiah himself and thus, tech-heresy and someone's burning at the stake, they are called Standard Template Constructs for a reason.

Now one forgeworld might have access to minerals from a world that has access to a lost design of ore refinery that they don't know how to fix or build if it breaks because they don't have a STC for it, and thus their LRBT might be of slightly superior quality due to superior construction materials, but that's about it.

STC's merely are a 3D Printer. The materials you load into them are completely optional.

STCs are also the printouts containing the actual knowledge that goes into creating something.

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sherman would propably have AV 7 on front.

There's no way that adds up. That would give an autogun 4+ to equal or beat the armour (and therefore do some level of damage to the tank), the same chance as to wound a normal T3 human.

Whatever the AV of a Sherman is, it's not going to be massive, but the armour is three inches of steel. It should at least be shrugging off things like autoguns and Heavy Stubbers.

Max. armor of Sherman is 76mm/3". A modern 30mm autocannon can penetrate >100 mm RHA at 1000 m.

Add 38 000 years of metallurgy to mix, and I'd say that 40k autocannon (the one guardsmen haul around) is equivalent of best WW2 AT-guns.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Sherman would propably have AV 7 on front.

There's no way that adds up. That would give an autogun 4+ to equal or beat the armour (and therefore do some level of damage to the tank), the same chance as to wound a normal T3 human.

Whatever the AV of a Sherman is, it's not going to be massive, but the armour is three inches of steel. It should at least be shrugging off things like autoguns and Heavy Stubbers.

Max. armor of Sherman is 76mm/3". A modern 30mm autocannon can penetrate >100 mm RHA at 1000 m.

Add 38 000 years of metallurgy to mix, and I'd say that 40k autocannon (the one guardsmen haul around) is equivalent of best WW2 AT-guns.

There isn't 38,000 years of metallurgy, there's 28,000. After M30 the Imperium has more or less entirely stagnated in technological advancement.

The bolter is a .75 calibre, or 1.0 calibre in the case of astartes bolters (according to the FFG RPG series).

That puts a marine bolter shell in the order of 25mm - which means that a 'payload rifle' like the Neopup is about right (albeit with armour piercing rounds).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopup_PAW-20

Autoguns are pretty much assault rifles, as are lasguns. You can play tunes with 'it's equivalent to a 5.56, or a 7.62" or whatever, but given their narratively described effect on the human body, they're pretty close. Which makes Flak armour actually pretty decent - it as about a 1/3 chance of stopping an incoming round sufficiently that not only do you survive but are still combat effective (i.e. pick yourself up and keep shooting).

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Add 38 000 years of metallurgy to mix, and I'd say that 40k autocannon (the one guardsmen haul around) is equivalent of best WW2 AT-guns.

I said autogun (24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire), not autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2).

They are old technology, but Shermans should not be being ripped apart by light anti-personnel weapons like lasguns, shotguns or stubbers.

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Add 38 000 years of metallurgy to mix, and I'd say that 40k autocannon (the one guardsmen haul around) is equivalent of best WW2 AT-guns.

I said autogun (24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire), not autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2).

They are old technology, but Shermans should not be being ripped apart by light anti-personnel weapons like lasguns, shotguns or stubbers.

Ohh...

Pardon me. But Heavy stubber would push through, as well as Lasgun at full power (At least from the side armour).

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Add 38 000 years of metallurgy to mix, and I'd say that 40k autocannon (the one guardsmen haul around) is equivalent of best WW2 AT-guns.

I said autogun (24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire), not autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2).

They are old technology, but Shermans should not be being ripped apart by light anti-personnel weapons like lasguns, shotguns or stubbers.

You sure about that?

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Pardon me. But Heavy stubber would push through, as well as Lasgun at full power (At least from the side armour).

What basis do you have for suggesting that Heavy Stubbers are that powerful?

Based on Imperial armour datasheets and games with more granularity in their weapon stats (like Dark Heresy and Inquisitor), the Heavy stubber does not seem to be dramatically different from the GPMGs and HMGs we know today - and even the largest of those, such as the 14.5x114mm calibre the Soviets came up with during WWII, wouldn't be close to penetrating the side or even rear armour of the Sherman.

AP rounds would get close, if fired square on from short range, but given a Heavy Stubber can't even punch through flak armour, they need to ask for a refund on their ammunition if it's supposed to be armour piercing.

Quoting my self for a second so i dont have to rewrite

 Desubot wrote:
Well If a Stubber is something equivalent to a modern day rifle
and if i recall the bolter would be close to a grenade machine gun

Then the heavy bolter would be like a mini machine cannon like


at least thats my two cents

Its something that can wreck smaller vehicles (av10 ish) and decimate most troops so i think it makes sense edit: that grenade machine gun actually looks awful lot like a bolteR

Those are what i think bolters are basically

I generally assume that S 3 is about equivalent to a high-powered pistol or small rifle round (600-3,000 joules at the muzzle) , S 4 is a heavy rifle (3-15 KJ) and S 7 is a large autocannon (400-2,000 KJ). As you can see, that's roughly a x5 increase in kinetic energy per point of S.

A modern tank gun round has around 6-7 MJ of kinetic energy (at the muzzle), suggesting that it might only be about S 8 in WH40k terms. The penetrator design could possibly qualify it for Armourbane though, making it equivalent to a Vanquisher cannon.

That progression also implies that you might need as much as five times the armour thickness to qualify for +1 AV. So a modern tank might only be a couple of points of AV higher than a WWII tank despite having armour equivalent to ten times the thickness or more.

A Sherman's front armour was two to three inches thick and sloped, making it the equivalent of about four inches thick horizontal plate. The German KwK 40 had some difficulty penetrating it, depending on range and angle and that had about 4 MJ of energy (at point-blank range), so would be about S 8 (without armourbane). That suggests that the Sherman's front was no worse than AV 10 and no better than AV 13. AV 12 seems like a decent estimate.

Sherman side armour was 1.5 to 2 inches and almost vertical. Depending on the point at which you change between AV values, that could be 1 AV less than the front. Rear armour was anywhere from 1 to 2.5 inches, but generally a bit more vulnerable than the sides. Probably not enough for -1 AV though.

The normal Sherman's 75 gun managed a rather feeble 1,250 KJ of kinetic energy at point blank range, no better than a heavy autocannon (i.e. S 7). The upgunned versions like the 'Firefly' (17 pounder gun) and 'Easy Eight' had weapons very roughly equivalent to the KwK 40 and would probably be S 8.

Ferros wrote:
I recall a statistic, though not from where, that had the Russ or Rhino's RHA values and they were... laughable. As in, if they are truly AV 11/12, an Abrams is about AV 14.

It's difficult to quantify much in the universe because most of the facts and figures are either contradictory or work via handwavium.

Likewise they once stated a Land Raider's RHA equivalence to something akin to a Bradley AFV...hardly impressive. As stated before although it's fun to compare 40K weaponry to modern equivalents the writers of 40K have little grasp of what real weapons are capable of or even how they work.

I guess a bolter would be something like this:

On a much smaller caliber, yes.

 Bobthehero wrote:
On a much smaller caliber, yes.

A closer match in caliber would be something like the PAW-20. .75 caliber is about 20mm and regular boltgun doesn't need a tripod. The muzzle velocity could be made higher than you'd expect from even a 20mm grenade launcher if the intended firer is a space marine and can handle the increased recoil.

Remember that the Bolter round has a secondary propellant after it leaves the barrel. Most of the projectile velocity would come from that. I'd actually imagine MUZZLE velocity would be lower than the velocity the round impacts at. But otherwise, yes. It is a rocket propelled grenade launcher after all. Not sure if we actually have an equivalent of that yet.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Remember that the Bolter round has a secondary propellant after it leaves the barrel. Most of the projectile velocity would come from that. I'd actually imagine MUZZLE velocity would be lower than the velocity the round impacts at. But otherwise, yes. It is a rocket propelled grenade launcher after all. Not sure if we actually have an equivalent of that yet.

it should buut IIRC there are instances where untrained people that try and fire it break there wrists and stuff.