What happens if a marine chapter fell to heresy of the greater good??

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**Co'tor Shas**

He had his reservations before having the dawn blade.

I personally think that it's necrotyr, it's perfect for their short lives and all.

Edit: Also, Farsight hasn't abandoned the idea of the greater good, he simply disagrees with the etherials.

**EngulfedObject**

Fair enough about the pheremones not making sense but you're still ignoring the mind control theme the codex and supplement pretty much beats you on the head with. These are just about Farsight specifically but there's more in the actual codex including a passage heavily implying the Vespids leaders were converted through mind control helmets:

"After the incident on Arthas Moloch, Farsight returned to his established holdings on the far side of the Damocles Gulf. Farsight began to secretly become highly distrustful of the Ethereal Caste, coming to suspect that they may be controlling the Tau by more than simple charisma and wisdom, perhaps employing more sinister methods."

"At first he merely thought their leadership was flawed, that the other castes would be better off seeking harmony with each other without their oversight. But the more he though on the instances where obedience to the Etherals had been taken to illogical and foolish extremes. Worse, many of the actions taken under their guidance had seemed at the time both wise and necessary seemed now deplorable and wrong.[4b]"

"The inevitable conclusion that the Ethereals' control extended beyond simple logic and loyalty to something darker drove him to sickening panic. Heresies began filling Farsights mind, and not even he truly knew why. The truth he held could dissolve the Empire and drive the Tau back to the Mont'au, a fate far worse than the Ethereals' rule. Unable to tell anyone this truth but unwilling to pretend or forget, Farsight chose exile over obedience. [4b]"

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/O%27Shovah

"Farsight's forces had lost all of their Ethereal leaders in the battle, and O'Shovah suspected that some malevolent force had deliberately done this."

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Farsight_Expedition

^All from the Farsight supplement.

The Tau are cool and all but I don't see how you can ignore the mind control theme. It's one of their central themes.

In other case of Ethereals being killed off, the commander is immediately recalled or another Ethereal is hurriedly sent. Farsight was too far away for another Ethereal to be sent, which is why he was freed from their influence. The point is that ALL the ethereals on the expedition were killed off and that he was really far away, further than any Tau before him had been.

And about the Dawn Blade, yeah it could be Necrontyr, or maybe from some other kind of alien. We don't know for sure.

**Co'tor Shas**

Flat out mind control is still not definitively established, but mind control via propaganda and training is.

**EngulfedObject**

What about the Vespid mind control helmets? You know what I'm talking about. Don't make me go and dig up the exact quote and page... And how can you read the above and say it's just propaganda and training? That's just being stubborn. There's already been threads discussing how the Tau fit into the "grimdark" universe - mind control and mindless obedience is one of their central themes.

**Co'tor Shas**

That's a different matter entirely, I'm talking about on tau. There are lots of hints, but no solid proof. Nothing is explicitly stated.

And you know what, that's kind of the point of tau. There are hints of darker subtext, but nothing is in your face like the imperium.

**EngulfedObject**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's a different matter entirely, I'm talking about on tau. There are lots of hints, but no solid proof. Nothing is explicitly stated.

And you know what, that's kind of the point of tau. There are hints of darker subtext, but nothing is in your face like the imperium.

Well specifically for the Tau there's the entire Farsight Enclaves deal with the stuff above. You can't really imply it more heavily than that without outright stating it. There's always room for head-canon but officially there seems to be much less wiggle space.

**Co'tor Shas**

That's actually one of the reasons I didn't really like the FA book that much. I liked the subtle hints. The theories. They were interesting. Just saying "oh, they are alll mind controlled" is lazy and boring. The tau would closely guard all information, the only things you would get is tiny hints of something bigger.

IMO, tau got a lot less interesting in 6th. My personal tau fluff is still firmly rooted in 4th edition. Still grimdark, but in a more subtle way.

**EngulfedObject**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's actually one of the reasons I didn't really like the FA book that much. I liked the subtle hints. The theories. They were interesting. Just saying "oh, they are alll mind controlled" is lazy and boring. The tau would closely guard all information, the only things you would get is tiny hints of something bigger.

IMO, tau got a lot less interesting in 6th. My personal tau fluff is still firmly rooted in 4th edition. Still grimdark, but in a more subtle way.

I can agree with that, but it seems the current fluff is moving more towards the mind control direction. It's given us a renegade Farsight though, and he's a pretty cool character. I wouldn't mind if he actually took over the Tau Empire but that would never happen...

**Iron_Captain**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's actually one of the reasons I didn't really like the FA book that much. I liked the subtle hints. The theories. They were interesting. Just saying "oh, they are alll mind controlled" is lazy and boring. The tau would closely guard all information, the only things you would get is tiny hints of something bigger.

IMO, tau got a lot less interesting in 6th. My personal tau fluff is still firmly rooted in 4th edition. Still grimdark, but in a more subtle way.

I can agree with that, but it seems the current fluff is moving more towards the mind control direction. It's given us a renegade Farsight though, and he's a pretty cool character. I wouldn't mind if he actually took over the Tau Empire but that would never happen...

Never say never. Since GW blew up the entire Warhammer Fantasy world, I guess anything could happen.

**BaronIveagh**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Fair enough about the pheremones not making sense but you're still ignoring the mind control theme the codex and supplement pretty much beats you on the head with.

"Heresies began filling Farsights mind, and not even he truly knew why. " I think the writers very specifically chose this sentence. If the codex is heavy handed with implications of tau mind control, this hits you in the face with a sledgehammer as to what's really happening. It's not so much that the Tau practice mind control (they might, but it seems unlikely, there are much easier ways to manipulate a population) but that Tzeench most definitely does.

To call this an almost stereotypical case of a leader falling to the ruinous powers is an understatement. If he was human, he'd be sprouting tentacles by now.

In Damocles Shadowsun implies she suspects that the Ethereals are hiding something about Farsight. Even the story where mind control elements are brought up, even the narrator admits that it's not clear if mind control was going on or not.

**epronovost**

Little hypothesis about Farsight and the Ethereal. What if all those «hints» about Ethereal mind control are actualy hints of Farsight own paranoia and delusion. What if they were indeed good people with noble intentions, but a corruptible and ambitious military leader can be easily swayed. I like it better. It's a bit reminescent of Horus and even more Grimdark. It's a kick in the nuts of the very popular nolbe rebel thrope used by very single science fiction setting.

**Taffy17**

A space marine would never let anyone, and definitely not a xenos, mess with their equipment even if it would make them better.

So no stealth marines or pulse bolters I don't think.

**Desubot**

Taffy17 wrote:
A space marine would never let anyone, and definitely not a xenos, mess with their equipment even if it would make them better.

So no stealth marines or pulse bolters I don't think.

At least AD mech wise i hear they have no issue going through and reverse engineering xeno tech. though from what i recall it usually involves things exploding.

Im sure there was a instance or two where they use xeno tech with no issue. and at that they defiantly have no issues collecting them (as a trophy)

Edit and at that 30k wise, the alpha legion definitely uses xeno tech in there venom spheres which are IIRC dark eldar poison splinters.

**Pandiki**

About the question how to get new recruits, they could also make usage of the Alpha Legions tactic. Infiltrating a recruiting world of a loyal SM chapter and manipulate the subconscious of the inhabitants. After the loyal SM transform the aspirants to Space Marines, they attack and activate the subconscious implemented teachings by psy power so the aspirants attack their own brothers. The surviving SM will be taken into the Alpha Legions army (with this way the Alpha Legion destroyed the chapter of the Emperor's Swords).

**carldooley**

I'm rather surprised that no one mentioned the Ultramarines. From everything I've read, Ultramar sounds much better than modern day Earth, and they don't seem to have any trouble recruiting from their defended worlds.

**EmpNortonII**

carldooley wrote:
I'm rather surprised that no one mentioned the Ultramarines. From everything I've read, Ultramar sounds much better than modern day Earth, and they don't seem to have any trouble recruiting from their defended worlds.

A lot of Imperial players don't think. They just want to hate on everything that isn't Imperial.

**millest**

this is from the FB thread on this and most of this has probably covered but couldn't resist commenting

ok so if we are going to place the theoretical then lets look at it properly

1) would the marines eventually start using like 4 pulse rifles strapped together or just use rail rifles in rapid fire mode?
they would continue to use their exsisting weapons as both the chapter and the tau would be able to reproduce them, eventually if they were thought to be impractical they would end up using tau weapons that were developed specifically for their size and methods - bolter sized carbines and the like

2) would a marine be able to fly a crisis or riptide suit? and if so, how well would he be able to use it? (for that matter, how fast could a marine learn the Tau language enough to use their equipment?)
marines learn through hypno doctrine so would learn pretty quick, the question arises would the suits be big enough for the marine, new variants would be the more likely out come. they would be able to use them extremely well, marines are bred to fight in armour, thing of power armour, termie armour, centurion arnour, drednought armour, dredknight armour - see a pattern here

3) would he fit inside a devilfish transport?
yes, remember the models aren't to scale, there are plenty of examples of marines in rhinos (remember these were human colonists vehicles in the depths of time before they became astartes transports), chimeras and other human scale vehicles so fitting them inside a tau/human scale vehicle isn't a stretch just wouldn't get 10 in, though again as the models aren't true scale it could be that their holds are big enough to hold 10 of them - we don't really have an accurate scale reference.

4) having stealth suit marines?
again with the same idea as crisis suits, possible eventually but would require working to either get larger suits or combine with the marine armour, not impossible and most certainly something they would look at for once they have proved their loyalty

5) could the Tau start to have genetically modified fire warriors?
no as the marine gene seed is designed for the human genome, so unlikey and I doubt any chapter, loyal to imperium or tau would sacrifice their geneseed. not to mention the Fire warriors and Tau ethereals are really against polluting their genetic make up so adding something as artificial as genenseed would be a big no no

6) increase their use of chainsaws?
the tau or marines? if marines probably not, remember the chainsword is most cases a weapon of last resort for shock and awe, guns are preferred. in tau then again probably not, they have no need, the marines could do that for them, theres a saying about having a dog and barking for yourself

7) trade the marines to the kroot?
not a chance, why would you turn potentially the greatest assault force in your entire army in to Kroot Kibble? they would be indoctrinated and expanded, maybe eventually to work with the kroot but that's it.

8) just use up the marines as soon as possible so as to be rid of them or try to keep them around for more studies?
as with question 7, keep em, there will be enough dead marines or captured marines from other conflicts so use them, expand them and make them an integral part so you don't sacrifice too many tau

**VictorVonTzeentch**

carldooley wrote:
I'm rather surprised that no one mentioned the Ultramarines. From everything I've read, Ultramar sounds much better than modern day Earth, and they don't seem to have any trouble recruiting from their defended worlds.

Ultramar was mentioned on the first page. Specifically how recruitment there is done on an all voluntary basis, and how its available to anyone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

millest wrote:
(for that matter, how fast could a marine learn the Tau language enough to use their equipment?)

They'd be able to learn it rather quickly if they had a Tau corpse on hand. Eat a Tau, learn a language.

Did it in a Deathwatch Campaign so I could listen in on Tau Coms as a Sniper.

**Co'tor Shas**

There seems to be a lack of consensus on that. Apparently they actually only learn genetic information, but I have heard it both ways.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Considering its GW, it does both. They have a knack for saying it does something, but has a fancy name that means it wouldn't do that.

The big thing is that is says they are able to learn by eating, and as super soldiers only being able to know the biological make up of something, wouldn't help them much.

**gealgain**

I think a good example of something like this happening was the "Dornian heresy" fanfic. While it's not canon at all, a independent and self sufficient force could develop their own ideology that is comparable with the tau and less dependent on the imperium. Trade and friendly relations could thrive there.

Obviously the armor and guns would improve for the space marines. The Tau would benefit by learning about genetic modification beyond the accelerated Darwinism they have now.
The space marines would know they were committing heresy and would be integrating with the Tau for protection of numbers from the inquisition and other space marine chapters. the Tau, as previously noted would be happy to get such experienced shock troopers.

**A Town Called Malus**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
He had his reservations before having the dawn blade.

I personally think that it's necrotyr, it's perfect for their short lives and all.

Edit: Also, Farsight hasn't abandoned the idea of the greater good, he simply disagrees with the etherials.

Plus if you compare the shape of the Dawnblade to Necron swords/warscythes...

**Co'tor Shas**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
He had his reservations before having the dawn blade.

I personally think that it's necrotyr, it's perfect for their short lives and all.

Edit: Also, Farsight hasn't abandoned the idea of the greater good, he simply disagrees with the etherials.

Plus if you compare the shape of the Dawnblade to Necron swords/warscythes...

Exactly. It does not seem like a demon sword. he visual design matches a lot of necron stuff. This could be a coincidence, or this could be the original idea for it. Ii also may have been originally a tau invention, and was designed to look sleek, not like the swords the imperium or chaos use.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
There seems to be a lack of consensus on that. Apparently they actually only learn genetic information, but I have heard it both ways.

According to the consistent versions of the fluff, it transfers memories and experiences. But it wouldn't transfer contextual information like a language. A few words might be distinguishable at best if they could be tied to actions or things. Otherwise, the Space Marine is just hearing words without the context to understand them.

Using it to spy on enemy comms is a clever RPG idea, but probably not an accurate representation of how the omophagea would actually work.

**RiTides**

General thread note - please remember that rule #1 on Dakka is "be polite" - thanks!

**BaronIveagh**

Yes, the design for the dawnblade was done some time ago, when they were pitching the idea that he had been corrupted by Necron technology. This was brought up on an interview in WD.

**Harriticus**

Greater Good appeals to the downtrodden of Imperial society. Your humble factory worker, brutalized conscript, or a lowly Hive citizen. Astartes are among the most privileged class of the Imperium, Really only the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition enjoy more privilege. they wouldn't seek anything that the Greater Good could provide.

**EmpNortonII**

Harriticus wrote:
Greater Good appeals to the downtrodden of Imperial society. Your humble factory worker, brutalized conscript, or a lowly Hive citizen. Astartes are among the most privileged class of the Imperium, Really only the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition enjoy more privilege. they wouldn't seek anything that the Greater Good could provide.

I could see a Salamander successor leaving the Imperium after seeing a world Exterminatused after they successfully defended it because some douchey Inquisitor wasn't sure it was safe.

The Tau don't indiscriminately butcher enemy civilians. The Imperium indiscriminately kills its own civilians.

**LordBlades**

EmpNortonII wrote:
Harriticus wrote:
Greater Good appeals to the downtrodden of Imperial society. Your humble factory worker, brutalized conscript, or a lowly Hive citizen. Astartes are among the most privileged class of the Imperium, Really only the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition enjoy more privilege. they wouldn't seek anything that the Greater Good could provide.

I could see a Salamander successor leaving the Imperium after seeing a world Exterminatused after they successfully defended it because some douchey Inquisitor wasn't sure it was safe.

The Tau don't indiscriminately butcher enemy civilians. The Imperium indiscriminately kills its own civilians.

Also, it's worth remembering the Space Wolves got involved in a lengthy conflict with the Inquisition and Grey Knights for protecting the people of Armageddon. A lesser chapter, that had neither the resources nor the strength of a First Foundimg non-Codex chapter would have likely bern bullied into submission or declared traitors. I can totally see such guys choosing Tau over Chaos.

**Desubot**

A non first founding tiny renegade (but not chaos) space marine chapter if all the stars alined and tzeench wasn't being a total gak could possibly seek to work with the Tau if they where in some sort of desperate situation like a nid invasion

Its HIGHLY unlikely any other way since they are basically indoctrinated to be full on xenophobes. perhaps a planetary recruitment type chapter. since maybe the human folkes had come in contact with the tau before so know them not to be total gaks.