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 Desubot wrote:
A non first founding tiny renegade (but not chaos) space marine chapter if all the stars alined and tzeench wasn't being a total gak could possibly seek to work with the Tau if they where in some sort of desperate situation like a nid invasion

Its HIGHLY unlikely any other way since they are basically indoctrinated to be full on xenophobes. perhaps a planetary recruitment type chapter. since maybe the human folkes had come in contact with the tau before so know them not to be total gaks.

They're also indoctrinated to oppose Chaos and fall to it all the time.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
A non first founding tiny renegade (but not chaos) space marine chapter if all the stars alined and tzeench wasn't being a total gak could possibly seek to work with the Tau if they where in some sort of desperate situation like a nid invasion

Its HIGHLY unlikely any other way since they are basically indoctrinated to be full on xenophobes. perhaps a planetary recruitment type chapter. since maybe the human folkes had come in contact with the tau before so know them not to be total gaks.

They're also indoctrinated to oppose Chaos and fall to it all the time.

Well the whispers directly in there brain vs an annoying little blue dude squawking in some unknown language...

A lot fall just because they do there jerb. kill the heretic! Cut his throat! Kill the Xeno! Bash him in! Blood for the BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KORN FLAKES!

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
A non first founding tiny renegade (but not chaos) space marine chapter if all the stars alined and tzeench wasn't being a total gak could possibly seek to work with the Tau if they where in some sort of desperate situation like a nid invasion

Its HIGHLY unlikely any other way since they are basically indoctrinated to be full on xenophobes. perhaps a planetary recruitment type chapter. since maybe the human folkes had come in contact with the tau before so know them not to be total gaks.

They're also indoctrinated to oppose Chaos and fall to it all the time.

This is a pretty common myth and usually vastly overstated. 50ish Chapters in 10,000 years isn't really "all the time".

The failure rate for Space Marine Chapters since the Codex Astartes was implemented is like 2%. And Chaos can offer the Space Marines things they want. Power, martial achievement, glory, etc. The Tau don't really have anything Space Marines want. Equality, job satisfaction, happiness, etc. It's all meaningless to a Space Marine. The problem with Space Marines falling to the Greater Good is not that Space Marines are infallible. It's that the Tau have very little to entice them with that they don't already have.

 Vespid wrote:
And if the Tau can manage to reverse engineer a geneseed they can make their own space marines out of Gue'vesa and brainwash them, indoctrinate and train them as usual.

Creating/reverse engineering a geneseed is incredibly difficult. I am unsure tau are capable of doing so.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Greater Good appeals to the downtrodden of Imperial society. Your humble factory worker, brutalized conscript, or a lowly Hive citizen. Astartes are among the most privileged class of the Imperium, Really only the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition enjoy more privilege. they wouldn't seek anything that the Greater Good could provide.

I could see a Salamander successor leaving the Imperium after seeing a world Exterminatused after they successfully defended it because some douchey Inquisitor wasn't sure it was safe.

The Tau don't indiscriminately butcher enemy civilians. The Imperium indiscriminately kills its own civilians.

But how would a Space Marine know that? They can't simply read Codex: Tau Empire, all they know about the Tau is what the Imperial propaganda says, which is basically: "All xenos are evil bloodthirsty monsters that want to subjugate and enslave mankind". Even when they appear nice at first, they just want you to lower your guard so that they can subjugate you. Xenos must be killed on sight if mankind wants to survive. They will have grown up with hearing this since earliest childhood, not to mention that they were heavily indoctrinated as part of their Space Marine training. The only time at which a Space Marine will not shoot a Tau on sight is when they need their help to defeat an even more dangerous foe. The chance that a Space Marine would actually listen to what a Tau says is ridculously small.
Also, the Salamanders would actually be one of the least likely chapters to defect to xenos. The Salamanders fight for the good of mankind. This requires mankind be free from any xenos overlords. The thought of mankind being subject to some alien would be unbearable for the Salamanders. The only possibility that they might join the Tau Empire is if the Tau gave up their dominant position to the Humans, thus in effect creating a new Human empire.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Greater Good appeals to the downtrodden of Imperial society. Your humble factory worker, brutalized conscript, or a lowly Hive citizen. Astartes are among the most privileged class of the Imperium, Really only the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition enjoy more privilege. they wouldn't seek anything that the Greater Good could provide.

I could see a Salamander successor leaving the Imperium after seeing a world Exterminatused after they successfully defended it because some douchey Inquisitor wasn't sure it was safe.

The Tau don't indiscriminately butcher enemy civilians. The Imperium indiscriminately kills its own civilians.

But how would a Space Marine know that? They can't simply read Codex: Tau Empire, all they know about the Tau is what the Imperial propaganda says, which is basically: "All xenos are evil bloodthirsty monsters that want to subjugate and enslave mankind". Even when they appear nice at first, they just want you to lower your guard so that they can subjugate you. Xenos must be killed on sight if mankind wants to survive. They will have grown up with hearing this since earliest childhood, not to mention that they were heavily indoctrinated as part of their Space Marine training. The only time at which a Space Marine will not shoot a Tau on sight is when they need their help to defeat an even more dangerous foe. The chance that a Space Marine would actually listen to what a Tau says is ridculously small.
Also, the Salamanders would actually be one of the least likely chapters to defect to xenos. The Salamanders fight for the good of mankind. This requires mankind be free from any xenos overlords. The thought of mankind being subject to some alien would be unbearable for the Salamanders. The only possibility that they might join the Tau Empire is if the Tau gave up their dominant position to the Humans, thus in effect creating a new Human empire.

If Uriel fething Ventris can figure out that Tau don't approve of killing civilians- even enemy ones- other Space Marines can, too.

All it takes is for a Salamander-like Chapter to prefer Tau is to figure out that the Tau treat humans better than the High Lords do.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


If Uriel fething Ventris can figure out that Tau don't approve of killing civilians- even enemy ones- other Space Marines can, too.

All it takes is for a Salamander-like Chapter to prefer Tau is to figure out that the Tau treat humans better than the High Lords do.

And the same chapter knows that the second they go rogue the imperial hammer will instantly face them and the tau. And they sure as hell know if the imperium got there heads out of there caves and just dealt with the tau the entire sector will be deleted instantly. so why the hell would they take a suicide path like that.

The "second" is a bit of an exaggeration. Even the Damocles Crusade response took almost a century to organize in the fluff.

I'm not so sure this is possible, as unique an idea as it is. My reasoning is this.
In the 40k universe, the seductions of chaos are of the soul, the spirit, unspoken desires and goals otherwise unattainable. It doesn't really just grab you by the shoulders and shake you until you give in as much as take you by the shoulder, and slowly convert you to its way of thinking through half-truths, selective lies, and actions that reveal to one's self the things they would otherwise deny. (Doing the unthinkable to win, then realizing you did so, and the world didn't end for it ect).
Its a more pervasive thing, and more spiritual thing. Its harder to resist the influence of chaos when your neighbor tells you the aches and pains of the factory can be eased just by praying to this idol once a day with your fellow workers.

The seductions of the greater good always struck me as the geo(Galactic?)-political ideology of an alien species. Its a system of government and social standing, its a caste system. Its very up front about what it wants, and what it expects. (unless you believe the ethereal conspiracy theories). While there may be subliminal messaging involved with bringing people to its way of thinking, thats something every culture in 40k uses.
The greater good's conversion of human planets (without force) is largely accomplished through treaties with far too open minded imperial elites, who are promised wealth and advantage over their peers, in return for cooperation. Is it devious? Sure. Is it tangible, yes. Is it spiritual? No.

40k's concept of spirituality, the strength of faith (in good or evil, either way) being extremely important is a central theme of the universe. Without it, you are placed within the realm of the "science is magic" trope.

Now, Space Marines, they have no need for money. The chapter and emperor provide what they need. They are indoctrinated, and bombarded constantly that they must revile the alien, and hate the alien. They have no desire to use Tau technology, other than to take it apart, and know how to destroy it better. They objectively have shielded themselves from the "logical path" of the greater good, via Xenophobia, and Imperial Dogma, thousands of years of it. They also have little to no patience for politics, outside of chapter standing internally, and public face externally.
Sure, the Tau up front present a public face of fair treatment of humans, there are examples throughout cannon of Tau rendering mass sterilizations, repopulations, using them as cannon fodder, and the like upon conquered or converted Imperial worlds. It means, they are just likely better at covering their footsteps.

Given that Space Marine Chapters very, very rarely fall to Chaos (50something in 10,000 years or so was the number), which is the #1 threat to the imperium, and a more pervasive, insidious threat due to its nature.., I can't really say I could see it happening.

 warboss wrote:
The "second" is a bit of an exaggeration. Even the Damocles Crusade response took almost a century to organize in the fluff.

ok well thats true. but ya know unless you are some sort of super alpha legion master spy and completely cripple the imperims logistics. its only inevitable that full attention will go to the tau area if they start becoming a credible threat.

If wind got out of a legion sized tau enhanced space marine army, the imperium would probably get there gak together. at least all the ordo xeno fools.

Edit: IIRC the mass sterilization theories are all off FFG stuff which isnt really cannon.

Cannon fodder im sure is a thing though.

I thought the sterilization thing was DoW, not FFG?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I thought the sterilization thing was DoW, not FFG?

Dow is also not really cannon.

Especially since that end wasn't even the canon ending.

And quickly the entire chapter is filled with tau-loving filth. This is Heresy! Wipe out the imbecile! Exterminatus the entire region!

-Inquisitor Bullpoop

 Desubot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I thought the sterilization thing was DoW, not FFG?

Dow is also not really cannon.

Well yes, I am fairly certain that Dawn of War is not an artillery piece.

 Desubot wrote:

And the same chapter knows that the second they go rogue the imperial hammer will instantly face them and the tau. And they sure as hell know if the imperium got there heads out of there caves and just dealt with the tau the entire sector will be deleted instantly. so why the hell would they take a suicide path like that.

Because

A) 'instantly' is highly subjective when talking about the Imperium.

B) The issue of the fact that there's only one warp route to Tau space that's bottle up with the equivalent of an Imperial segmentum fortress, and a whole Crusade came to a screeching halt when it hit it makes it unlikely the Imperium could actually pull it off. Particularly since, based on the current fluff for the more recent Damocles gulf actions, they've pushed the Imperium back to the coreward side of the Gulf again, despite the best efforts of the Imperial fleet, the White Scars, the Ultramarines, the Raven Guard, and several lesser chapters, a titan legion, and Knight house Tyrren (Sp?). .

I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

Or just plain greed and thirst for material power like with the Badab war. They have the same motivations as normal humans outside of maybe sexual ones, some higher in strength than humans and others lower.

 warboss wrote:
The "second" is a bit of an exaggeration. Even the Damocles Crusade response took almost a century to organize in the fluff.

That's because it only affected frontier worlds and was the first time it happened. A First Founding chapter going over to the Tau would merit a much swifter and deadlier response. Not that a chapter with such an illustrious history would ever convert to the Greater Good...

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

The entire Night Lords legion went renegade without Chaotic influence, remember? Didn't the Soul Drinkers also go renegade?

Any SM Chapter that has fought the Tau know them to be honorable foes. Any SM Chapter that knows this and is declared Excommunicate Tratoris could (and likely would, given their other options) find safe haven with the Tau. Since this can happen because any random Inquisitor gets pissed off (even if they're crazy/corrupted by Chaos) there's plenty of opportunity for Space Marines to see the light of the Greater Good.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

The entire Night Lords legion went renegade without Chaotic influence, remember? Didn't the Soul Drinkers also go renegade?

Any SM Chapter that has fought the Tau know them to be honorable foes. Any SM Chapter that knows this and is declared Excommunicate Tratoris could (and likely would, given their other options) find safe haven with the Tau. Since this can happen because any random Inquisitor gets pissed off (even if they're crazy/corrupted by Chaos) there's plenty of opportunity for Space Marines to see the light of the Greater Good.

Uh, the Night Lords are infested with Chaos taint, not to mention their legion was wavering on renegade from the start thanks to them not being indoctrinated in the least.

Plus Legions lacked the mindscrubbingly thorough brainwashing of how Astartes are currently made after the Codex Astartes was established.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

No. References:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Renegade_Chapter
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Astral_Claws
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Soul_Drinkers
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Venom_Thorns

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The failure rate for Space Marine Chapters since the Codex Astartes was implemented is like 2%.

At least 2%. Think of all chapters that were never mentioned in the fluff. How many of those have gone traitor? We do not know.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And Chaos can offer the Space Marines things they want. Power, martial achievement, glory, etc. The Tau don't really have anything Space Marines want.

Survival. The space marines want survival over loyalty.
That, and big guns.

Fine, SM are incorruptible outside of chaos and unique cases.

Just like SoB had Sabathiel and her order and who knows how many others.

SM get a lot more screentime mind you, of the good and the bad.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

That's because it only affected frontier worlds and was the first time it happened. A First Founding chapter going over to the Tau would merit a much swifter and deadlier response. Not that a chapter with such an illustrious history would ever convert to the Greater Good...

This is where the issue wit the Salamanders raises it's head: their indoctrination is not the same. In Helsreach Grimaldus sort of underlines it when the Salamanders refuse to abandon the civilians in order to press the attack against the orks. The Black Templars exist to protect the Imperium. The Salamanders exist to protect people. At once, the difference is both subtle, and very large. Further, a lot of the Greater Good mirrors Vulkan's own teachings. Interestingly, the Tau mindset also closely mirrors Ultramarine philosophy on civilian government. (Yes, since they do rule Ultramar, not the Imperium [Another subtle, but important, issue that people try very hard to ignore on occasion]) though it's unlikely the smurfs would join the tau in any situation short of the death of the Emperor.


And, bluntly, the Imperium does NOTHING quickly. Part of the problem is simply the lack of space vessels. Even heavily armed sectors can field maybe 70 warships. They take decades, if not centuries, to build.

It takes the tau four years to produce the equivalent of an Emperor class battleship.

The Imperial fleet has exactly one means of access to the Tau empire.

This means that attrition works against the Imperium here. Which probably means that the various Solar Admirals are stumped as to what to do.

However, both sides are currently distracted by Tyranids, so...

While some marines might turn renegade or fall to chaos, the question really becomes why they would turn renegade and then decide to join Tau.

Space Marines were indoctinated to serve humanity, to defend the IoM. How are they going to become disillusioned with the IoM but still want to serve humanity. Even if they did not like the IoM, surely they must also know that they are probably best served by sticking with the IoM. Turning traitor(not chaos, but serving the greater good would still be traitor) would mean 2 inescapeable things.

First it would cause strife for the IoM, more of the IoM finite resources would have to be devoted to pursuing them and battling them; this doesn't serve humanity or the greater good. War and wasted resources serves no one.

Secondly they would run out of new war materials and maintenance parts. While they might be able to shed their bolters for pulse rifles rather easily, their power armor is linked to their nerve bundles by a series of implants. Finding a way to make their implants compatable with Tau technology would be tough, certainly beyond them, possibly beyond the Tau. With weapons that were not designed for them, they might be less effective, certainly they would require a lot of trial and error/+training to design and learn to use Tau technology. All that time and effort they certainly aren't able to serve humanity, or even the greater good as the warriors they are.
Now you might say they could just scavenge spare parts like other Traitor or Renegade Marines do. 2 things. First the reason that people are saying the IoM could not pursue them, there isnt much IoM presense in tau space, hence few spare parts. Second other traitor/renegade marines scavenge their parts by attacking loyalist marines and supplies. Serving the greater good would not be best to nessesitate constant direct conflict with the IoM.


So even a disillusioned SM chapter would probably not turn traitor and join the Tau. It would end up hurting their aims more than it would help them.

 Exergy wrote:
While some marines might turn renegade or fall to chaos, the question really becomes why they would turn renegade and then decide to join Tau.

Space Marines were indoctinated to serve humanity, to defend the IoM. How are they going to become disillusioned with the IoM but still want to serve humanity. Even if they did not like the IoM, surely they must also know that they are probably best served by sticking with the IoM. Turning traitor(not chaos, but serving the greater good would still be traitor) would mean 2 inescapeable things.

First it would cause strife for the IoM, more of the IoM finite resources would have to be devoted to pursuing them and battling them; this doesn't serve humanity or the greater good. War and wasted resources serves no one.

Secondly they would run out of new war materials and maintenance parts. While they might be able to shed their bolters for pulse rifles rather easily, their power armor is linked to their nerve bundles by a series of implants. Finding a way to make their implants compatable with Tau technology would be tough, certainly beyond them, possibly beyond the Tau. With weapons that were not designed for them, they might be less effective, certainly they would require a lot of trial and error/+training to design and learn to use Tau technology. All that time and effort they certainly aren't able to serve humanity, or even the greater good as the warriors they are.
Now you might say they could just scavenge spare parts like other Traitor or Renegade Marines do. 2 things. First the reason that people are saying the IoM could not pursue them, there isnt much IoM presense in tau space, hence few spare parts. Second other traitor/renegade marines scavenge their parts by attacking loyalist marines and supplies. Serving the greater good would not be best to nessesitate constant direct conflict with the IoM.


So even a disillusioned SM chapter would probably not turn traitor and join the Tau. It would end up hurting their aims more than it would help them.

They'd replace their gear the same way Carcharodons replace their gear- stealing it from corpses and Imperial supply ships as "tithes." After all, the Tau fights the Imperium often enough, and Space Marines get drawn in often enough.

There're plenty of Gue'vesa to serve in the Tau Empire. They're humans- admittedly, humans that are already better-protected than the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's citizens, but humans all the same.

... and if the SM Chapter in question decides the gov't of the Imperium is evil, then yes, direct conflict with them DOES serve the greater good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

The entire Night Lords legion went renegade without Chaotic influence, remember? Didn't the Soul Drinkers also go renegade?

Any SM Chapter that has fought the Tau know them to be honorable foes. Any SM Chapter that knows this and is declared Excommunicate Tratoris could (and likely would, given their other options) find safe haven with the Tau. Since this can happen because any random Inquisitor gets pissed off (even if they're crazy/corrupted by Chaos) there's plenty of opportunity for Space Marines to see the light of the Greater Good.

Uh, the Night Lords are infested with Chaos taint, not to mention their legion was wavering on renegade from the start thanks to them not being indoctrinated in the least.

Plus Legions lacked the mindscrubbingly thorough brainwashing of how Astartes are currently made after the Codex Astartes was established.

1) At the time the Night Lords blew up Nostramo? No, I've had people argue repeatedly that there wasn't Chaotic influence involved there. Pretty sure they're right.

2) No response for Soul Drinkers?

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

The entire Night Lords legion went renegade without Chaotic influence, remember? Didn't the Soul Drinkers also go renegade?

Any SM Chapter that has fought the Tau know them to be honorable foes. Any SM Chapter that knows this and is declared Excommunicate Tratoris could (and likely would, given their other options) find safe haven with the Tau. Since this can happen because any random Inquisitor gets pissed off (even if they're crazy/corrupted by Chaos) there's plenty of opportunity for Space Marines to see the light of the Greater Good.

Uh, the Night Lords are infested with Chaos taint, not to mention their legion was wavering on renegade from the start thanks to them not being indoctrinated in the least.

Plus Legions lacked the mindscrubbingly thorough brainwashing of how Astartes are currently made after the Codex Astartes was established.

1) At the time the Night Lords blew up Nostramo? No, I've had people argue repeatedly that there wasn't Chaotic influence involved there. Pretty sure they're right.

2) No response for Soul Drinkers?

As has been mentioned, the Night Lords were almost renegades from the start. They did not have the same high level of indoctrination and moral character as some of the other Legions had. Also, it could easily be argued that Curze's visions etc. were caused by Chaos.
The Soul Drinkers never turned renegade, they were simply kicked out by the Imperium. They still hate Chaos and Xenos as much as they did before.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Tau Astartes won't happen. Space Marines are incredibly reliable in their loyalty. It takes supernatural forces like Chaos to turn them.

The entire Night Lords legion went renegade without Chaotic influence, remember? Didn't the Soul Drinkers also go renegade?

Any SM Chapter that has fought the Tau know them to be honorable foes. Any SM Chapter that knows this and is declared Excommunicate Tratoris could (and likely would, given their other options) find safe haven with the Tau. Since this can happen because any random Inquisitor gets pissed off (even if they're crazy/corrupted by Chaos) there's plenty of opportunity for Space Marines to see the light of the Greater Good.

Uh, the Night Lords are infested with Chaos taint, not to mention their legion was wavering on renegade from the start thanks to them not being indoctrinated in the least.

Plus Legions lacked the mindscrubbingly thorough brainwashing of how Astartes are currently made after the Codex Astartes was established.

1) At the time the Night Lords blew up Nostramo? No, I've had people argue repeatedly that there wasn't Chaotic influence involved there. Pretty sure they're right.

2) No response for Soul Drinkers?

As has been mentioned, the Night Lords were almost renegades from the start. They did not have the same high level of indoctrination and moral character as some of the other Legions had. Also, it could easily be argued that Curze's visions etc. were caused by Chaos.
The Soul Drinkers never turned renegade, they were simply kicked out by the Imperium. They still hate Chaos and Xenos as much as they did before.

If Space Marines can be created as renegades from the start, I'm not sure that helps your point. A lot can happen in 10,000 years...

I want to ignore the concept of "Why" and focus on the "What".
I am thinking of better equipped Armour, weaponry and vehicles. Think hover rhinos, Bolters with plasma technologies, the stealth capabilities of the tau, combined with the Asartes would lead for a Uber Raven guard force.
The Jump/Jet packs of the Crisis suits combined with assault troops for a streamlined look and more powerful boost.
The Quasi AI of the Tau working alongside the tech marines? Think Devastators with Rail guns, Landraiders with Ion cannons.
this type of stuff is (in my opinion) way more fascinating than debating whether it would be possible or not. It's a fantasy universe where you can make up your own interpretation of the Fluff and Cannon. Or Ignore it completely like the Dornian Heresy and others do.

And thats why they dont create space marines willy nilly

All the genetic testing and trials.. ya know to catch all that.

Legions where made by the Big E and im not actually sure the technical aspects was ever touched on in fluff.

 Edreynaline wrote:
It's a fantasy universe where you can make up your own interpretation of the Fluff and Cannon. Or Ignore it completely like the Dornian Heresy and others do.

Well its a discussion. that's why a lot of people are counting your fantasy views with our own