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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 ImAGeek wrote:
 Mantle wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.


It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)
No, it would be a 6 followed by another 6 followed by a 3+ for it to take out a Baneblade.

I think it's a bit early to get stressed about the D weapon WG because we don't know what the circumstances are yet. They could easily make it so the chance of getting a D off is so low and the models are so expensive that it is not competitively viable to take them.

They could make it so you need to pass low probability a test to get the D and lots of points in which case they price themselves out of being viable, or they could make it they have to combine fire to get the D so they aren't actually firing many D shots and combined with a high enough point value could make them too much of a liability in a competitive environment.

As much as I don't trust GW, at this point we just don't know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 14:15:29


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




UK

 DarkLink wrote:
You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.


So a knight is worth the same as a baneblade?

A Wraithknight is worth 240 with weapons because that it what the current codex says. Losing all weapons to gain GMC status is what i was saying and the weapons be a pointed upgrade

Guardsman: "Sir, we appear to have brought knives to a gunfight"

BANG!!!

Commissar: "Anymore questions?" 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 Mantle wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.


It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)
No, it would be a 6 followed by another 6 followed by a 3+ for it to take out a Baneblade.

I think it's a bit early to get stressed about the D weapon WG because we don't know what the circumstances are yet. They could easily make it so the chance of getting a D off is so low and the models are so expensive that it is not competitively viable to take them.

They could make it so you need to pass low probability a test to get the D and lots of points in which case they price themselves out of being viable, or they could make it they have to combine fire to get the D so they aren't actually firing many D shots and combined with a high enough point value could make them too much of a liability in a competitive environment.

As much as I don't trust GW, at this point we just don't know.


Ah okay, it's not quite as bad as I thought (if it is just strD on a 6). And yeah you're right we don't know yet, I just think expecting anything too reasonable might be setting yourself up for dissapointment at this point. We'll see I guess. There's still plenty of other things we do know about to moan about
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener



Ivanhoe,MN

 ImAGeek wrote:
BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.


Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.


I don't know, that has been the way in 40k since the beginning. Different people have different goals they want to accomplish in the game. Honestly, if someone is playing a casual list vs. a top tier tourney style list does it really matter if it is Eldar, Draigostar, Ad Lance or what not?

It's all about understanding who you are playing against and the situation you are playing in and i think it has less to do with any particular codex and more to do with being aware of the power level and skill level of your opponent. I know if i play a random person at a store and they look like they are putting their entire collection on the table and it's a hodge podge list, shame on me for bringing out my best tourney list.

I know that is not the answer that people really want to hear and they want to be able to play whatever list they want to and win. I get that, i've been there. As a Tyranid player it has been very hard to accept that 2/3rds of those beautiful models I have suck on the table. The social contract is immensely important to this game.

If I go to a tourney, i expect to go up against the cheesiet and best lists possible and if i bring a fluffy/casual list, I know that it's going to be tough sledding for me. I still might do it because maybe i feel like i have a great theme to my army and i want to show it off, or maybe i don't mind losing a game or two to get down to the casual brackets for some more laid back 40k.

In summation, I am not letting GW off the hook for horrible balance issues, but i think by being a respectful person the average player can mitigate alot of those balance issues.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





While you get to the car to bring the triptide list don't forget the adult beverages! What you don't seem to get is that codex eldar in its new form is gonna tramp most lists so in your super competitive environment sooner or later everyone will switch to eldar and dring adult beverages.


Well, at least we'd see something different than the Decurion lists that are all over the place.
   
Made in se
Numberless Necron Warrior




The more this game changes, the more comp rules and tailored missions seem necessary in order for competetive play that is varied to any degree to be possible.

2500p
1850p
1500p 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

 ImAGeek wrote:
BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.


Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.


Holy crap, GOD FORBID we have to talk to our opponent! Good lord people do you ALWAYS play strangers when you play 40k? Is there absolutely no means of communication between you and other players outside of when you are actually playing? Maybe it's because I need to drive an hour to play but I actually manage to set up every game I play through the local facebook group. If you don't have one of those guess what: it is REALLY easy to make one, then next time you're at the store before you play interact with fellow players and tell them about it. Super easy.

As far as refusing to play Eldar players at all? Seriously grow the hell up. Most Eldar players probably won't be taking bike spam anyways as the $$$ cost is just too high (unless your meta was already super competitive, in which case isn't that par for the course?), and I'm willing to bet most people would be willing to tone down their list to make the game more fun, if they aren't they probably aren't a very fun opponent regardless of the list. I know if I end up steam rolling everyone in my meta with my normal list that's what I'll do. Refusing to play any Eldar player only hurts individual players and makes you seem like a jerk.

The last part wasn't directed at ImAGeek, just at all the posts saying they won't play Eldar at all
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





The Eternity Gate

 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


I think chess might be your preffered game then.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.


Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

 ImAGeek wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.


Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.


Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.


Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.


Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?


Because it's a public forum and I can post where I want? Because I still like the universe and if they made an effort with the balance I might return? I was being perfectly reasonable, I'm allowed to voice my opinion thank you very much.
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

 ImAGeek wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
There shouldn't be a 'casual/tournament list' divide in the first place though. I didn't say you should be able to take any list and win, there's always going to be the odd extreme skewy list that just doesn't work sometimes, but if you take a relatively balanced list, you should have a chance at the game. The game shouldn't come down to who brought the best list, it should be about who played better.

And I don't care if it's been that way since the start. They've had 30 bloody years to sort it out.


And players have had 30 years to figure out it will never be this way with 40k. There are plenty of other games out there if 40k isn't fitting your needs.


Exactly the reason I don't play it now, doesn't change my point.


Then why oh why are you posting in the Eldar rumor thread?! If you have nothing constructive to add and it doesn't affect you why bother?


Because it's a public forum and I can post where I want? Because I still like the universe and if they made an effort with the balance I might return? I was being perfectly reasonable, I'm allowed to voice my opinion thank you very much.


That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

Because the discussion went to a place where my opinion was relevant. I've hardly started the off topicness. Sometimes threads wander a bit. Why are you posting OT stuff now?

Anyway, it was about the Eldar dex, and the effect it looks like it will have on the game, so it wasn't really off topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 14:52:57


 
   
Made in se
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.


And YOU are posting OT stuff in this thread by arguing with him. Take your arguing over to the other thread, both of you are filling up this thread for people that actually want to discuss the rumours and models.

I for one am quite excited to get a small allied force of Windriders, maybe that Windrider Host, for my Astra Militarum. I think they will complement them quite well, without going over board with the cheese. The models look great! Especially the Farseer/Warlock kit. Can't wait to get my hands on them and paint them up

Alpharius? Never heard of him.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 alleus wrote:
That is such a cliche reply . I never said you aren't allowed to post, I asked why. If those are the things you want why are you specifically bothering to post OT stuff in a rumor thread? There is already another thread to "discuss" (read: complain about) the new Eldar.


And YOU are posting OT stuff in this thread by arguing with him. Take your arguing over to the other thread, both of you are filling up this thread for people that actually want to discuss the rumours and models.

I for one am quite excited to get a small allied force of Windriders, maybe that Windrider Host, for my Astra Militarum. I think they will complement them quite well, without going over board with the cheese. The models look great! Especially the Farseer/Warlock kit. Can't wait to get my hands on them and paint them up


The same. Jetbikes would help us get some mobility on the board.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
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The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Back on topic then: as some people have mentioned, aspect warriors have not been mentioned in the rumours at all thus far.

However, what would people expect to change?

I can't see scorpions or banshees getting much table time without an assault vehicle, with or without buffs.

   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.
   
Made in gt
Regular Dakkanaut






 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.


probably making the wave serpent an assault vehicle lol

most likely nothing, they will still collect dust.
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 ashikenshin wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.


probably making the wave serpent an assault vehicle lol

most likely nothing, they will still collect dust.


Unfortunately, you're probably right.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.


The easy solution is NOT to make Serpents assault vehicle, but to change the Acrobat rule that Banshees already have to allow them to assault after disembarking, and of course to make the Banshee mask count as grenades in the same way Flipbelts work for Harlies

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 15:23:39


   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Am I the only one who noticed that in the eldar warhost formations it says 'falcons' and 'prisms' which heavily implies that eldar player can now take 1-3 of each per heavy support slot?
Looking like a very big buff for eldar, because those tanks are going down in price if they are intending you to slot 3 into each heavy support option!!
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Nah, that was commented on previously.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in se
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard






9unit9 wrote:
 DarkLink wrote:
You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.


So a knight is worth the same as a baneblade?

A Wraithknight is worth 240 with weapons because that it what the current codex says. Losing all weapons to gain GMC status is what i was saying and the weapons be a pointed upgrade


Dont be silly, if the WK get a buff, it just mean the model should cost more to buy (and Im not talking points here). They need to balance the Wraithknight more with Baneblades and other super heavies by prize increase. Thats the Nottingham Equilibrium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 15:45:20


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Fresh-Faced New User





 pretre wrote:
Nah, that was commented on previously.



Fair enough, these eldar topics are on fire and it's hard to keep up with the posts. 5++ on all eldar vehicles is all but assured, so that's some serious tank support they have going on now. I think the codex will be internally balanced, much like necrons are, which means externally they are going to be a little bit tougher than the orks, but only slightly.
   
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Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

Well really at this point there is almost no point in leaving new posts. Everything from the WD has leaked so until we get better pictures of all the pages, or we get codex leaks nothing new can really be added.

On that note does anyone know the contents of the Farseer edition of the codex? No one has posted the whole page yet but looking at the leaked picture of it it almost looks like it only comes with the psychic powers and not the objective cards
   
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

One thing worth mentioning that I can't recall if it was mentioned or not...

Harlequin are NOT listed at all in the Warhost list.
Spoiler:
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 Kanluwen wrote:
One thing worth mentioning that I can't recall if it was mentioned or not...

Harlequin are NOT listed at all in the Warhost list.
Spoiler:


Yeah, it was expected really. Now you gotta pay another £25 if you wanna use your Harlies.

Oh no, £30. Thought it was one of the slightly cheaper ones. My bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/16 15:55:15


 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Butte, MT

 Kanluwen wrote:
One thing worth mentioning that I can't recall if it was mentioned or not...

Harlequin are NOT listed at all in the Warhost list.
Spoiler:


I would have been absolutely shocked if Harlequins had been in this codex
   
 
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