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Agreed wholeheartedly, but it really puts to bed the nonsense about the Harlequin book being a "Supplement" book.

 Kanluwen wrote:
One thing worth mentioning that I can't recall if it was mentioned or not...

Harlequin are NOT listed at all in the Warhost list.

Spoiler:

I'm so surprised. Never saw that coming months ago.

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.

KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.

Gamgee wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.

KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.

Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.

 arinnoor wrote:

Gamgee wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.

KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.

Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.

Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.

 arinnoor wrote:

Gamgee wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

It's about sending a message to GW. If we the community have to hurt the Eldar players themselves to get that message through to them then so be it. It's often only the most extreme actions that get anyone noticed these days. It's not like I want to do this. They could have released a reasonable balanced book with Eldar in it and we could all be on roughly equal footing. Instead they release a huge abomination of a codex that is so far superior in every aspect. If we're all being polite and bending over for GW to take this latest BS then the NOTHING will get done ever. It took the 40k community being up in arms over GK and Tau Fish of Fury to get them to fix those asap. This is how we need to stick together to show GW. If any Eldar players feel actual remorse for us plebeians who bought anything except Eldar because we want to have a diverse interesting play experience for anyone else. Then you can shelve your Eldar and refuse to play.

KICK UP A gak STORM! Everyone on every side of the fence. It's the only way we'll get their attention at this point. Hell even tournaments are going to have to crack down on this new Eldar Codex and heavily modify it and restrict it. I would love if they outright banned it, but I see that as unlikely.

Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.

I'm just stoking the embers and fires. No need for the gasoline or rope yet.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.

Oh I seemed to have missed this then. All I saw was a sidenote saying these units got D, no mention at all on points values, stats, or even how they get D. Honestly can you all say with certainty that this is a broken codex? That if it were you need X amount of shots to make it strength D its utterly broken? (I am imagining the better guns would get it easier so the wraithknights two would equal one shot, ten wraithguard can like for a shot, all the vauls for a shot, etc).

 arinnoor wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Because the rules have already been leaked and they're terrible.

Oh I seemed to have missed this then. All I saw was a sidenote saying these units got D, no mention at all on points values, stats, or even how they get D. Honestly can you all say with certainty that this is a broken codex? That if it were you need X amount of shots to make it strength D its utterly broken? (I am imagining the better guns would get it easier so the wraithknights two would equal one shot, ten wraithguard can like for a shot, all the vauls for a shot, etc).

Here you go.



4 x 270 points for a 10 man jetbike squad with 40 shots each at str 6, with 3+ jink, and eldar jetbike movement WITH ObSec.


I hope there is more to it. I hope the panic is unfounded. But all signs point to Herp-A-Derp.

@kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.

270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.

Do we know if the weapons stats have changed? For all we know they may drop the STR of the cannons and lasers

profiles are mostly the same with the scatter laser losing the laser lock rule

 Talys wrote:
@kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.

270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.

Problem is some armies can reliably pull this off. In most cases you won't even need to jink because you already have a 3+ which you can usually buff with powers to 2+. And the weapon range is 48 inches with a jump backwards.

What are Orks supposed to do against this? Eldar moves into 36 inches, fires its scatter lasers, then assault moves backwards. A 10 SL squad, should kill 22 regular boys a turn. I could also murder any trucks that are in game as well. With nids, same deal just pop in, average 6 wounds a turn on T6 with a 3+, wipe out something like a Tervigon and then leave. Most nid weapons except biovores are not longer range than 24 inches.

Even the races that do have counters are going to be forced to mono build. How much of the competitive meta is determined by WS spam right now? This is looking to do the same thing and just force people to develop builds that are forced to deal with one unit type.

@netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.

Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DiceDH wrote:
Do we know if the weapons stats have changed? For all we know they may drop the STR of the cannons and lasers

Weapon stats are on the opposing page of the White Dwarf. Only the Scatter Laser has changed (loses laser link).

So:
Free Shuriken Catapult = 12" S4AP5 Assault 2 Bladestorm
10 pts Shuriken cannon = 24" S6 AP5 Assault 3 Bladestorm
10 pts Scatter Laser = 36" S6 AP6 Heavy 4

Edit: Bladestorm unchanged. Roll of 6 wounds automatically, regardless of toughness resolved at AP2. I don't see how people can think 4 shot scatter later is better than 3 shot shuriken cannon with pseudorending on a unit that can haul ass, but anyhow.

 Talys wrote:
@netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.

Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).

I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.

nedTCM wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.

Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).

I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.

Well, the great thing about killing a unit is that it doesn't get to shoot back

That's kind of a strange way of figuring range, because even by your logic, the other army will be able to shoot 24" + their move. That's uh.. unless they have weapons that shoot > 24"

Anyways, I DO get the whole thing. Eldar Jetbikes shouldn't get to have special weapons on every unit, because nobody else does (on their bikes). I'm not sure it's as much doom and gloom as everyone is putting out to be, because it increases a 17 point unit to 27 points, and that's really expensive if it can't take a hit. In the same way that you don't want every terminator to have a power fist, I think ideally, you don't want every jetbike to have a scatter laser. So, at most, you'd want 2 units out of 3 with scatter lasers, so you wouldn't be flushing down 27 points every time someone looked at you sideways.

 Talys wrote:
@kronk -- if you make them jink, they're no longer much of a threat. And they are not durable, so hit them with something in the approach, and the number of shots drops dramatically.

270 points is actually a lot for something that can't take a hit. Deep strike with templates, long range fire, T1 charge, lots of things can hurt expensive soft targets.

Trouble is they out range a lot of guns, with 48" threat range and then jsj to back up out of range of retaliation.

 Talys wrote:

nedTCM wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@netTCM range is 36", by the way, if you get scatter laser. Everything else is 24" or lower.

Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).

I am implying effective range is 48 because 12 inch move then 36 inch shot. The cannon is pretty bad, but the one thing with spamming that guy is while they will kill a unit it is more likely that you will get a shot back with another unit because average JSJ should be around 6 inches and most armies have at least a 24 inch range.

Well, the great thing about killing a unit is that it doesn't get to shoot back

That's kind of a strange way of figuring range, because even by your logic, the other army will be able to shoot 24" + their move. That's uh.. unless they have weapons that shoot > 24"

Anyways, I DO get the whole thing. Eldar Jetbikes shouldn't get to have special weapons on every unit, because nobody else does (on their bikes). I'm not sure it's as much doom and gloom as everyone is putting out to be, because it increases a 17 point unit to 27 points, and that's really expensive if it can't take a hit. In the same way that you don't want every terminator to have a power fist, I think ideally, you don't want every jetbike to have a scatter laser. So, at most, you'd want 2 units out of 3 with scatter lasers, so you wouldn't be flushing down 27 points every time someone looked at you sideways.

You misread my post. I was saying even though they will kill a unit with the cannons I could have a DIFFERENT unit still in range of them to do some damage.

I play IG and in most cases I think I will be okay after this change because I have range. Others are not so lucky. And is lame because as I said a few posts up they are significantly better than other similar units like SM bikes, DE jetbikes, or Ork Bikes. And they are cheap than Orks and SM and only one point more than the DE one. The pricing for a regular bike doesn't make sense at all.

Unfortunately, we also haven't see what bonuses they are going to get when placed in the new formation chart as well. It actually has the potential to be much worse. And then you add in psy powers. Invisible bikes don't need to jink pretty much ever.

Just waiting to hear "Eldar Phase-Out" rules like the old Necrons.

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

This doesn't solve the problem. Instead of tabling my Orks on turn 2, the Eldar player will tone down their list to only table me on turn 4.

How does that give me a fair shot at winning the game?

Personally, I think the 24" Shuriken Cannon is more of a threat at 24" than the scatter laser is at 36" because of bladestorm (and JSJ).

The cannons are of course better vs 2+ saves. They pretty much break even vs 3+ saves. Scatter is better vs 4+ and 6+, cannon is better vs 5+

Once cover gets involved though the scatter laser pulls ahead. Also, 12 inch greater range is a huge advantage. They are also much better vs light/medium vehicles.

As you yourself said, the bikes themselves aren't all that durable, and that 36 range really does help keep them out of harms way with JSJ.

I don't see how people can think 4 shot scatter later is better than 3 shot shuriken cannon with pseudorending on a unit that can haul ass

Well now hopefully you do.

They both have merits of course, but I see the scatter laser being the preferred option to spam.

So for people playing an Eldar army with Harlequins have to spend $107.50 to update their rules. Thanks GW.

 Galef wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully they've done something finally for Banshees.

The easy solution is NOT to make Serpents assault vehicle, but to change the Acrobat rule that Banshees already have to allow them to assault after disembarking, and of course to make the Banshee mask count as grenades in the same way Flipbelts work for Harlies

Or give them Plasma Grenades?

Goobi2 wrote:
Just waiting to hear "Eldar Phase-Out" rules like the old Necrons.

'Dying Race'. If the casualties get too high, they split to conserve precious life.

nedTCM wrote:

You misread my post. I was saying even though they will kill a unit with the cannons I could have a DIFFERENT unit still in range of them to do some damage.

I play IG and in most cases I think I will be okay after this change because I have range. Others are not so lucky. And is lame because as I said a few posts up they are significantly better than other similar units like SM bikes, DE jetbikes, or Ork Bikes. And they are cheap than Orks and SM and only one point more than the DE one. The pricing for a regular bike doesn't make sense at all.

Unfortunately, we also haven't see what bonuses they are going to get when placed in the new formation chart as well. It actually has the potential to be much worse. And then you add in psy powers. Invisible bikes don't need to jink pretty much ever.

Ahh okay. I get it

Keep in mind, DE jetbikes all get FNP after the first round with progressive buffs as the game goes on, plus combat drugs, which aren't bad. Base unit has rapid fire too, though you have to get pretty close to benefit from it.

I think the new Eldar jetbikes are the best bikes in the game, based on the WD that I have on hand. Of course, GW wants to sell the shiny new jetbike models. I am not convinced they are game-breaking, nor the faction, though, just as I am not sure any of the weapons going Destroyer is game breaking -- the old Distort weapons were already very powerful, and if the units get more expensive, Destroyer on distortion weapons isn't the end of the world.

In most editions of 40k, Eldar have always been a really solid choice. However, for a long time -- and nothing is changing -- they have had really old, crappy models, which is why I don't play them Being stuck with old guardian and fire dragon models is a nerf unto itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nocturnus wrote:

Or give them Plasma Grenades?

Vortex Grenades!! remember those?

 arinnoor wrote:
Or, and it maybe heresy to say this, but perhaps we wait till the book comes out and then decide whether or not its worth rising up in a massed mob. Or go crazy now whichever works for you all.

You must be new here

Bored now. See you guys when the codex drops and we know more than just how 1 unit changed in one line of their entry and an unexplained comment about D weapons

Hope you guys enjoy the next week of moaning

All you eldar players... hang in there

I have to admit, what has leaked seems gawd-awful OP, but as others have stated,we don't know the whole story yet. There are so many potential caveats that could be inserted into the unit and wargear rules that balance things out.

For example, what if Wraithcannons (and heavy WC and D-cannons) have a modified "Gets Hot" style rule that on a roll to hit of 1, a Vortex blast is placed over the model? It would fit the fluff of distort weapons being incredibly dangerous to handle. That, coupled with a stiff price increase suddenly makes those wraith units less desirable and have a decent trade off in the risk vs reward category.

Have we received confirmation that windriders are still troops? I know the stats and cost haven't changed, but losing objective secured makes them less useful at grabbing objectives (one of their best attributes in the previous codex).

It certainly looks bad, but who knows, maybe GW will shock the world and not put out another broken codex.

I would definitely take the lasers over the shuriken cannons (at least if I was trying to be TFG eldar guy.)

36" range over 24" is a vey nice asset, an extra shot each is also really good. The bikes would absolutely have a bit of psychic support, so misfortune becomes a thing.

People keep saying that they're fragile. O.o since when?
Not many builds reach completely across the table and slap down 40 marines with optional jink on turn 1, and if you don't, you've probably lost. Drop pods might do some damage...until they just leave you in the dust on their next turn. And being bikes, you probably aren't hitting more than 3 on a template. There is literally no way you will ever assault them, unless the eldar player feels bad for you and wants to let you. I would always run them as obsec as well. Ld 8 is hardly bad. Still means they're passing more than failing. And big units probably either have a warlock or Farseer for higher ld, plus psychic shenanigans.

The list I would be looking at just from bike rumors alone is:
4 units of 5 scatbikes each, 2 units of 10 with warlocks. 2 jetseers to join one to each big unit with ML3 divination most likely. And then toss in the antitank and call it a day. If the codex just has overcosted anti-tank, it's pretty easy to take a FT detachment of BA for some melta drop squads on the cheap.

What could actually change that makes them more reasonable though? The jet bikes alone are ridiculous and we've already seen that that's not a mistake, so 'waiting for the whole picture' isn't going to fix that.

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could actually change that makes them more reasonable though? The jet bikes alone are ridiculous and we've already seen that that's not a mistake, so 'waiting for the whole picture' isn't going to fix that.

'Dying Race' - The Eldar are too few to waste their lives in pointless conflicts. If 25% of the Eldar force is destroyed or fleeing at the end of a game turn, the Eldar player removes all remaining models from the table.

Also, misprint/errata in the WD for the jetbike entry and/or the D is actually not what we think it is.