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yep, out this weekend...happy birthday to me. Will share my time studying for PT finals and figuring out how my list will need to be adjusted, and if I can fit in a Harlequin detachment (which isn't easy....hate their detachments/CAD)

 Raesvelg wrote:

 warboss wrote:

How does stomp work again?

Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.

It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.

Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.

33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talys wrote:

The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.

It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.

OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.

So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.

I never said that people who want to play 40k RAW and whose primary goal is to win the game regardless of anything else is TFG. Instead, I assert that 40k is a terrible game for that person, and they should find something better to do.

40k is not a videogame on the tabletop, no matter how much someone wants it to be.

At its heart, it is a gaming system designed to support a collection of models that are made to be artistic and cool, not realistic or fair. It was developed in the golden age of RPGs when GMs kept things in check and rules were often bent, changed or ignored, often inconsistently, as a means of improving the experience (look at Rogue Trader). While 40k is not that game anymore, it still has this in its DNA.

Today, 40k is an awesome game when regulars get together and play, certainly to win, but ALSO being considerate of other players. If my opponent has an obviously weak list -- let's say they came back after 10 years, and have no new models yet -- my goal is not to demonstrate how superior I am to them by stomping them good. Knowing the limitations of models of my opponent, I do not craft my list using my superior collection to beat them. If they aren't having fun, I would like to figure out why, and see if there is something I can do about it.

It isn't about coddlling your opponent. It is intramural hockey in a friendly league rather than pro hockey. Sure I want to win, as much as possible, but the real prize is the enjoyment of the game. In order for that to happen, I must be considerate of my opponent.

If the rules are really awful, and a change would make the game better, why not? If someone proposes something reasonable, or if something is unreasonably powerful, I'm happy to compromise.

40k tournaments are no different. Players recognize that certain rules, like invisibility, are just too good and tyonhard to overcome, so they Nerf it, to give everyone involved a better experience.

People who play 40k and love it are like Corvette owners (me! ) -- even though the year old car makes strange sounds, even though it is a pain in the ass, and and the Infiniti SUV runs way better and is a thousand times more practical, we love our vettes and get all giddy around them. We'll talk about them for hours, and don't care if they don't have a third seat or trunk space, or of the blown tire costs $800 to fix. It's just an awesome car, perhaps irrationally so.

likewise, people who love 40k love it knowing that the rules have always been imbalanced -- for three decades this has been so -- and likely forevermore will be. Yet, we have an awesome time competing with each other and find no other preferred form of entertainment.

Now, as I said when I began, if you seek a video game med into tabletop miniatures -- look elsewhere. 40k will disappoint.

So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

 agnosto wrote:
33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

This just means that WKs are better than IKs when you put the two against each other, not that WKs are unbeatable, nor that there aren't other units that will disproportionately defeat Wraithknights. Nor that IKs don't have their advantages (not being a LoW, and being able to just take as many as you want without regard for any other unit, being one).

Yes, if you only want to play Imperial Knights and you will only play against Wraithknights, then yeah, you're pretty much screwed.

Scrap that.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

 koooaei wrote:
Scrap that.

I liked where you were going with it.

I'm on the fence about massed Jetbikes w/ Scatterlasers. I've on and off run 9 War Walkers with Scatterlasers since 5th edition and they are hit or miss. 24 Shots would typically kill 4 Space Marines. This can drop a bit more due to how available things like FNP, Shrouding while in 4+ cover, Invisibility etc... Personally, I'd prefer my Wave Serpents as they were more durable and put out fantastic firepower for the points.

The Jetbikes are wonderful looking models. I know I will buy some, but I don't foresee taking masses of them. I need to look at all the other options as the type of armies

Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death



So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

shadowfinder wrote:
Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death



So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

That also confuses me.

Where was the source for that information anyhow? I find it extremely hard to believe that Wraithguard got bumped to Strength D with no points increase. How many people would pay 32 pts to have a grot with a D weapon? How many people would pay 32 pts for a fearless T6 3+ model with a D weapon?

who knows, maybe the wraithcannon and d-scythes are heavy and wraithguard lose relentless. what if the Jetbikes while all being equipped with a heavy weapon only a few can actually fire it during a turn. patience

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

Well...I'd LIKE to have jetbikes with starcannons and bright lances at least.

But Scatterlasers even in masse do nothing to the +3 sv armies out there, and even armies with +4s like Tau aren't going to shake too much over it.

Against Orks and Nids, it 'might' be better then a shuriken cannon, but even then I'd still rather have a better AP then overall STR, same reason I prefer Heavy Bolters over multilasers (or anything over a multilaser in IG)

Lol if you think 40 Scatter Laser shots w/ BS 4 won't decimate 3++ or 3 +.

 Januine wrote:

Javin wrote:
Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.

You in South Korea Javin?

Yes I am.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

Well...I'd LIKE to have jetbikes with starcannons and bright lances at least.

But Scatterlasers even in masse do nothing to the +3 sv armies out there, and even armies with +4s like Tau aren't going to shake too much over it.

Against Orks and Nids, it 'might' be better then a shuriken cannon, but even then I'd still rather have a better AP then overall STR, same reason I prefer Heavy Bolters over multilasers (or anything over a multilaser in IG)

You do realize that 4 shots per model that hits on 3s and wounds on 2s is still frelling scary to 3+ saves, right? A min unit of 3 bikes is still killing a MEQ each turn for what is only a 81 point unit that won't take return fire from anything but heavy weapons thanks to a 36" range and 2d6 assault move after.

Being able to save against a shot doesn't mean much when there's a crap ton of them that wound on anything but 1s and can do so from outside most gun ranges in the game save specialist guns.

You must have better luck then I do. 40 shots of anything that lets a marine save...I might kill 3-4.

7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

You are correct. Against T4 3+ models, a squad of scatriders kills 7.4 of them on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

And I've always noticed the exact opposite. 5 man squad takes 10 wounds, squad dies. That is why we use averages.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

No they don't? They do as they statistically should. That's sorta how statistics work. You might perceive them to do better than that or you might have somehow been very unlucky and only ever seen them do better, but generally they don't.

 warboss wrote:

He simply said it can't be done. Clearly that isn't the case.

Yes, but when you ask a silly rhetorical question, you get a silly explicit answer. The way people keep presenting things in this thread is entertaining as hell. The Wraithknight is grotesquely undercosted, but it's not invincible, and there are things equal to or less than its own points value that can destroy it. Similarly, it's very powerful, but it can't just walk on the board and obliterate everything it sees.

It's just... overly good for its points.

 agnosto wrote:

33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

You will, on average, get two chances to roll that 6 per round. Given the way that works out, it probably will not happen.

Ergo, unreliable. If you charge your IKs into things that can kill them in two rounds assuming that you'll Stomp them to death at the end of the first then... Wow.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

You are correct. Against T4 3+ models, a squad of scatriders kills 7.4 of them on average.

Thanks.


IIRC scatter lasers are AP5, so that means that same 40 will kill 11.1 FWs, and 22.2 IG.

So a squad of FWs a turn, and a feth ton a dead gaurd (not sure about gaurd squad sizes). Although this may get people to use more cover (finally)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Thanks.

IIRC scatter lasers are AP5, so that means that same 40 will kill 11.1 FWs, and 22.2 IG.

So a squad of FWs a turn, and a feth ton a dead gaurd (not sure about gaurd squad sizes). Although this may get people to use more cover (finally)

AP6 actually. So "only" 14.8 dead IG.

Entertainingly, given that a bare-bones squad of IG is 50 points, you could buy six squads for not too much more than the Jetbikes cost. And said Jetbikes could spend four full turns killing them all. Almost six turns if they're smart enough to find some 4+ cover. Eight turns if they bother to go to ground. Sixteen turns if they go to ground behind an Aegis Line!

Of course, the Jetbikes could fly over said Aegis Line to shoot the Guardsmen in the back. Which makes it a pity that Get Back In The Fight! is a Senior Officer-only Order, because it'd be funny as hell to see the surviving 40 Guardsmen pop back up and kill off half the Jetbikes with... lasguns.

To those who mentioned mentioned Neuro Disrupters, does Fleshbane wound GMC on 2+? I thought they only wounded on 6's, no?

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

No offence, but this is easily the most incorrect post I have seen this year.
I can't even begin to explain how out of touch this opinion is...

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

 Zewrath wrote:
To those who mentioned mentioned Neuro Disrupters, does Fleshbane wound GMC on 2+? I thought they only wounded on 6's, no?

No. Sniper and Poisoned only wound them on a 6, and they only take D3 wounds from Instant Death weapons, but Fleshbane is still a 2+ to wound.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

6 Shots? It's like they're getting better with each post. They're 4 shots.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

It's 4 shots per Scatter Laser but your point still stands.