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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

Scatter lasers only have four shots.

Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Me and some friends sat and looked at the changes to Eldar coming out. While there are obvious cheese available, the detachment alone makes it harder to do that, and you're very limited on how you bring this stuff, such as Necrons are. The only thing is, Eldar are paying a premium (Except for the Wraithknight, that things too cheap) for what they get. And the detachment helps limit it even more, so they overall don't end up having much.

And even then, spamming Scatriders and Wraithknights probably wouldn't even win you games in a competitive setting. And if it does, come at me when I drop two Monoliths with evacuating guys on your side of the board. Your wraithguard fold, and your bikes die. Good day sir.

So, We'll see what happens, but people need to look at all the angles. Yeah, this release is overall a bit stupid, and they could've done a lot more to this book to make it more balanced, but it's not the end of the world. Eldar probably won't be facerolling everyone, unless you, yourself, let it happen.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

Well, they haven't had 6 shots in 19 years, so I think you're safe on that one. 36" S6 AP6 Heavy 4. Still a very nice gun and way too good for a 10 point upgrade though.

Caederes wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

It's 4 shots per Scatter Laser but your point still stands.

Thank you and apologies. Brain no work after waking up.

Point is there's still enough fire in 4 shots to worry a horde. And when put on a fast moving platform that can turbo boost about a bit and get behind your vehicles relatively easily? Yeah. It'll worry vehicles too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Wait, wait, wait. You played a game against a list you and everyone else have had 2 years to learn to overcome and adapt to. And because you can beat said list with Necrons it needs to be buffed?

No. No no no. That is terrible reasoning.

Hey guys, I played against this thing that I've learned how to beat over the last two years and beat it, therefore let's buff the ever living crap out of it.

Assuming you know this buddy and have known him for a while...odds are he uses a similar if not the same list for every game or so.
His codex doesn't need a buff. He needs to switch things up. That's sort of how a meta works, regardless of what it's in...

OK, they've learned how to beat X. Y looks interesting. Let's throw Y in and see if they can deal with that.

ImAGeek wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

No they don't? They do as they statistically should. That's sorta how statistics work. You might perceive them to do better than that or you might have somehow been very unlucky and only ever seen them do better, but generally they don't.

Hahahahahahaha. I'm sorry, I have to chime in.

@ImAGeek - Yeah! It's just simple probability.

@KingmanHighborn - If you Play Moar..... eventually... dem dice rolls will be the mathematical mean.

However:

In reality, you don't have an empty 6' table with scatter lasers on one end, bolters on the other, and they run towards each other until the jetbikes can JSJ in and out and kill all the marines. Because if that happens, the marine player is just slowed. also, 10 windriders costs.. 80? ... more points than 10 marines with lascannon and 2 plasmas.

JSJ also has diminishing returns as you add more units and terrain. Basically, if you have 10-20 jetbikes, they can be very effective, but if you have 40-60 jetbikes, they will have nowhere to retreat to, and just get in the way of all your other stuff.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Me and some friends sat and looked at the changes to Eldar coming out. While there are obvious cheese available, the detachment alone makes it harder to do that, and you're very limited on how you bring this stuff, such as Necrons are. The only thing is, Eldar are paying a premium (Except for the Wraithknight, that things too cheap) for what they get. And the detachment helps limit it even more, so they overall don't end up having much.

And even then, spamming Scatriders and Wraithknights probably wouldn't even win you games in a competitive setting. And if it does, come at me when I drop two Monoliths with evacuating guys on your side of the board. Your wraithguard fold, and your bikes die. Good day sir.

So, We'll see what happens, but people need to look at all the angles. Yeah, this release is overall a bit stupid, and they could've done a lot more to this book to make it more balanced, but it's not the end of the world. Eldar probably won't be facerolling everyone, unless you, yourself, let it happen.

well of course it dosent look cheezy to you two. You are playing the best 2 armies in the game power wise. Try fighting him with orks, or non flyrant spamming tyranids, or 4 or 5 other armies that stand no chance. Eldar and necrons dont exist in a vacumme.

 Talys wrote:

In reality, you don't have an empty 6' table with scatter lasers on one end, bolters on the other, and they run towards each other until the jetbikes can JSJ in and out and kill all the marines. Because if that happens, the marine player is just slowed. also, 10 windriders costs.. 80? ... more points than 10 marines with lascannon and 2 plasmas.

JSJ also has diminishing returns as you add more units and terrain. Basically, if you have 10-20 jetbikes, they can be very effective, but if you have 40-60 jetbikes, they will have nowhere to retreat to, and just get in the way of all your other stuff.

While it's true that sterile mathhammering is silly ("hey, Skitarii Vanguard will beat Eldar Guardians 100% of the time for the same points cost! Clearly Skitarii are broken!"), it does help to give a general idea of just how good a given unit is.

And Scatterlaser Jetbikes are just way too good for 27 points. Yes, vs an equal points value of, say, Dark Reapers (which are pretty much custom made for killing Jetbikes and such), it comes down to who gets to take the first shot.

But Eldar Jetbikes are extremely mobile whereas Dark Reapers are about as slow as Eldar get, and as such they're probably going to be setting the terms of that engagement. So assuming two players of equal skill they're going to win that fight most of the time, vs something that is for all intents and purposes designed specifically to kill them.

Personally, I thought that Windrider Jetbikes should have either gone up in points, or dropped to 4+ armor. Which wouldn't be quite as bad, given that with 4+ armor, the number of things that can effectively kill them would be vastly increased.

The irony for me is that the 10 point Scatter Laser is hypothetically what you get when you strip Laser Lock off of it, but GW apparently forgot that they gave Laser Lock to Scatter Lasers for free last time.

Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

 Raesvelg wrote:
And Scatterlaser Jetbikes are just way too good for 27 points. Yes, vs an equal points value of, say, Dark Reapers (which are pretty much custom made for killing Jetbikes and such), it comes down to who gets to take the first shot.

...

The irony for me is that the 10 point Scatter Laser is hypothetically what you get when you strip Laser Lock off of it, but GW apparently forgot that they gave Laser Lock to Scatter Lasers for free last time.

You are right. But I would be happier if people would also say 17 points for an eldar jetbike with a shuriken catapult with bladestorm is way too good too.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Hey guys, I played against this thing that I've learned how to beat over the last two years and beat it, therefore let's buff the ever living crap out of it.

Probably the same logic the GW design team uses, honestly. Phil Kelly's Eldar are probably starting to get beat by the other designers now and he needs to crank things up another notch.

So, is the book a good one or not?

Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

5-th ed SW were annoying as they were marines+1 with questionable fluff.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

What point was proved? That a Necron army can beat a 6th ed Eldar army? That after 2 years people have developed tactics to deal with certain armies?

That you're more likely to beat a person you play against regularly, especially if they don't switch up their list often as you know how they think, how they play and what they tend to do?

That's not a point. That's how a meta evolves. X is strong. You spend time learning how to beat X. X starts losing. Someone, somewhere introduces Y to the mix. Y becomes strong. People have to adapt to beat Y. Lists that beat Y are weak to X. X becomes strong again.

This is especially true of Eldar. . Aspect Spam 2nd, Bike and Ranger spam 3rd, Aspect and Bike spam in 4th, Serpent spam in 5th, Serpent or Wraith spam in 6th back to bike spam and wraith spam in 7th.

With regards to the scatter lasers vs. TMCs? Uh, way to miss the point. The point there is the scatter laser has fantastic utility on a 27 point model. Insane utility in fact. A high enough rate of fire to worry hordes or elite units, high strength to worry vehicles and MCs and it's on a fast moving, fairly durable platform that is remarkably inexpensive for what it does. To put it in perspective. Yeah, it's AP 6. It's also got a 3 foot range on a unit that can perpetually move back and can move forward at quite a respectable pace. Assault armies will not catch it and it has enough range to worry firepower based armies. Plus, the very same army with this will likely be crapping out D-weapon Wraithknights which will happily dispose of TMCs.

Perhaps it's the Tyranid player in me speaking but a lot of Eldar players here just don't appreciate how good jetbikes have become. Or perhaps they don't appreciate how incredibly potent a fast moving, long ranged, multiple shot S6 weapon is. Dear god. People kick up a stink about Flyrants (which are all twin-devourer armed to be frank, anything else is sub-par) but sit here and let this by without a problem?

Oh, but a Flyrant is hard to kill. Yes. But really, the risk of the Flyrant comes in what it actually does. If you have a brick that does NOTHING then it's not a threat or a problem to anything. Flyrants fly forward, spray horrendous amounts of S6 firepower into things and are annoying to kill.

For roughly the same cost of an upgraded, fancy Flyrant you have 9 of these bloody bikes zipping around.

So, let's compare.

Flyrant. 18 inch range. 12 shots at BS4 with rerolls.
Bikes. 36 inch range (42 if you want to include them jumping forward and back). 36 shots at BS3. Plus, Objective secured in a CAD or Ally detachment.

Sure, the bikes are easier to wound and kill. But they have more than double the Flyrants effective range. If there is some sort of artifact or psychic power that gives a character and its unit skyfire? Well, RIP based Flyrant.

It would seem to me it's not that the bikes have these weapons but the bikes are under costed. In my opinion this is a problem with their previous incarnation in the sixth book which unfortunately has been carried on into this new seventh book . It really didn't matter if the jet bikes all could take the heavy weapons what matters they were still not priced appropriately for even being just what they were . 17 points for one bikers is still too good for a mere three points you get superb mobility over the space marine and you really only have a few stats that are lower. It is the same kinda math between CSM and SM

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

What point was proved? That a Necron army can beat a 6th ed Eldar army? That after 2 years people have developed tactics to deal with certain armies?

That you're more likely to beat a person you play against regularly, especially if they don't switch up their list often as you know how they think, how they play and what they tend to do?

That's not a point. That's how a meta evolves. X is strong. You spend time learning how to beat X. X starts losing. Someone, somewhere introduces Y to the mix. Y becomes strong. People have to adapt to beat Y. Lists that beat Y are weak to X. X becomes strong again.

This is especially true of Eldar. . Aspect Spam 2nd, Bike and Ranger spam 3rd, Aspect and Bike spam in 4th, Serpent spam in 5th, Serpent or Wraith spam in 6th back to bike spam and wraith spam in 7th.

With regards to the scatter lasers vs. TMCs? Uh, way to miss the point. The point there is the scatter laser has fantastic utility on a 27 point model. Insane utility in fact. A high enough rate of fire to worry hordes or elite units, high strength to worry vehicles and MCs and it's on a fast moving, fairly durable platform that is remarkably inexpensive for what it does. To put it in perspective. Yeah, it's AP 6. It's also got a 3 foot range on a unit that can perpetually move back and can move forward at quite a respectable pace. Assault armies will not catch it and it has enough range to worry firepower based armies. Plus, the very same army with this will likely be crapping out D-weapon Wraithknights which will happily dispose of TMCs.

Perhaps it's the Tyranid player in me speaking but a lot of Eldar players here just don't appreciate how good jetbikes have become. Or perhaps they don't appreciate how incredibly potent a fast moving, long ranged, multiple shot S6 weapon is. Dear god. People kick up a stink about Flyrants (which are all twin-devourer armed to be frank, anything else is sub-par) but sit here and let this by without a problem?

Oh, but a Flyrant is hard to kill. Yes. But really, the risk of the Flyrant comes in what it actually does. If you have a brick that does NOTHING then it's not a threat or a problem to anything. Flyrants fly forward, spray horrendous amounts of S6 firepower into things and are annoying to kill.

For roughly the same cost of an upgraded, fancy Flyrant you have 9 of these bloody bikes zipping around.

So, let's compare.

Flyrant. 18 inch range. 12 shots at BS4 with rerolls.
Bikes. 36 inch range (42 if you want to include them jumping forward and back). 36 shots at BS3. Plus, Objective secured in a CAD or Ally detachment.

Sure, the bikes are easier to wound and kill. But they have more than double the Flyrants effective range. If there is some sort of artifact or psychic power that gives a character and its unit skyfire? Well, RIP based Flyrant.

Bikes are BS4.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

Just a quick note that the combat calculator is pretty outdated by now. For example, it still thinks Feel No Pain is on a 4+ instead of 5+, which skews numbers.

Nocturnus wrote:

Bikes are BS4.

That just makes it even worse really.

Totally need more people with other armies complaining here and insinuating Eldar players have no clue

Suite wrote:
Totally need more people with other armies complaining here and insinuating Eldar players have no clue

More like people who realise exactly what sort of Pandora's box GW opened.

Because it's not pretty. It's really not pretty at all.

Only reason my Eldar aren't used is because I'm too lazy to resume a yellow/red scheme. But yeah, I'm beginning to think the recent toning down we saw all just got thrown out the window.

Has it been confirmed that this is all a hoax yet?

This would be a pretty long-winded and intricate hoax.

Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

Well...
I am just glad there are new jetbikes.
I have been collecting Eldar, Harlequin and Dark Eldar jetbikes for (many) years and with the new models i have 2 types of jetbikes for Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins: PERFECT!

That a maxed army might be overpowered: we will see.
I never liked the Wraithlord armies in 3rd and 4th, the skimmer armies in 5th and the wave serpents in 6th (faced 6 serpents plus 2 wraithknights in a tournament recently, no fun whatsoever), so i look forward to a new codex that IMO cannot have a worse effect then the previous.

Yes, jetbikes can have firepower that seems a bit too much, but they remain fragile.

How should we should call it guys? Eldargate or scattergate?

I really enjoy the aspects buffs and I wish there was a formation where you could play purely aspects like the old biel Tan. Models are holding up but some of them would be really great if they got an update like spiders and shinning spears (which btw is plain stupid they didn't got a model).

But besides that the buff to jetbikes, Wraithknights and wraithguard destroyer weapons weren't that necessary at all. The serpents maintained their survivability but now the payload they are gonna deliver is far deadlier...

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

This just means that WKs are better than IKs when you put the two against each other, not that WKs are unbeatable, nor that there aren't other units that will disproportionately defeat Wraithknights. Nor that IKs don't have their advantages (not being a LoW, and being able to just take as many as you want without regard for any other unit, being one).

Yes, if you only want to play Imperial Knights and you will only play against Wraithknights, then yeah, you're pretty much screwed.

No, my post was in regards to stomps being declared unreliable. I have no idea what your response to my post is about because I wasn't complaining about WKs or anything else just someone's silly comment that stomps don't work (because they do).

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

There is no second wave from last reports. This is it. Next week is Assassins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qAWauBAkM

 w0lfgang7 wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

There is no second wave from last reports. This is it. Next week is Assassins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qAWauBAkM

Well, that's more disappointing than anything I've read about the codex.
At least there's word of Genestealers/Tyranids later this year.

A quick question on the swooping hawks as I understand they now have an 18" movement and if they pass over a flyer they also get a special attack against the flyer. Before they always had haywire nades and could attack land based vehicles, have they now lost this ability for the flying attack or can they still also assualt land vehicles? Thanks.