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I think the 18" move and grenade attack replaces skyleap.

 Raesvelg wrote:


You will, on average, get two chances to roll that 6 per round. Given the way that works out, it probably will not happen.

Ergo, unreliable. If you charge your IKs into things that can kill them in two rounds assuming that you'll Stomp them to death at the end of the first then... Wow.

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

These two are some of several posts I had read about it: (links corrected)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788863
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788929

The GW design studio is now two teams, one of them focussing on fluff material. Mr. Kelly is part of it

Warhams-77 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

These two are some of several posts I had read about it: (links corrected)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788863
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788929

The GW design studio is now two teams, one of them focussing on fluff material. Mr. Kelly is part of it

What's the source on the original claim?

The "I asked at Games Day" statements are about as credible as "My Dad works at Nintendo" if the source isn't verifiable and trust able.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I think the 18" move and grenade attack replaces skyleap.

Ok thanks, I suppose its too early yet to know for sure 100% but that makes sense.

An 18 inch move plus a possible 6 inch run and the 12 inch charge makes them quite a vehicle threat if they can still haywire grenade land vehicles.

No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

You poor person.
I can't think how interesting the Holidays must be for you

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

You poor person.
I can't think how interesting the Holidays must be for you

It's a joke, but that would be interesting.

5 days for the new bikes

I cant wait, but I have an AI exam on the 28th so I need to revise not paint :(

I'll read through the codex Friday night and try to figure out how to configure my force. I'm very much Iyanden heavy (20 wraithguard of various types, 2 lords, 1 knight) and only have a few "Troops" in 10 Rangers. I guess I'll have to create a normal CAD and then add the wraith host detachment. I'm assuming Wave Serpents will still be upgrades for the Guard which will allow my scythes to be a little mobile (I only have 1 serpent). I could always do a Harlequin CAD and then add the wraith host to that (if legal). I don't think I want windriders as I have Harlie and DE jetbikes already. Maybe I'll do a Wych CAD and then add the wraith host. I just need to get the DE codex at some point (have some wyches, reavers and hellions)

I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

In my experience (not just with 40k but other games like Heavy Gear), the final line is more often "I really hope they change the wave serpents to something less overpowered". After years of denying anything needs to be done and that the problem is the player and not the product, the champions of *insert game company here* do a total 180 and start advocating change when the hints of a replacement book FOR SALE start coming out. Thei end goal, after all, is to be the biggest public supporter of the company and their CURRENT stance. When the new product is on the horizon, you gotta start stagging the old one to justify people buying the new one. YMMV.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

You are correct of course. There are already people in my area who have shifted to "we need to adjust/L2P" arguments.

I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Do we know if Hawks kept a haywire per squad member? Thought it would be limited to the Exarch the way Harli/DE were.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do we know if Hawks kept a haywire per squad member? Thought it would be limited to the Exarch the way Harli/DE were.

No word on that, but if they have that fly-by attack, it seems likely they're all equipped with them.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

 docdoom77 wrote:


I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Insert pic of Mr. Burns steepling his fingers and laughing. "Excellent."

GW wins and their business strategy is vindicated.

Requizen wrote:
[quote=Mr Morden 640806 7770061 3
I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

Chad Warden wrote:


At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

I like redheads :(

Dark Angels will forever be gimped, because GW wants people to upgrade from the starter box faction. Much like CSM

Requizen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

But so many codices have already been left in the dirt, that's why this is frustrating.

 Talys wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:


At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

I like redheads :(

Dark Angels will forever be gimped, because GW wants people to upgrade from the starter box faction. Much like CSM

See, that does actually make some sense, I could see them doing that... Would be more likely if DA hadn't always been crap though haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

But so many codices have already been left in the dirt, that's why this is frustrating.

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

 agnosto wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:


I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Insert pic of Mr. Burns steepling his fingers and laughing. "Excellent."

GW wins and their business strategy is vindicated.

They're evil geniuses. No doubt about it.

Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

 agnosto wrote:

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

That makes exactly zero sense. Stomp's unreliability is offset by the existence of HoW and conventional attacks; that does not alter the unreliability of Stomp.

I never said having Stomp made something unreliable, I sad Stomp was unreliable and you disagreed. When you charge a SHW or GC into combat you do your math based on what you're likely to get, and you don't just assume that you'll be able to massacre things en masse with lucky Stomp rolls.

I'm pleased that you've come around to my way of thinking though, since by admission that you don't depend on Stomps, you've admitted their unreliability.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

GW have always done this though.

3rd edition. The advent of Chaos 3.5 indicated a shift in Codex power levels for the remainder of 3rd.

4th edition. Toward the end we saw Eldar, Dark Angels and Chaos which were all rather...unimpressive. We assumed that was the new power level. Toned down, less options, more straightforward. Then Orks and Daemons happened....and then with 5th the Space Marine codex basically became everything that was taken away from CSM.

5th edition. Ramped all the way up to Necrons for silly shenanigans.

Then 6th came and we saw Dark Angels and CSM...and were sad. We assumed this would be the new standard again. Then the Taudar Nation attacked.

Toward the end of 6th and 7th we again started to see things tone down. AM, Orks, Space Wolves, not too impressive. Some tricks but not meta-breaking. Every codex that got updated was 'meh'.

And now Eldar hit.

It's not a new pattern for GW to be squirrelly with their patterns. It's almost like they released a few, realised people weren't tripping over and buying out all their stock because the rules were WTF broken...and decided to fix that. Again.

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

It seems unlikely, given that the Wraith Host formation lists them as a single model, while every other thing you can buy as units in the War Host says units.

GW probably hasn't even changed their points, thus keeping them the red-headed stepchild of all Wraith units.

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

If I remember right they're exactly the same right down to the sword. The sword which gives wraithknights SD but wraithlords +1 S.....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

GW have always done this though.

3rd edition. The advent of Chaos 3.5 indicated a shift in Codex power levels for the remainder of 3rd.

4th edition. Toward the end we saw Eldar, Dark Angels and Chaos which were all rather...unimpressive. We assumed that was the new power level. Toned down, less options, more straightforward. Then Orks and Daemons happened....and then with 5th the Space Marine codex basically became everything that was taken away from CSM.

5th edition. Ramped all the way up to Necrons for silly shenanigans.

Then 6th came and we saw Dark Angels and CSM...and were sad. We assumed this would be the new standard again. Then the Taudar Nation attacked.

Toward the end of 6th and 7th we again started to see things tone down. AM, Orks, Space Wolves, not too impressive. Some tricks but not meta-breaking. Every codex that got updated was 'meh'.

And now Eldar hit.

It's not a new pattern for GW to be squirrelly with their patterns. It's almost like they released a few, realised people weren't tripping over and buying out all their stock because the rules were WTF broken...and decided to fix that. Again.

'They've always done it' isn't an excuse.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

That makes exactly zero sense. Stomp's unreliability is offset by the existence of HoW and conventional attacks; that does not alter the unreliability of Stomp.

I never said having Stomp made something unreliable, I sad Stomp was unreliable and you disagreed. When you charge a SHW or GC into combat you do your math based on what you're likely to get, and you don't just assume that you'll be able to massacre things en masse with lucky Stomp rolls.

I'm pleased that you've come around to my way of thinking though, since by admission that you don't depend on Stomps, you've admitted their unreliability.

Are you being obtuse or just missing the point? Stomps are not something that you should just take out of the complete assault picture because they don't happen in a vacuum. Nothing to my knowledge just has stomp attacks ergo, it's ridiculous to simply say that stomps are unreliable as they don't happen alone, singular, outside of the other things that occur as part of the entire assault phase.

You made my point for me in the second section of your post. By your reasoning, all attacks are unreliable because you have to roll to hit and then to wound and then you don't know if your opponent will make one of several saving options so you estimate what your damage will be. That's the nature of the game and when you're using a model with a stomp attack, you don't just look at the stomp and say, "gee, I better not assault because if I just get one stomp, I won't do hardly any damage", no, you're thinking, "Ok, I've got a shot at a wound with HoW, then my 5 attacks, then possibly 1-3 stomps afterwards." Notice, 1-3 stomps...at least one. So, in my example, I'm basically getting at least 2 auto-hits, one from the HoW and one from a stomp (possibly 2 more if I roll well). An average of 2 stomps per turn which gives me an average 2 in 12 chance for a 6. Those are not crappy odds from a freebie at the end of assault.

Anyway, think what you like. It's quite possible we're talking past each other here anyway. Cheers.