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Here are some more crazy ideas to wargame.

Pushing a 100pt Dreadnought into a Warrior mob will force LD8/LD9 morale checks the remainder of the game unless your opponent commits another unit to peeling it away. Everyone is afraid of Gauss but one day a smart guy will figure out a way to get past it. Blind checks, Snap Shots, or some kind of save maybe?

Wraiths can be countered with a 10-man ASM squad, 2x Jump Librarians with Force Mauls/Digital Weapons and a Jump Chaplain to make sure everyone hits. I did some quick stats and it seems promising despite it's expense. If you add Psychic Shriek you may wipe them on the charge, and then that mini-star becomes a nightmare to everything else.

Land Speeders are not a hard counter but a 75pt Typhoon Speeder can go toe-to-toe with 3x Tomb Blades at 66pts, with greater range and firepower. They Jink, you don't.

Nothing is the whole story though, you can't win with a list. These suggestion don't "work". You have to actually win on the table and that's where the human factor makes things complicated. Failing a few times will be inevitable until everyone works out how to apply their ideas. What Decurion and Wraiths will do without question is force two new items to check off in list building. "How do I deal with massed resilient units (3+/4++)", and "What is my dedicated counter-assault capability?" Nobz are not going to cut it, you need 400+pts of MegaNobz and a faster unit to pin the Wraiths so you can leverage as many Furious Charge PK attacks as possible. If Necron brings 500+ points of A+ assault into his list, maybe you need to start thinking bigger too.

People were complaining about nothing but S6/S7 spam in the meta and assault being completely pointless, right? Well, guess what... I think that's no longer the case!

If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau. Army wide 4+ FnP too good, being able to maintain that constant amount of turn 1 firepower because your stuff doesnt die is too good.

davethepak wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Well, they have a lot of problems
- the biggest of which is they can't shoot their main weapon (S8ap3 large blast, ordnance) without forcing their secondary weapons to snap fire
- they can mishap landing on a guardsman.
- they can't move more than 6 (for heavy, which due to ordnance gives them nothing).
- they can get immobilized on a tuft of grass (which is silly for a flying pyramid).

None of these things got fixed. I mean, most necron players would have happily given up Ordanance on the particle whip - which would have been a buff!

Worse, they lost their warp gate, which at least was a minor threat (and a lot of fun, actually) to assaulting infantry.

I love the model, and the fluff on them is very cool (and them being able to spit out infantry from reserve can be cool) but they are a string of disappointments otherwise.

Overall, the internal balance on the book is VERY good....with few exceptions (monolith and ctan on the bad end, and tomb blades and decurion spiders on the other).

Again, I have to disagree. The Monolith is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a gun platform. So look at it as a cheaper Land Raider with a freaking Battle Cannon, OR, some now S5 shots that can also chip off hull points on vehicles. On top of that, it has IWND 6+, has access to MTC and can precision strike (Formation benefits), ignores half the vehicle damage chart (Land Raiders can't do that), and can tactically spit out any unit you have in reserves or on the board (Again, huge advantage over the Land Raider) all for a measly 200 points. That is not a very steep price at all for everything you get. Sure, you can't spit out dudes the turn you deep strike (unless you take the formation), but then otherwise you have MTC from Decurion, and it got indirectly buffed with the fact that Silver Tide is now a very scary, very good strategy, and they can be used for tactical board control. You cannot throw them into any old list and expect it to work, but instead build your list around planning on using it a lot. Also, think about a lot of power builds. Serpent Spam, Draigostar, Screamerstar. You know who could easily deal with a ton of AV14 vehicles? Not many of them. Not many of them at all.

I have considered getting a second one, personally.

 krodarklorr wrote:

davethepak wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

davethepak wrote:
the monliths actually got worse

explain

Well, they have a lot of problems
- the biggest of which is they can't shoot their main weapon (S8ap3 large blast, ordnance) without forcing their secondary weapons to snap fire
- they can mishap landing on a guardsman.
- they can't move more than 6 (for heavy, which due to ordnance gives them nothing).
- they can get immobilized on a tuft of grass (which is silly for a flying pyramid).

None of these things got fixed. I mean, most necron players would have happily given up Ordanance on the particle whip - which would have been a buff!

Worse, they lost their warp gate, which at least was a minor threat (and a lot of fun, actually) to assaulting infantry.

I love the model, and the fluff on them is very cool (and them being able to spit out infantry from reserve can be cool) but they are a string of disappointments otherwise.

Overall, the internal balance on the book is VERY good....with few exceptions (monolith and ctan on the bad end, and tomb blades and decurion spiders on the other).

Again, I have to disagree. The Monolith is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a gun platform. So look at it as a cheaper Land Raider with a freaking Battle Cannon, OR, some now S5 shots that can also chip off hull points on vehicles. On top of that, it has IWND 6+, has access to MTC and can precision strike (Formation benefits), ignores half the vehicle damage chart (Land Raiders can't do that), and can tactically spit out any unit you have in reserves or on the board (Again, huge advantage over the Land Raider) all for a measly 200 points. That is not a very steep price at all for everything you get. Sure, you can't spit out dudes the turn you deep strike (unless you take the formation), but then otherwise you have MTC from Decurion, and it got indirectly buffed with the fact that Silver Tide is now a very scary, very good strategy, and they can be used for tactical board control. You cannot throw them into any old list and expect it to work, but instead build your list around planning on using it a lot. Also, think about a lot of power builds. Serpent Spam, Draigostar, Screamerstar. You know who could easily deal with a ton of AV14 vehicles? Not many of them. Not many of them at all.

I have considered getting a second one, personally.

His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

changemod wrote:


His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

It was nerfed in one aspect of the Eternity Gate. Otherwise, stayed the same if not got better. I've used them a few times now with great success. But sure, if you want some more of the point-n-click units, that works too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

changemod wrote:


His primary point is that it's been nerfed from already being considered weak.

And yes, it has been nerfed. Losing the offensive option of the gate, being unable to move before disembarking units through it and only being allowed to reposition infantry and jump infantry are bigger losses than 1 point stronger snap firing or regaining hull points on a 6.

No, it's not a gun platform, but it is nothing more than 200 points of glorified Leman Russ with the power to reposition things to one specific footslogging speed spot.

It was nerfed in one aspect of the Eternity Gate. Otherwise, stayed the same if not got better. I've used them a few times now with great success. But sure, if you want some more of the point-n-click units, that works too.

I've already spelled out twice that the Eternity Gate received three separate small nerfs.

Given that the entire unit is built around the utility of said gate, that's really, really bad.

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau.

Did the lists you played against possess:

- Dedicated counter-assault? Like, 400+ point mini-deathstars that can reliably kill Wraiths?
- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I'm thinking, probably not. Surprise -- if you don't bring those two key points, Necrons are probably going to win. Having an army that upsets the meta is very powerful. Look at the lists that went to the LVO final. I just disagree in that I expect players will eventually adapt. Right now everyone is going to get stomped. That will give them the motivation to scrap their list to try out something new. Even if they can't figure it out themselves, they will eventually just copy the first people bright enough to figure out the tactical puzzle.

It's just my opinion man. But unless every alternative in every codex has been thoroughly explored, I'm still thinking it's a little early to start begging either your opponent or GW for mercy. If it's not competitive, feel free to tailor the game to your enjoyment.

I think IG players would kill for LRBTs having side and rear armor upped to 14 for 50 extra points, as well as 1 extra hullpoint, the ability to DS, disembark stuff from reserve, better snapfiring damage output and regain the odd hullpoint back.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you think Necrons aren't powerful or are balanced I feel you need to re-read that codex. I haven't lost a single match with the new Necrons, even against eldar and tau.

Did the lists you played against possess:

- Dedicated counter-assault? Like, 400+ point mini-deathstars that can reliably kill Wraiths?
- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I'm thinking, probably not. Surprise -- if you don't bring those two key points, Necrons are probably going to win. Having an army that upsets the meta is very powerful. Look at the lists that went to the LVO final. I just disagree in that I expect players will eventually adapt. Right now everyone is going to get stomped. That will give them the motivation to scrap their list to try out something new. Even if they can't figure it out themselves, they will eventually just copy the first people bright enough to figure out the tactical puzzle.

It's just my opinion man. But unless every alternative in every codex has been thoroughly explored, I'm still thinking it's a little early to start begging either your opponent or GW for mercy. If it's not competitive, feel free to tailor the game to your enjoyment.

What sort of 400+ point minideaths can deal with wraiths and the of the army at the same time?

 Sir Arun wrote:
I think IG players would kill for LRBTs having side and rear armor upped to 14 for 50 extra points, as well as 1 extra hullpoint, the ability to DS, disembark stuff from reserve, better snapfiring damage output and regain the odd hullpoint back.

I had no clue Russes were that expensive. I've seen three guard tanks in a 500 point list on multiple occasions.

Still yes, checked the guard codex and you're right. With that perspective I'm more impressed than I was before.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here are some more crazy ideas to wargame.

Pushing a 100pt Dreadnought into a Warrior mob will force LD8/LD9 morale checks the remainder of the game unless your opponent commits another unit to peeling it away. Everyone is afraid of Gauss but one day a smart guy will figure out a way to get past it. Blind checks, Snap Shots, or some kind of save maybe?

Wraiths can be countered with a 10-man ASM squad, 2x Jump Librarians with Force Mauls/Digital Weapons and a Jump Chaplain to make sure everyone hits. I did some quick stats and it seems promising despite it's expense. If you add Psychic Shriek you may wipe them on the charge, and then that mini-star becomes a nightmare to everything else.

There's a few issues with this. First it's dependent on getting the charge off and not getting charged, not always easy. Second, you'd need to be running more than a single traditional CAD to fit all those HQ's in. Third, we're talking at a minimum nearly 500pts (assuming no extra wargear or weapons but jetpacks for the HQ's and a powerfist for the squad).

Now, on a charge, assuming no casualties at all and that the Wraiths do not have Whip Coils (which would allow them to strike first) nor RP, the squad, Pfist Sergeant, and Chaplain will inflict an average of 3.66 wounds on the Wraiths. The Librarians will inflict an average of 1.6 wounds (depending on allocation this can be gimmicked by applying the Force wounds to already wounded models).

So, under the most optimal of circumstances, leveraging a ~500pt unit, and favorably rounding both of those numbers up and assuming no wound allocation gimmicks, you'll kill 4 Wraiths. Not terrible, but you're investing twice the Wraith's value (and 4 FoC slots, one of which must be obtained from a 2nd detachment) to do so. If they've got whip coils, the efficacy is reduced, if the unit takes casualties before engaging, the efficacy is reduced, both of these are highly likely. Lets assume they've got Whip Coils and you lose 3 guys from the unit before engaging (such a unit would be high priority for shooting, but we'll just assume 3). By the time any of the SM's get to strike, they've already lost 6 or 7 models, and they on average inflict 1.5 wounds less (roughly one less Wraith dead) and the Wraiths hit back harder, and the next round of combat the Librarians only inflict an average of 1 wound (which again, may kill a Wraith outright or may get allocated to a Wraith with a wound already) and the rest of the unit inflicts an average of 1 wound, and so by the end of round 2 you're likely down to a Sergeant, 1 Assault Marine, 2 Librarians, and 1 Chaplain and likely still have 2 Wraiths left. If we continue on, yes, the SM unit eventually defeats the Wraiths, but has been heavily depleted, and ultimately you've used a ~500pt unit to defeat a 270pt unit.

Emperor help you if they brought 2 or 3 such units of Wraiths or if they were part of a Canoptek Harvest, or if the Wraiths get to charge.

So, this tailored unit that won't do terribly well against many other armies, is costing roughly twice what the Wraiths do and requiring multiple detachments, and is only really going to be effective under very specific conditions and won't be able to do it twice if there's another unit of Wraiths.

Land Speeders are not a hard counter but a 75pt Typhoon Speeder can go toe-to-toe with 3x Tomb Blades at 66pts, with greater range and firepower. They Jink, you don't.

Well, the Land Speeder wouldn't get any benefit out of Jink either way if the TB's have nebuloscopes

As is, even assuming no Decurion bonuses and not JInking, with two missile shots and a heavy bolter being shot into them, you'll average 0.96 wounds from a Land Speeder Typhoon. If they do have Decurion & Reclamation Legion bonuses and Jink,, the Typhoon will inflict an average of 0.37 wounds. Now, granted in can outrange the Tomb Blades, but the Tomb Blades are fast too, and one turboboost puts them just about anywhere they want to be. Once in optimal range, they can inflict 0.61 HP's on the Typhoon per turn even when Jinking, and 1.77 HP's if not Jinking.

Aside from the range advantage, it would appear that the Tomb Blades would have an advantage.

Don't forget the 13x Pistols and HoW, they count. And killing 4-5x Wraiths on a charge is definitely "not terrible". It might even be useful.

For Speeders, range advantage is something you need to exploit. One thing, as the Tomb Blades get whittled down, their firepower tails off. It's not a hard counter but Necrons have no hard counter except being swept in assault! If he really wants to jump into Rapid Fire range, hit him with a fast assault unit to deny Jink and armour saves. And then direct firepower with the Typhoons on exposed targets where the HB and Krak will shine. Have you heard the term "asymmetrical warfare"? Don't go toe-to-toe with Necrons. Exploit your advantages instead of bashing your fist against a brick wall.

I think the fact we're even discussing this shows that there are unexplored options out there. How exactly are these untouched Wraiths attacking ASM that have magically taken 3x casualties? Are they just hanging out getting shot for no reason inside the 24" engagement range of the Necrons? If they bring more Wraiths, bring more ASM, and bounce your HQs from squad to squad. Why aren't you looking for solutions yourself?

Anyways, as Polyranger said, you will want a lot of Heavy Bolters messing up everything at range. Attrition won't win the game but every little bit will help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
What sort of 400+ point minideaths can deal with wraiths and the rest of the army at the same time?

About 15x ID wounds will down a 5-strong Wraith squad. So it's a tall order but maybe not impossible. You also need to do it quick (1-2 rounds) so your unit isn't locked in combat the whole game. Or somehow get Hit and Run so you can refocus your unit if needed.

Snipers might have some utility too, they slip by the T5 and their low AP makes little difference due to the Invul save. I haven't looked at that yet though.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- A cost-effective way to deal with extremely resilient 3+/4+++ units?

I believe the biggest problem is that there is no such thing, outside of apocalypse.

Can you list a few cost effective and efficient ways of scrubbing out a blob of decurion immortals?

All of the usual MEQ killers are so much worse. Plasma and grav are 50% less effective vs necrons for example.

A cover ignoring str D blast is the only thing that comes to mind.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Don't forget the 13x Pistols and HoW, they count. And killing 4-5x Wraiths on a charge is definitely "not terrible". It might even be useful.

Hammer of Wrath applies if they use jump packs in the assault phase, but that shortens their movement phase, potentially leaving them out of distance, you may only get to use it some of the time depending on distances. I did forget the pistols though, yes that nets an average of 1 more wound.

For Speeders, range advantage is something you need to exploit. One thing, as the Tomb Blades get whittled down, their firepower tails off. It's not a hard counter but Necrons have no hard counter except being swept in assault! If he really wants to jump into Rapid Fire range, hit him with a fast assault unit to deny Jink and armour saves. And then direct firepower with the Typhoons on exposed targets where the HB and Krak will shine. Have you heard the term "asymmetrical warfare"? Don't go toe-to-toe with Necrons. Exploit your advantages instead of bashing your fist against a brick wall.

Again, the with range advantage, it'll likely only apply for one turn. Those Jetbikes can get just about anywhere on the table in one turn, and, as shown, if they're getting Decurion benefits, it's entirely likely that the Land Speeder will fail to do anything before the TB's can close range and engage. If we're having to involve a fast assault unit on top of this, then we're devoting an inordinate number of points to dealing with a relatively basic unit that really shouldn't have the resiliency to require this much killing power to successfully engage.

And that's really the whole point, Necrons can engage 1v1 with many if not most of their units and come out on top, whereas their opponents have to engage with superiority to have any chance of success, and if the Necrons engage with superiority there just isn't anything many opponents can do to escalate to match. There's just too much resiliency shrugging off too much killing power.

I think the fact we're even discussing this shows that there are unexplored options out there. How exactly are these untouched Wraiths attacking ASM that have magically taken 3x casualties?

While not a bad point to bring up, the Wraiths are much less likely to have taken casualties due to their increased resiliency, and while individually larger models, can often hide better because of the smaller total number of models. Their invul save also makes it so they don't have to worry as much about taking cover on the way in to engaging, they're very much a point-click-win unit.

, bring more ASM, and bounce your HQs from squad to squad. Why aren't you looking for solutions yourself?

You can only bring so many ASM to match. If you're in a tournament or league setting, you likely can't tailor your list in this manner. Trying to hop HQ's from unit to unit is incredibly complex and situational, and heavily dependent on not being engaged simultaneously by the Necron player while also having your units close enough for those HQ's to be able to bounce around and not already be locked in combat.

Ultimatley we're talking about the Necron player being able to bring a smaller force, drive them straight up without much of any thought, and engaging successfully under any but the worst circumstances, while the counter is to not only bring a far larger (pointswise) force, but to have to play it far better as well, and engage on the most favorable terms to emerge victorious. If that's not the definition of wildly imbalanced, I don't know what is.

Sure, some of these things might work some of the time. The problem is that we're paying far more points and having to play these units far more intelligently than the Necron player to come out on top, and even then it's not unlikely that all that's accomplished is mutual desctruction of a disproportionate number of points, leaving the Necron player with more to throw at you after you've blown your load.

Vak, it will take victories on the table to start convincing people, as they say seeing is believing. As with most creative challenges the solutions may not be immediately apparent. But we all need to start thinking laterally. Has anyone tried the Assassinorum formation to fight Decurion? I really don't think we've exhausted all our options, just the ones we've already tried.

I actually agree with you about "having to play these units far more intelligently than the Necron player to come out on top". Decurion maybe is too strong to be used in casual games. That's similar to a lot of other units across a lot of different armies. But in competition it's your job to play more intelligently, to come out on top -- that's the essence of what determines who the best are, and that's the whole point.

So for now I'm witholding judgement. As with all things, time will tell.

Well, crons are a very forgiving and easy to play now. Good for new players. We need new blood, so i guess it's fine.

One thing to note as well that there is no way to negate the Reanimation Protocols. If you use an ID weapon, it just drops it by one, but if there is, say, a cryptek in a big block of warriors they'll still have a 5++/4++ against a D template.

That's silly.

Anways, reading a few comments here, it seems that several people believe the decurion has a place given the various shenanagins available to other top tier armies and stupid combos someone abusing the "Imperial Faction" can produce, but there's a key difference here; the Decurion is a fluffy, straightforwards mega-power right in the codex requiring little imagination to create. A total fluff bunny will end up with a codex-annihilating force. Part of me is pleased with that, but it also represents a big structural problem; most Imperial armies these days are at the lower end of the power spectrum; the stupid changes to the allied matrix provides great opportunity for insanity, but it's always really obvious to both the person doing it and to the other guy when the army gets unpacked that said player is a cheesy git. Necrons, much like Eldar are so innately powerful that even a nice list will be very powerful, and playing to a distinct theme will result in the annihilation of their foes via the Decurion (might like a Wraith list is; totally fluffy, stupid powerful).

I want the rules to reinforce themed armies, encourage and reward them, but not at the expensive of massive codex/formation imbalance.

Honestly, these formations need to learn a thing from early Apocalypse; have a points cost commensurate to their power. In what universe is Strike Force Ultra (termies with hammer of wrath when they charge out of a transport and can run+shoot after deepstriking) equal to making your entire army almost impossible to kil?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
One thing to note as well that there is no way to negate the Reanimation Protocols. If you use an ID weapon, it just drops it by one, but if there is, say, a cryptek in a big block of warriors they'll still have a 5++/4++ against a D template.

That's silly.

I think you need to check the RP rules again.

RP rolls cannot be taken against str D hits.

Str D and ID are not the same thing.

That's why I said str D blast, and "removes from play" blasts, are some of the few effective methods at removing a necron squad.

The title of this is ridiculously childish and condescending, and I have no idea why no one has mentioned it yet.

No, I don't feel bad. Necrons are incredibly resilient - and decently killy. This comes at a high unit tax, inability to take battle brothers, and lack of psychic powers.

That's the problem with referring to things in a vacuum - the Necrons biggest weaknesses is the lack of synergy and buffs in those two areas. Or is someone going to tell me that Doom, Guide, Invisibility, Iron Arm, etc. isn't useful.
Yes, they're hard to kill, and that tends to leave a stronger impression than being killy. But what you see is what you get in a very absolute sense.

Now if we can do without the rude attitude towards Necron players, that'd be great. -And you'd seem emotionally older than 13.

Thing is, the ally matrix is so poorly implemented thst there's almost no way to please everyone.

If you aim to balance codex vs. codex, people that want to play competitively codexes without ally shenanigans (like orks, nids, tau, necrons) will complain because they're stuck with what's in their codex while their opponents can cherry pick grom half a dozen different codexes.

If you aim to balance taking ally shenanigans into account, people that just want to play faction X because they like it will complain that they need to ally in order to compete.

Ferros wrote:
The title of this is ridiculously childish and condescending, and I have no idea why no one has mentioned it yet.

Because, and I say this as someone with over ten thousand points of Necrons and only six models of anything else, he's right to phrase it that way.

The Necron codex is high powered as is specifically because it has little to no buffing options. No unit sergeants or psykers, for example. No specialists. Nevertheless, there's now a very diverse range of options for building strong lists that can cover a wide range of themes and deal with anything well except for maybe FMC spam.

The reclamation legion has some very nice and fluffy command benefits, and the other formations are good list building tools. It's not a perfect setup, but including CAD as an option too means there's interesting flexibility and benefits.

The Decurion though? Army wide free buff worth a minimum of 30 points per unit. Probably more since there's no need to pay for a character and the buff stays no matter who dies.

Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

No unit sergeants or psykers, for example.

Amusingly that's a point in that favor in some cases, CSM has nothing they can gain boons from and they don't rely on the sarge for any special rules or to deal with anything that may fail.

The Decurion though? Army wide free buff worth a minimum of 30 points per unit. Probably more since there's no need to pay for a character and the buff stays no matter who dies.

Should've made it stop on death of overlord or warlord, so that it would at least have some sort of counter (or if warlord is in reserve).

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

 jasper76 wrote:

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

Preach it, man. I wouldn't feel bad in your situation. Though, at my local shop, I do rather feel bad. I play against fluffy AM lists, Khorne Daemons, CSM, and Farsight most of the time, so even a simple Decurion list has proven a bit much for them to handle.

The biggest hindrance to a non-decurion formation heavy list, from a list building perspective, is that Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are non-formation choices, and Lychguard and Tomb Blades are Reclamation Legion. You can get quite a lot back with either a Resurgence Decurion from White Dwarf or a CAD, but you lose out heavily on the spammability of Elites choices.

Of course, you could just make a Destroyer Cult or Royal Court your primary and go unbound, if your meta isn't one of those that are reactionary against unbinding.

Methinks I'll take another look at the Zarathusa and Anrakyr formations, though I suspect they'll be overly unweildy for the benefits.

 jasper76 wrote:

changemod wrote:
The Decurion though...Utterly unsuitable for a casual game as your opponent won't get several hundred extra points for his army. Still absurd in a power gaming tournament environment because whilst your opponents will be able to cope, they at least had to budget for their broken combos.

So yes, you should feel bad.

I regularly, in 'casual' games am facing Imperial Knights and the IoM's very broad spectrum of LoW optons (which is what IKs should be), IoM allies out the ying-yang, Eldar allies (now new and improved with the clowns), and Daemon Factory lists (the kind that add half your opponents army points to his army before the game is done).

So no, I don't feel bad. I feel like I'm reaching par.

Now while i understand that and agree with that part, As Ive said when this subject gets brought up, considering all the other 7th codexs were getting toned down and now the rumors are we will see SM, Tau, possibly Eldar this year, all of which hopefully are getting toned down to the 7th level (Pre necrons) if they get toned down like eveyone wants wont that then leave necrons as the issue?

The hope shouldve been everything was getting balanced and fun theme lists , not oh look something else thats on level with the other crazy stuff.

From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

What I suspect will be more likely to happen, is Decurion-style detachment options will become the norm with each codex. Its in GW's interest to do so, for obvious reasons.

 jasper76 wrote:
From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

Many thought the same would happen to Necrons, but alas...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
From looking at the rumors for this new Khorne codex, I'll believe that SM and Eldar are toned down when I see it.

Many thought the same would happen to Necrons, but alas...

I mean, all of the cheese Necrons had was toned down.

They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..